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Mace and Maul vs. Dooku and Kol
Combatants: Mace Windu, and Darth Maul, both at their respective peaks (RotS, and TPM) versus Count Dooku, as seen in RotS, and Kol Skywalker during the Legacy series (before his death).
Setting: Inside the Jedi Praxeum, Yavin IV.
Match type: No holds barred, an all out battle with no restrictions.
This is actually an interesting fight. I think by ROTS (and i could be wrong) that mace would be able to defeat Dooku. I mean it could go either way, but I'd lean a bit towards Mace. However, I don't think Kol would be surprised by or be unfamiliar with Maul's lightsaber (physical style and fighting) being as Nihl had something similar in his cane - mainly just that its closer to a staff than a traditional sword. Not that that will change the tide of the battle, but i believe that when people fight maul might be thrown off if they haven't seen a double bladed saber and what it can do. I read almost everything you provided for Kol, but i still cant get a grasp on how well he fights compared to the likes of Maul, and I don't want to say Mace and Maul from a lack of knowledge of Kol's fighting ability, but knowing what Maul can do i think he MAY be the better technical fighter. But as you know that doesn't always provide a victory (a'la OB1). But from what was said in regard to Kol, and that he's from the more powerful Order, respectively, I think he may be able to finish off Maul before Mace could finish off Dooku. After that, he could help Dooku against Mace "BMF" Windu, as Vaapad wouldn't be much help against a Jedi (although shatterpoint obviously would.) I'll go with...Dooku and Kol, but by only a hair.
Fair enough?
Assuming that Kol could do what he did in Legacy again he could take these two alone. Nihl's probably about as strong as Maul and Kol took him down (after Nihl attacked the other Jedi) in a second. Dooku's good but nothing he's done puts him anywhere close to someone who fights over a dozen Sith at once and kills 7+. Add in Mace and it doesn't even matter if he can beat Dooku nor not - Maul will go down to Kol in less than 10 seconds and then together Dooku will go down like a b1tch.
Please don't make a big to do about those lame ass Sith scrubs losers that follow Krayt, we see them getting killed CONSTANTLY in Legacy. Cade Skywalker and Shado kill some as padawans at the Battle of Ossus, we see random Imperial Knights killing them, we see random Jedi killing them, hell we even see Storm troopers killing them. They are the Legacy eras equivalent to the OT (I can't hit the broad side of a barn) Storm Troopers, a nuisance at best.
The only Sith of real consequence in the era are the ones in Krayts inner circle that being Talon, Nihl, Maladi...essentially the named ones. And we can't prove that they are even really that good since:
A. Kol was able to hold Nihl and a large majority of the scrubs until he was distracted. Is that a testament to his power or their shittyness.
B. Nihl was beaten by Cade in Legacy 6, Cade who had been out of practice for years, apparently lost his own saber/ doesn't use it, is using Deathsticks which weaken his connection to the force and yet he was able to beat Nihl in a dark side tantrum.
C. There leader and apparently the strongest of them was getting owned by Sith spirits, these same spirits who Mace namely could likely compete with and in most cases beat.
Originally posted by darthsith19
Assuming that Kol could do what he did in Legacy again he could take these two alone.
Right, and I can jump off the top of the Empire State Building with wings made out of rolling paper, and fly.
Nihl's probably about as strong as Maul
I would suppose that you have evidence to support this claim? Oh, he severed Wolf Sazen's hand. Wonderful. Darth Maul made one of the greatest Jedi we've seen in the movies look like a children's play toy in comparison (and dominated almost entirely the two-on-one portion of the duel, where Jinn was receiving assistance from an above average padawan), dominated dozens of Black Sun guards, Migheela, the Nightsister (and showed a good proficiency in defense, and endurance), and then took down Alexi Garyn; among various other displays of adeptness.
Not only that, but he's labeled as "one of the deadliest Sith apprentices in history" (The Phantom Menace Visual Guide). I don't recall Darth Nihl showing any skill that puts him on par with Darth Maul. Darth Talon would've been a more accurate choice (in terms of lightsaber prowess), perhaps.
Hell, If I remember correctly, Cade was able to combat (and defeat) Nihl when he hadn't picked up a lightsaber in nearly a decade, and even then, he only had training up to ten years, at most (deduced by general youngling clan age, and in the New Jedi Order, the youngest clan age noted was five years; but, times might have changed, so we'll give him an extra year, which still doesn't account for much). As well, Jariah Syn shot him -- real impressive that he can't even perceive other threats in the area.
Dooku's good but nothing he's done puts him anywhere close to someone who fights over a dozen Sith at once and kills 7+.
