cultural relavance to POTC

Okay, let's try to figure out EVERYTHING that's going on in the "touch of destiny" scene. I'm wondering now if it's the most important scene in the entire movie.

1. Tia is messing with what looks like crab parts. She looks up surprised, but happy to see Jack. He says hello but freaks out a little seeing her eyeballs. But he smiles at her and they seem to be comfortable with each other. Then she sees Will...

2. This is where things get weird (other than the eyes). She freezes when she sees Will and says the famous line and his name. Will just looks confused as hell, no visible attraction yet. But Tia seems to be coming onto him. Jack raises his eyebrow at this and steers her away from him.

3. Oh my gosh! Watch what happens next! Most of us concentrate on the fact Jack says, "There won't be any knowing here...I thought I knew you." Will is leaning down like he's going to kiss Tia! I swear I'm not seeing it because I'm a J/Eer. Watch the thing. They look like they're about to kiss, but Will snaps out of it. Tia then insults Jack that he was a sucky lover. Will takes a breath and Jack repeats Tia's request to sit at the table.

4. Will seems to be smiling when he's walking over. I don't know if he's just gotten hard or what, but she starts feeling his face and he seems taken aback, but a little turned on by it. I wonder if even though Liz is sex-starved if she ever comes on to Will? But Tia turns to Jack to do business and he brings her the monkey.

5. Tia lets the monkey go and says how it's a fair payment. Monkey runs off to you know who. Will seems to have snapped out of it and is back to business and shows Tia the drawing of the key. Tia visibly seems upset by the drawing, but knows what it is. She immediately asks Jack why the compass won't take him to it. I think she knows exactly why Jack wants the key. Jack has a guilty look on his face. He says, "Maybe, why?" Tia laughs at him and accuses him oh so famously of either not knowing what he wants, or wanting and yet not wanting to want something. Will seems surprised Jack got the compass from Tia.

6. Tia explains the key opens a chest and asks Will if the chest is what he seeks. (Interesting) Will has a look like, "I don't know what the hell's going on anymore." The crew asks what's inside.

7. Ah. The infamous "what vexes all men" section. The crew lean forward, knowing something interesting is going to be said and Tia gives an exciting opening to Davy's life. "Until he met the one thing that vexes all men." Will here has this big grin on his face and asks what vexes all men. I've always found it strange that he bothers to ask when everyone else seems to have at least a guess. Tia strokes his hand but he's still not getting it. Jack gets fed up with the stupid answers and says the obvious.

8. Tia says Davy fell in love and Will's eyes seem to flinch, almost as if he has a secret. I don't think this is about Tia, but maybe it's making him think of Liz, whom he possibly forgot about a few seconds ago. The woman is described as "changing, harsh, and untamable as the sea." She says, "him never stopped loving her," and it cuts to Will who doesn't look like he's enjoying himself anymore. He asks, "What exactly did he put in the chest" rather impatiently. And this is Will, ladies. He's not an ass. He's getting upset by the love story for whatever reason and tries to get Tia to get to the point.

9. The reveal! It's Davy's heart, as Tia says so tenderly. She explains the rest of it and Will stands up and accuses Jack of knowing the story the whole time, which we know he did. He doesn't seem mad per se, but he seems annoyed with Jack. Jack admits he didn't know where the chest was, but know they do, so it's a good thing they came. Jack is getting anxious to leave, but Tia asks to see his hand. Jack looks scared.

10. Anybody know why Jack tries to make light of his black spot by saying, "My eyesight's just as good as ever, just so you know?" Tia goes back into the hut, mumbling. She comes back with the jar of dirt and Jack looks confused, but Tia's serious. She says, "If you don't want it, give it back." Jack cradles it and refuses, which makes Tia smile. Will says it seems they have a need to find the Flying Dutchman with a resigned smile on his face. Maybe this is his attempt to be a little nicer to her after he lost patience with her earlier.

Maybe all those sections will help someone gather some insight.

yes... i do agree this is probably the most important, or telling, scene in the film as far as what will happen later on.

1. crab claws--- i've a feeling we'll see more crabs. 😉

I definately agree that Will is, perhaps without meaning to be, attracted to Tia. She has a rather overwhelming personality, and i doubt any man would be able to really escape her wiles. she also seems incredibly proud/pleased that she made a man love her enough to cut his heart out. she's good at this seduction thing. black teeth or not, she gets what she wants.

here's my main question point--- what is the vibe between Jack and Tia, really? Because the look on Jack's face when he walks in suggests to me that he was, at one time, essentially man-candy for Tia rather than in a relationship with her. Jack remains relatively nervous and toned-down during the meeting, and he's got shifty eye syndrome. Is this because they parted on bad terms, or simply because Jack knows how powerful/unpredictable Tia can be? Or because he knows she is a goddess but doesn't want her to tell everyone else? Or because he is anxious to explain to (or hide from) her the trouble he is really in?

