Originally posted by FeceMan
That's emotional blackmail.
It's him being a raving hypocrite and me pulling him up on it. You can't be pro-protection of freedom, anti-use of that freedom.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Partial Birth Abortions can generally be done up to two weeks before the date of birth...in some states, they can even be done last minute.First the doctor takes a pair of forceps or pliars which he inserts through the vaginal canal to turn the foetus over, so that instead of coming out head-first, the foetus will come out feet first..they do this, because the head coming out is the most painful part for a woman. It's less painful when the child come outs feet first, although dangerous for the child (but since the intention is to kill the child, it doesn't really matter does it ?)
No, it doesn't matter and no, that isn't torture. It's just a graphic medical practice which you have taken a disliking to. Trepanning is gross, too.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Second, as they pull the body out slowly, they stop when the neck is fully exposed. The doctor takes a pair of scissors and stabs the back of the baby's head with it. He then opens the scissors to have a nice slit to insert the suction tube.Third..the suction tube sucks out the baby's brains so that the skull will collapse, making the removal of the child easy and painless (for the woman).
Even if the torture is only for a few seconds, it is still torture. There is nothing "subjective" about that. IT is what it is.
It's not. It's a gruesome medical procedure, nothing more, nothing less.
Torture is defined as the act of inflicting excruciating pain for means of sheer cruelty. The docs aren't standing there under a red light, maniacally laughing their heads off while blood squirts onto their masks. They're doing their jobs.
Whether or not you like this procedure, you are quite right, it is what is it, and that's just a procedure. I think the act is gruesome, but so are many medical procedures. Get over it.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You just said it's her foetus, she can do whatever she wants to it. Even when you know at this point the foetus can feel pain.
Yes, and she can. It feels pain incidentally, it feeling pain doesn't make it an inherently cruel act, just unfortunate timing. Doesn't matter to me, it's none of my business.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
So the suffering of another life doesn't matter to you....I'm glad you're not in charge.
Quite honestly; Other people's business doesn't matter to me. Feel pain or not, I don't give a shit, it's nothing to do with me. I also realise that it's not done with glorious intent. I swear you sit there thinking these doctors are secretly Ed Gein or something.
Get over yourself and realise it's nothing to do with you either. The solution isn't to go around saying that this procedure is torture in order to gain a favourable response, because it's not.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
An early abortion is far more humane since the foetus cannot feel any pain, nor is it even sentient yet. By the 6th and 7th month, the foetus already has its nerves, brain, and vital organs ready for use. It feels pain by this time. To inflict pain on any life, especially a human life is cruel. There is no denying that.
There quite clearly is room for denying it, because that's exactly what I'm doing.
Acts aren't inherently cruel, the reasons for doing them are what make them cruel or not cruel. If a woman wanted an abortion just so she could make a foetus feel pain, that would be considered cruel. Any other reason and the pain just happens to be incidental.
Inflicting pain isn't cruel by default, inflicting pain for the wrong reasons, is cruel. It's not Hostel, what do you think's happening here? That they get some sick enjoyment out of it? They do their jobs, simple as.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I seem to remember you making a huge deal and entire thread dedicated to animals being skinned alive in China. It's none of your business, but you seemed very interested....
I said I have the ability to detach myself from things that are either none of my business or do not matter to me. Skinning helpless animals for the benefit of a fur coat is something that matters to me and entirely different to anything being discussed here.
If a woman got pregnant just so she could skin the baby to make a handbag, I'd be saying the same thing.
Try again.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
It's absurd that you think you are in a position to determine when someone else's life matters and when it does not.
I am most definitely in the position to decide when anything matters to me, or when it doesn't. Stop knee-jerking.
I'm not deciding for you, my whole point is that just because you don't like something, doesn't mean it should be banned.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You have stated that the child is not truly a living being until it is born.....who are YOU to decide that ? So a few minutes before child birth, the child is worthless ? Only when it passes out of the canal, it means something ?
I said I don't consider it a life until it's born, I never said everyone factually agrees with me. Get a hold of yourself and stop making things up.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
That is absurdity.