[Query]: How good were any of those Sith? Indeed, it would seem that they're severely lacking in combative skill. If you recall:
A fourteen year old padawan, Cade Skywalker, was able to seemingly effortlessly take down one of those Sith minions with a bare foot kick. In addition to that, he was able to slice his way through several of those lackeys with another padawan of the same age, even when outnumbered:
One could only assume that they don't possess godly skill, and, at best, have training and ability comparative to that of youngling (like Ashla). Now, I'm not trying to take anything away from Kol's achievement, as it's undeniably remarkable, but based on that alone, he'll be able to take down Maul in 'less than 10 seconds', much less both Maul and Dooku by himself? Yeah, right. And those scans are great, except for the fact you leave out several key elements that turn down the extraordinary volume of the feat, but don't worry; because as you can see, I've provided such.
And, obviously I know that Maul, and Dooku are not on the same team, I'm only making my post in regards to the fact that darthsith was under the opposite impression.
Originally posted by Count Makashi
But if Kol is anywhere near in power as Luke, he could win against all 3 combined.
"Killer" Kol Skywalker is far from being remotely as talented, and able as NJO, and beyond Luke is. I don't even know why you'd mention that, as I'm not the type that makes completely idiotic, and unfair threads.
Edit:
Wow, Styles, seems we both like to post the same things, except this time yours came before mine, lol.
I agree, I mean, Bane verbally bitchslapped Krayt, and Krayt just whined and said "Nuh-uh!"
I don't think those Sith are really anything special. However, even the best can be beaten with a surprise attack, and, seeing as how Kol is a Skywalker, he may still be really good.
I think it still begs for more proof, though, at least to say that he would beat Maul.
No one is denying that Kol is skilled, or anything of the sort; however, that he's good enough to take down Darth Maul in mere 'seconds' is probably the second biggest bunch of brainless bullshit I've seen all week (and that's saying a lot, considering in the past debates I've been in). Then to go so far as to claim that he could take down both of Sidious' apprentices by himself is even worse than that. Congratulations, darthsith! You've earned the 'Most Imbecilic Post of the Week' Award, don't keep up the bad work.
Damn editing.
Please don't make a big to do about those lame ass Sith scrubs losers that follow Krayt, we see them getting killed CONSTANTLY in Legacy. Cade Skywalker and Shado kill some as padawans at the Battle of Ossus, we see random Imperial Knights killing them, we see random Jedi killing them, hell we even see Storm troopers killing them. They are the Legacy eras equivalent to the OT (I can't hit the broad side of a barn) Storm Troopers, a nuisance at best.The only Sith of real consequence in the era are the ones in Krayts inner circle that being Talon, Nihl, Maladi...essentially the named ones. And we can't prove that they are even really that good since:
A. Kol was able to hold Nihl and a large majority of the scrubs until he was distracted. Is that a testament to his power or their shittyness.
B. Nihl was beaten by Cade in Legacy 6, Cade who had been out of practice for years, apparently lost his own saber/ doesn't use it, is using Deathsticks which weaken his connection to the force and yet he was able to beat Nihl in a dark side tantrum.
C. There leader and apparently the strongest of them was getting owned by Sith spirits, these same spirits who Mace namely could likely compete with and in most cases beat.
A. Sazen was a fairlt strong Jedi and Nilh wtf pwnd him, this speaks for Nihl's skill. Krayt we know is above Nihl. I'm not sure exactly how strong Talon is. Their the top 3 Legacy era Sith.
B. Was he still using Death Sticks at that time? And at any rate he was still very strong, has a lot of potential, trained as a Jedi for some time, and as a Bounty Hunter was strong, too. Getting defeated by Cade is hardly a bad thing.
C. Proof that Mace could beat them? And they were only beating him by controlling his armor. They could do the same toi Mace is Mace was wearing the armor.
Right, and I can jump off the top of the Empire State Building with wings made out of rolling paper, and fly.
I would suppose that you have evidence to support this claim? Oh, he severed Wolf Sazen's hand. Wonderful. Darth Maul made one of the greatest Jedi we've seen in the movies look like a children's play toy in comparison (and dominated almost entirely the two-on-one portion of the duel, where Jinn was receiving assistance from an above average padawan), dominated dozens of Black Sun guards, Migheela, the Nightsister (and showed a good proficiency in defense, and endurance), and then took down Alexi Garyn; among various other displays of adeptness.Not only that, but he's labeled as "one of the deadliest Sith apprentices in history" (The Phantom Menace Visual Guide). I don't recall Darth Nihl showing any skill that puts him on par with Darth Maul. Darth Talon would've been a more accurate choice (in terms of lightsaber prowess), perhaps.