I think it's clear that Tia comes on to Will because his "destiny" means something personal to her--- whether that's davy's freedom, or her own freedom.

I also think Will sort of gets Tia and thats why he doesnt venture a guess on 'what vexes all men'... he doesnt have time to play her games and riddles, he's an action man, he needs to keep things on track. Jack, despite knowing the story and all the correct answers, allows Tia to have her moment.

I also think a part that is important (but often overlooked as comic relief) is Ragetti's line about "the dichotomy of good and evil." thats essentially what the whole trilogy is about--- how do you define good and evil? Can someone be good while still doing bad things, and vice versa? Are the characters who appear to be good (in society's eyes) actually doing the worst things/ have the worst motives? who are the good guys? etc. the fact that the phrase was thrown in there, i think, foreshadows that Will's destiny will revolve around that question a fair amount.
because think about it--- what vexes all of US? deciding who is good and bad, which actions (ahem, kisses) are good or bad, trying to figure out who has the good heart underneath and who has an evil streak, etc. so what vexes us is clearly exactly what Ragetti said, while in the film, everyone is clearly vexed by a woman (and generally its the same one, haha).

willothewisp --

As for Jack's "My eyesight's as good as ever, just so you know..." this is how I interpreted it.

The Black Spot is a bit of skin rotted away, and I dunno why I thought this, but... you know Jack, he's stereotypically always thinking about sex. And if a bit of Jack is rotting away, well then Jack's essence is rotting away, and what's Jack's essence? Oh yeah... *that*. And I suppose we've always connected *that* and eyes, ("Don't do that, you'll go blind!"😉 So, if *that*'s rotting away, and Jack's going away, he's decaying before their very eyes!

"Well my eyesight's as good as ever, just so you know..." Jack's saying, it isn't that big of a deal, remember folks I'm Cap'n Jack Sparrow! A measley little rot isn't going to harm me *there*!

Does that make any sense? Or am just trying to explain something funny for me and it's all turning out badly?

No, that explains it! Thanks. I didn't think he was talking just to be talking.

Kate, I didn't think that maybe Will was also resisting Tia in some way by not playing her games. True, Jack is very low-key and it may be a bit of mistrust and the fact he knows she's unpredictable. Keep in mind too, he's going there for help. He's not going to go in and demand it pointing a gun to her head. He's going to be fairly nice and charming to her to get her to do what he wants, and that's give them some clue on what to do. That's how I interpreted Jack's behavior. Plus, he's seeing Barbossa's stuff laying around, gets called out about the compass not working for him....nothing's really going his way right at the moment. He's probably not in a good mood.

it seems that liz and Tia are almost the same person sorta. Tia loved Davy, Liz loved Will. Rumors had it that tia left Davy for another sailor possibly Jack, Davy became a monster, liz is falling for another man too (Jack). Will stabd the heart and becomes the new Davy. That is sorta how Tia put the story only talking about Calypso, Will seems to listen and it is kinda like forshadowing his love life. That is probably another reason Tia came on to him he is just like Davy, and she is supposably Calypso. That is another reason why I think Will is in a trance taht he almost kisses her because of his 'destiny' I hope that made some sense but that is kinda how i see it

I always thought that Jack said "my eye sight as good as ever just so you know" because gibbs and pintel and reghetti made the "blackspot!" and twirl around like it is contagious and Jack saw them. But i like what you said siriuswriter it makes perfect sense.

jackismyboo, do you think then that Will is "fated" to be with Tia? You said that could explain why he almost kisses her because of his destiny. You think maybe he has this feeling that he's supposed to be with her? That would be very interesting.

Sorta! She is Calypso and he is destined to be the new Davy. She had loved Davy. and love doesn't fade so quickly i mean if it did Davy wouldn't of tore his heart out for her. She is Calypso and she was or still is davy's lover and she knows that Will is going to become the new fishface. So yea I think Will is kinda fated to be with tia in the end. He may love Liz now but i think in the end Calypso will become his new lover. It makes sense to me idk about you but ted and terry one of them said that the end somehow the audience will agree who the couple is or in this case couples.