So are your assumptions and misinterpretations, as follows:
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
He admitted ignorance to the procedure of partial birth abortion.
I didn't say anything of the sort. I said I don't care when or how a woman has an abortion, you said;
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Even if the foetus is tortured before dying ? 😬
I said;
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Depends how you define torture doesn't it?
To which you so arrogantly and hysterically replied:
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You obviously do not know how Partial Birth Abortions are done.
I.e: "He doesn't go crazy over partial birth abortions, he doesn't consider it torture, so therefore he is ignorant to knowing how they are performed.".
I know perfectly well how they're performed, not once did I claim ignorance to the procedure. Your inability to deal with the fact that I don't have a problem with it is what led to you convincing yourself that I just didn't know better.
Next time, don't be so presumptuous.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's him being a raving hypocrite and me pulling him up on it. You can't be pro-protection of freedom, anti-use of that freedom.
Pro-Choice is not a black or white stance. I am fine with Abortions that are done early. I am not fine with Abortions that are done last minute. Unnecessary torture is involved.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, it doesn't matter and no, that isn't torture. It's just a graphic medical practice which you have taken a disliking to. Trepanning is gross, too.
Torture
4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.
Partial Birth Abortion certainly qualifies.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Torture is defined as the act of inflicting excruciating pain for means of sheer cruelty. The docs aren't standing there under a red light, maniacally laughing their heads off while blood squirts onto their masks. They're doing their jobs.
Torture is also defined as:
Torture
4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.
Stop nit picking definitions to suit your purposes. Their jobs involve torture. I am not judging the docs or the woman, so stop putting words in my mouth. It is the act of partial birth abortion I am condemning.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes, and she can. It feels pain incidentally, it feeling pain doesn't make it an inherently cruel act, just unfortunate timing. Doesn't matter to me, it's none of my business.
I don't care what matters to you. You are not the master of reality, so quite frankly your biases mean nothing to me. That is not what I am discussing here.
It is cruel to inflict pain on a living being, for whatever reason. End of Story. 👇
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Quite honestly; Other people's business doesn't matter to me. Feel pain or not, I don't give a shit, it's nothing to do with me. I also realise that it's not done with glorious intent. I swear you sit there thinking these doctors are secretly Ed Gein or something.
Which is why I said I am glad you are not in charge, because your lack of empathy for the suffering of others (human or animal), or better yet, your discrimination of empathy will make you no better a leader than our sh*t head President.
I did not judge the doctors. Stop putting words in my mouth again.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Acts aren't inherently cruel, the reasons for doing them are what make them cruel or not cruel. If a woman wanted an abortion just so she could make a foetus feel pain, that would be considered cruel. Any other reason and the pain just happens to be incidental.
It is cruel to inflict pain on a living being....there's no way around it. Your attempts to utilize loopholes fail 👇
It is cruel to jam a pair of scissors down a baby's head and suck its f*cking brains out....
WAKE UP 🙄
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Inflicting pain isn't cruel by default,
Yes it is
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
inflicting pain for the wrong reasons, is cruel.
Who are you to decide what are the right or wrong reasons? 😬
I thought you earlier said right and wrong were subjective
Hypocrite 👇
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's not Hostel, what do you think's happening here?
A baby is getting his/her skull impaled with a scissor and then having his/her brains vacuumed out.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That they get some sick enjoyment out of it? They do their jobs, simple as.
Who knows...they might. If I were an executioner, and I chop off people's heads and pull the electric switch, am I just doing my job ?
If I were an assassin, and I kill people for profit, that's not cruel ? I'm just simply doing my job ? 🙄
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I said I have the ability to detach myself from things that are either none of my business or do not matter to me. Skinning helpless animals for the benefit of a fur coat is something that matters to me and entirely different to anything being discussed here.
Like I said before, your biases mean nothing to me.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I am most definitely in the position to decide when anything matters to me, or when it doesn't. Stop knee-jerking.
You are NOT in a position to determine the value of the life of another 👇
Stop playing God.... 👇
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I said I don't consider it a life until it's born, I never said everyone factually agrees with me. Get a hold of yourself and stop making things up.