Hell, If I remember correctly, Cade was able to combat (and defeat) Nihl when he hadn't picked up a lightsaber in nearly a decade, and even then, he only had training up to ten years, at most (deduced by general youngling clan age, and in the New Jedi Order, the youngest clan age noted was five years; but, times might have changed, so we'll give him an extra year, which still doesn't account for much). As well, Jariah Syn shot him -- real impressive that he can't even perceive other threats in the area.
A fourteen year old padawan, Cade Skywalker, was able to seemingly effortlessly take down one of those Sith minions with a bare foot kick. In addition to that, he was able to slice his way through several of those lackeys with another padawan of the same age, even when outnumbered:
One could only assume that they don't possess godly skill, and, at best, have training and ability comparative to that of youngling (like Ashla). Now, I'm not trying to take anything away from Kol's achievement, as it's undeniably remarkable, but based on that alone, he'll be able to take down Maul in 'less than 10 seconds', much less both Maul and Dooku by himself?
I know those Sith, for the most part, weren't that great.
Weren't that great is an understatement, I'm pretty damn confident that if prepubescent kids with little training and help from the force could hack them up so easily, that I could beat the shit out of most of those lames.
But taking on that many at once and taking out so many of them is still very impressive. Their definitely above Stormtroopers, though, they've killed Imperial Knights who'd destroy Stormtroopers
When? I only recall Talon killing Sai's protecting Imp. Knight, and Kratys "named" entourage killing the fake Fel's guards.
A. Sazen was a fairly strong Jedi and Nilh wtf pwnd him, this speaks for Nihl's skill.
Proof? The only times we see Wolf Sazen fighting he either dies or gets his ass beat.
Krayt we know is above Nihl. I'm not sure exactly how strong Talon is. Their the top 3 Legacy era Sith .
Thats not saying alot
B. Was he still using Death Sticks at that time?
Yup, Luke lectures him about it an hour prior to the battle
And at any rate he was still very strong, has a lot of potential, trained as a Jedi for some time, and as a Bounty Hunter was strong, too. Getting defeated by Cade is hardly a bad thing.
Yeah it is, getting beat by an out of practice, drug addict with only a few years of lightsaber training is pathetic especially considering Nihl is a Sith and specifically on of Krayts "Hands" who has everyday of his life to train, study and engage in Lightsaber combat with the large majority of the remaining Jedi in the galaxy. I don't care what his last name is, its still sad Nihl got his ass beat.
C. Proof that Mace could beat them?
Hence why I said: Likely
And they were only beating him by controlling his armor.
He was overpowered by a Sith spell, and as Jollyjim said got "Verbally ***** slapped" by Bane and only pouted.
They could do the same toi Mace is Mace was wearing the armor.
Proof? But I guess Aneddue and ancient Sith Lord knows all the inner workings of the Vong armour 🙄
Some points may be repetitive, but deal with it, because both Ac's and my post basically said the same things, save for a few things here, and there. And, of course, because I can't let things go unresponded to when directed by me, even if answered already.
Originally posted by darthsith19
I know those Sith, for the most part, weren't that great.
No, they were horrible on the grand scale. To the untrained eye, they don't even appear to be force sensitive, or trained due to their extreme lack of ability.
Doubtful, how is this relevant to anything that I said?
Obviously you've missed the point. You said that Kol could overcome the odds of beating two of Sidious' apprentices, Darth Maul and Count Dooku respectively. My retort was aimed at making the point that that's as ridiculous as what I said.
Clearly, you need to learn how to comprehend.
Nihl went down in a second - Jinn lasted 30. Huge difference.
Nihl also couldn't defeat, and was defeated by, Cade Skywalker, a man who had been out of practice with the weapon he'd been using for seven years, and even then, only had a small amount of training, which like I said, would've been ten years, at best.
That's rather indicative that Nihl isn't as good as you'd like to make him out to be. Not only that, but as Styles pointed out, he'd been using deathsticks which lessen your potential in the Force permanently, as far as I recall, so it wouldn't matter if he had been using them at the time; although, as we saw, he just traded the Jedi they'd captured for some before embarking on their journey to Vendexa. Plus, before you say "but, Advent it isn't a bad thing", AcStyles has already shown otherwise, so the point still stands, and obviously needs to be repeated.
So, there's your difference, because Qui-Gon had been practicing constantly for sixty years, and was noted as being an exceptional combatant; whereas Nihl has proved only his maladroitness thus far.
I don't really know a lot about Nihl except he wtf pwnd Sazen and Saven is a pretty strong Jedi.
Sazen may possess some capabilities, but he's been owned by force lightning almost every time we see him; not that it means he sucks, but it certainly doesn't say speak well for his nonexistent case.