What's that about the couples? They said at the end of DMC you know who the couple(s) is going to be? That's very strange because in their commentary, they're very vague about Liz's feelings towards both Will and Jack and they actually commend Will for being more concerned about making Liz feel better by asking if anything could be done, although they both kind of laugh and say he didn't expect to actually have to do anything.

Well, on a non-J/E view of the parallel between Davy, Calypso, Will and Elizabeth, it could be that while DJ and Calypso made poor choices, that Will and Elizabeth will figure out a way to over-come their issues and to make the choice to fight for what they have together.

I know, I know...most of you think that what Will and Elizabeth have together is absolutely zip, but not everyone feels that way. 😉 And actually, their battle to save their relationship would be culturally relevant in today's society, where people divorce or break-up with each other over even smaller problems than what Will and Elizabeth face.

If they can over-come all those problems and still love each other, it gives hope to the idea that maybe the struggle and pain of relationships is really worth it in the end.

Does any of that make sense?

About the curiosity scene, did any of you get the idea that Jack may have been slightly jealous of Tia's reaction to Will? I don't mean jealous because he has romantic feelings for her, but jealous simply because he was basically brushed aside in favor of Will? Or was Jack alarmed by Tia's reaction to Will's presence?

Apologies for any spelling and grammar mistakes. 😄

i think Jack was more alarmed than jealous. he's captain jack sparrow, at a snap of his fingers Tia could probably be back in his arms. However, he's probably seen the "touch of destiny" act before on the part of Tia, and doesnt want her to turn fortune teller when he's in a rush.

I think there was a little bit more blow to his pride than actual jealousy. He's Captain Jack Sparrow. Women are supposed to go nuts over him and here's Tia flirting with Will the eunuch, in Jack's mind. That whole, "I thought I knew you," seems to be a cry for attention that gets shot down.

I didn't mean romantic jealousy...I meant, do you think he's jealous that the attention is off of him for even a split second? Of course, he could just be alarmed...he seems awfully quick to try to seperate Will and Tia from each other.

At any rate...I had something else to say and I totally blanked on it. Hmmm....Old age does that to you. 😛

Being hungry for attention from Tia would bring about a different reaction than alarm, I would think. He seems very concerned about the possibility of Will and Tia. Of course, he's probably just trying to keep things on task and also protect Will. Tia's weird, no question, and if Jack couldn't handle her, I bet anything he doesn't think Will could. Since he came with the intent of getting information that would save him, he's probably just trying to keep everyone on track rather than, "I'm Jack, look at me me ME."

i really doubt Jack is an attention craver! I think like you said he saw the Will and Tia connection and decided to end it.

The look on his face was " what?" like he knows something and also a tinge of jealousy

Remember what Jack says before he enters Tia's cabin. He remarks about how untrustworthy she is. Essentially, she'd stab a friend in the chest, rather than in the back. He doesn't trust her farther than he can throw her. That being said, while Will has certainly come a long way in DMC in terms of learning who to trust and who not to, he's still a babe in the woods in terms of experience when compared to Jack.
I think it's fairly safe to say that Tia is a free agent in terms of who's side she is on, and that she can bend peope to her will. My opinion is that Jack understands that Tia has something up her sleeve when it comes to Will, and he's attempting to prevent it. Recall that Will is Bootstrap Bill's son, a man whom Jack essentially was at one time, a very dear friend to. While Will and Jack may not always see eye to eye, for the most part, they have each other's backs when the ocassion calls for it.
But that interpretation works only if you're of the opinion that Tia Dalma cannot be trusted and that she's manipulating the fates of the key players to accomplish her own selfish goals.

Well, it even works if you believe she can be trusted. Jack and Will both gain from seeing her. Jack to learn the location of the key and Will to get some background information that will eventually help him get Liz out of jail. Tia coming on to Will is not helping things along and is making what should be a simple detour into a complicated one.
For now, I don't interpret Tia as evil, but as fickle. She seems like a good person but only to a certain point. Jack doesn't seem to like that but he doesn't know anyone else who can help at this point.
Ha ha, you could go the Jack-is-so-honorable route that a lot of people tend to go and say Jack breaking Will and Tia up is actually out of respect for Liz since she is engaged to Will at this point. But that's not my opinion.....lol.

I agree, savvysparrow. I don't think Will and Jack are friends per se, but they have a respect for the other one and acknowledge the fact they are stronger together than they are apart. Throw Liz in there and the three of them are unstoppable.