Your baises mean nothing to me again
Before it's born..it's ALIVE RIGHT ? So it's a life.... What's one plus one....? TWO right ?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
-AC
I know who you are...you're constant habit of signature is annoying.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Pro-Choice is not a black or white stance. I am fine with Abortions that are done early. I am not fine with Abortions that are done last minute. Unnecessary torture is involved.
You haven't read the other thread, you don't know what I'm talking about, and no it's not torture. It's a gruesome act.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Torture4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.
Yes. I.e: "Oh man, I had a headache, it was torture.". Not in the sense of torturing someone, which is how you clearly meant it.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Partial Birth Abortion certainly qualifies.
In that definition, yes, but all that means is that it involves pain, which we knew. You brought torture into it, you said the foetus gets tortured. I took that to mean what we all think of when we think of torture, which isn't applicable.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Stop nit picking definitions to suit your purposes. Their jobs involve torture. I am not judging the docs or the woman, so stop putting words in my mouth. It is the act of partial birth abortion I am condemning.
As I said above, you are the one nitpicking to suit your purposes. The definition you quoted does not fit the context in which you used the word torture.
If we're assuming torture means pain, then pain is involved. If we're taking it to mean causing pain out of cruelty, torture in it's most known form, then no, it's not torture.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I don't care what matters to you. You are not the master of reality, so quite frankly your biases mean nothing to me. That is not what I am discussing here.
Well I don't care what matters to you, and what matters to you? Partial birth abortions. So around we go. The difference is, I'm not trying to speak for anyone but me.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
It is [b]cruel to inflict pain on a living being, for whatever reason. End of Story. 👇[/b]
My dad hit his thumb with a hammer once, the thumb was bleeding under the nail but the pressure stopped it from escaping. To let it out they had to burn a hole through his nail and partial thumb, it caused him extreme pain. Was that cruel? No. It was a painful medical procedure.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Which is why I said I am glad you are not in charge, because your lack of empathy for the suffering of others (human or animal), or better yet, your discrimination of empathy will make you no better a leader than our sh*t head President.
Humans are animals.
Precisely. I wouldn't make a good leader, and I never said I would. What's your point? The whole point of being President is to put your own needs and desires aside in favour of the greater public. I don't give a shit about them, so I admit I wouldn't make a good leader. What's your point? You're getting angry aren't you?
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I did not judge the doctors. Stop putting words in my mouth again.
What, like you did when you said I openly admitted ignorance of the procedure? Be quiet then.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
It is cruel to inflict pain on a living being....there's no way around it. Your attempts to utilize loopholes fail 👇
That's not true, though, as evidenced by the example above. You're suggesting that any procedure involving pain is a cruel one. This makes you a moron.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
It is cruel to jam a pair of scissors down a baby's head and suck its f*cking brains out....
If the intent is to harm the baby, then yes. If the intent isn't to harm the baby, but the harm happens as a result of doing something for the greater good, then it's not cruel, just unfortunate and a bit gruesome.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
WAKE UP 🙄
Calm the temper. Oh, and do you have to hit the enter key after every single quote you answer?
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Yes it is
So all doctors that perform painful procedures are cruel?
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Who are [b]you to decide what are the right or wrong reasons? 😬[/b]
In my personal opinion, wrong would be using abortion as birth control, right would be anything else.
Objectively; Women have the right to do either, and I'm not going to stand in the way or care if they do.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I thought you earlier said right and wrong were [b] subjective[/b]
They are, as I said above. Stop being a presumptuous idiot.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Hypocrite 👇
If we go by what you imagine I'm saying, yes. If we go by my actual words, no. If you can't reply without being presumptuous, don't reply at all.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
A baby is getting his/her skull impaled with a scissor and then having his/her brains vacuumed out.
Yeah, point? Oh, "Torture blah blah...", yes. *Yawn*.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Who knows...they might. If I were an executioner, and I chop off people's heads and pull the electric switch, am I just doing my job ?