Cade was a strong Jedi even at that point and that Sith was focusing on tkaing down Kol.
Sure, he was, because he couldn't see a young boy flinging his foot around like the Karate Kid, even when to shadow kick him like he did, he would've had to see him beforehand, since Cade came from the front, and there was ample viewing room.
Anyways, I've noticed that you didn't acknowledge how either Shado, or Cade took down one of those lackeys with ease (second scan), and then cut their way through another two, at the very least. And regardless of if Cade was strong, he had a modest amount of mentoring, and was still a padawan; now, for the fact that you considered them to be on par with PT Jedi is absurd, because no fourteen year old Jedi could overwhelm them effortlessly, as Cade did.
Putting them on the level of a Youngling is ridiculous
Zett Jukassa, a ten year old padawan, was able to hack his way through several clone troopers, and injured one of those, who just happened to be an experienced clone commander. He's shown more skill than these incompetent 'Sith' (termed loosely). If AcStyles was being true in saying that Stormtroopers have taken down these fools (and he hasn't ever lied, to my knowledge), then it's apparent that they really are inept.
their not great but are probably on par with a avg. PT Jedi Knight.
So, is that a logical deduction? Or just something you pulled from your ass? There's no need to answer really, as it's undoubtedly the latter. I'd love to see Shado Vao take down one 'average Jedi Knight' (in the prime of the Jedi, mind you), let alone three with just Cade.
By this type of logic, a teenage Cade Skywalker can take down a Jedi Knight with only exerting enough energy to jump, and send a foot to the face. Again, your assertions are completely baseless.
I guess Kol might not be able to take out Maul in less than 10 seconds but he could definately take Maul out
Didn't I already ask you for viable evidence? All you're doing is making misleading statements without any foundation to them. Nothing we've seen puts Kol over Darth Maul. Your 'Sith lackey' theory holds no water.
before Mace vs. Dooku is concluded and then he and Dooku together would pwn Mace.
This isn't Star Wars according to darthsith's moronic reasoning. Perhaps if it were, you'd have more of a chance arguing your point. But, since it's not -- you don't.
Weren't that great is an understatement, I'm pretty damn confident that if prepubescent kids with little training and help from the force could hack them up so easily, that I could beat the shit out of most of those lames.
When? I only recall Talon killing Sai's protecting Imp. Knight, and Kratys "named" entourage killing the fake Fel's guards.
Proof? The only times we see Wolf Sazen fighting he either dies or gets his ass beat.
Thats not saying alot
Thats not saying alot
Yup, Luke lectures him about it an hour prior to the battle
He was overpowered by a Sith spell, and as Jollyjim said got "Verbally ***** slapped" by Bane and only pouted.
Proof? But I guess Aneddue and ancient Sith Lord knows all the inner workings of the Vong armour
Lol, right, like your anywhere near the strength of a Padawan even, if those Sith were that weak they wouldn't even be Sith. Their definately greater to "not that great" that "worse than xxXAcStylesXxx".
As I said I'm pretty damn confident I'm stronger then a kid who based on his comic portrayal in Legacy #1 is a twig, the fact that he managed to seemingly effortlessly kill these scrubs makes me think I and really any average high schooler who works out could beat the shit out of them, with the force or not.
Those were real guards that they took,
Did I say they weren't? The point was it was TALON alone who did it, she has a name thus she is some what skilled.
where did you hear fake Fel's Guards were still Imperial Knights.
Why wouldn't they be? In Legacy #7 we see that one of them, the black one, is actually Roan Fel's cousin and he was infact a full fledged Imp. Knight.
And they got owned badly.
By people with names ...do you see my point?
He and his Padawan were the only survivors out of a convection of Jedi that was ambushed by a Sith sneak attack.
I'd hardly call four Jedi metting a convention and the key word was "sneak" attack.
Being bale tp pwn even an avg. Jedi in < 10 seconds is impressive.
I'm gonna assume your saying "Being able to." And no its not really, I'd guess by that logic you'd call the droids on Geonosis gods cause they pwned the average Jedi 10 times over in a couple of minutes.
Could you post a pic of the fight between Cade and Nihl?
You seem to be able to access SWtimeline, do it yourself, its in Legacy #6
It was only because he couldn't control his armor. The same would have happened to almost anybody.
Except someone who you know could overpower his spell...
Apparently so, as they demonstrated with Krayt.
Yeah because Ancient Sith from what 5000 years ago in the Star Wars universe have knowledge of beings that hadn't even been allegedly seen in the galaxy till 1000 years after he existed. Makes sense doesn't it.
I don't see how Mace could control the armor any better than Krayt did.
By being stronger in the force then him...