Yeah, exactly. You're doing it because it's your job, not because you want to inflict pain and enjoy it.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If I were an assassin, and I kill people for profit, that's not cruel ? I'm just simply doing my job ? 🙄
Technically speaking, yes you are. Serial killers who kill for the sole reason of inflicting pain and anguish, those are cruel.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Like I said before, your biases mean nothing to me.
Yes, MY "biases".
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You are [b]NOT in a position to determine the value of the life of another 👇Stop playing God.... 👇[/b]
In my eyes, I am. I'm not deciding for you or anyone but me. Your life is of no value at all to me, I do not value your existence at all, that's my opinion, that's my belief. I do not owe it to you to value your existence or anybody else's, and likewise for you to me.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Your baises mean nothing to me again
Fix the record player.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Before it's born..it's [b]ALIVE RIGHT ? So it's a life.... What's one plus one....? TWO right ?[/b]
Trees are alive, the don't have A LIFE do they?
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I know who you are...you're constant habit of signature is annoying.
Shame that, because your increased sense of annoyance and frustration is getting funny.
-AC
Originally posted by FeceManWomen who are impregnated as a result of rape/incest should be obligated to carry the product of rape until term because they have fertile reproductive organs and were subject to violent sexual assault completely against their will?
I don't think women who were raped should have abortions, but I also think that the government should do everything that's possible to help them out in the situation.
Then after enduring rape, pregnancy and childbirth "the government should help them out."
Riddle me this. If the fetus is diagnosed with anencephaly, (google it, it's a developmental disorder) do you think the pregnant woman should still carry it to term?
Originally posted by FeceManCorrect and correct. Partial birth abortions are usually only performed if carrying to term carries too much medical risk as far as I'm aware. The vast majority of abortions are early first trimester.
If I am not incorrect, partial birth abortion is only done in extreme cases. It's still damn nasty, though.
Of course it's not.
Well, gruesome pictures or not, that shouldn't be detrimental to the important fact; It's her right.
What happened to freedom, RJ? Is that a quality you only stand up for in theory? You're so into going to war for the freedoms you CLAIM you hold dear, yet when a woman wants to exercise the rights that people have fought to protect, or said to have been fighting to protect, you tell her she can't.
Take a long look at your beliefs.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Of course it's not.Well, gruesome pictures or not, that shouldn't be detrimental to the important fact; It's her right.
What happened to freedom, RJ? Is that a quality you only stand up for in theory? You're so into going to war for the freedoms you CLAIM you hold dear, yet when a woman wants to exercise the rights that people have fought to protect, or said to have been fighting to protect, you tell her she can't.
Take a long look at your beliefs.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
People have freedom, they will either use it responsibly or not.Those who do shouldn't suffer restrictions because there are some that do.
-AC
That would depend on the frequency of the abusers imo.
I don't really see anything of value coming out of this legislation though.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Someone go find a picture of a woman who is living a better life as a result of having an abortion, see if people have the same reaction.Oh, that probably won't work, because people are swayed by images of "babies".
-AC
You'r so f*cking ignorant that it's sad.
You are here actually arguing FOR the partial birth abortions, quibbling over definitions saying "its a gruesmome procedure, not torture" and relating bullshit stories of your dad hitting his thumb with a hammer.
I'm glad to know that you're still just a 21 year old kid that lives at home and that life might teach you something more later on.
Instead of posting pics of people that are "happy" because of an abortion, we can go back to posting about people like Beethoven who "should" have been aborted by today's standards but were allowed to live.
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriTake a look at yours.
Of course it's not.Well, gruesome pictures or not, that shouldn't be detrimental to the important fact; It's her right.
What happened to freedom, RJ? Is that a quality you only stand up for in theory? You're so into going to war for the freedoms you CLAIM you hold dear, yet when a woman wants to exercise the rights that people have fought to protect, or said to have been fighting to protect, you tell her she can't.
Take a long look at your beliefs.
-AC
The freedom to life for the baby is far more important than the freedom of the woman to take a cock whenever she feels like it and not deal with the KNOWN consequences of sex.
She needs to deal with it, the father needs to deal with it, and unless it will kill the mother to give birth... the baby needs to live.
People can give the kid up for adoption.
If Vietnam has more applications for foster kids than actual kids in foster homes eligible for adoptions (thanks to Ms. Jolie-Pitt for bringing this fact to light), then we can certainly place our kids in adoptive homes rather than ending their lives.
Sirs,
Jenny Shipley, in heralding the latest Government proposals to reduce abortion in my home New Zealand, articulated classic philosophical materialism. The reasoning goes like this: We have a problem, ie abortion. As material is all there is, the problem must be a material problem. To solve a material problem you need a material solution. What material solution could solve abortion? Great Scott, of course! Why didn’t we think of it before? The pill!
The problem is, abortion is not a material problem at all! It’s a moral problem. However because materialists deny morality (at least they do when it suits them), they cannot not address the issue as a moral problem and so completely miss the point. Unfortunately the Government and Mrs Shipley have functioned in this case as materialists and so have missed the point and will solve nothing.
V for value
Originally posted by sithsaber408
You'r so f*cking ignorant that it's sad.You are here actually arguing FOR the partial birth abortions, quibbling over definitions saying "its a gruesmome procedure, not torture" and relating bullshit stories of your dad hitting his thumb with a hammer.
I'm not ignorant. You and the likes of Urizen are the ones knee-jerking too fast to stop and understand my position.
I'm not arguing for or against the procedure, I'm just saying I don't care that it exists. Urizen is suggesting that this must mean I didn't know how it was performed, rather than realising this wasn't the case.
The man is sitting there saying that any procedure where pain is inflicted is cruel, I show him an example and it's somehow a bs story? Get your mind right before you come in here with your frustration. I'm not the one quibbling over definitions, I know perfectly well that it's not torture in the common sense, he's implying it is. It's not, fact. The doctors are not doing it for joy or pleasure.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
I'm glad to know that you're still just a 21 year old kid that lives at home and that life might teach you something more later on.
About what? Partial birth abortions? They exist, they're gruesome, you don't like them, and I will continue to not give any kind of shit what a woman does with her body or her foetus. I'm not suggesting she goes out and gets one, am I? I'm saying I don't care if she does.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Instead of posting pics of people that are "happy" because of an abortion, we can go back to posting about people like Beethoven who "should" have been aborted by today's standards but were allowed to live. Take a look at yours.
And to think, you accused me of bullshit stories. I'm not debating what today's societal standards are, you mugron. I'm suggesting that if a woman wants to do endure a procedure involving something she created, housed and incubated, she has the right to. I'm not saying I like partial birth abortions, but I am not out to ban them either. Slow yourself down, read things through.
You're too blinded by the shock of someone not being rabidly opposed to the procedure that you stupidly assume I must be ignorant or uneducated. I'm not, I know what I need to know, I just realise that it's not of my business.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
The freedom to life for the baby is far more important than the freedom of the woman to take a cock whenever she feels like it and not deal with the KNOWN consequences of sex.
She finds out she's pregnant, right? Therefore she's already dealt with the consequences of sex, she's just dealing with those consequences in a way she desires before, in your eyes, it's "too late".
Women will be irresponsible with abortions, that's sucky, but it's a people problem, not an abortion problem. Abortion is perfectly fine, there's nothing wrong with it. You're arguing against it because people misuse it. Argue against the people, if that's your concern, not the procedure.
The "baby" wouldn't even exist without the woman, so how you're giving IT priority over her is a bit backward.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
She needs to deal with it, the father needs to deal with it, and unless it will kill the mother to give birth... the baby needs to live.
She "needs" to do whatever she wants to do. You NEED to deal with your own life, not other people's.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
People can give the kid up for adoption.
They can, yes. That's one option. What's your point? They CAN also have abortions, which is the other option. Sometimes adoption is preferred, sometimes abortion is. If you want to give birth to a child and give it up for adoption, fine by me. If you don't, fine by me.
You're just pissed because you don't like the fact that somebody is exercising the freedom of speech to say "No, I don't have to pick one of two sides when I agree with neither.".
Originally posted by sithsaber408
If Vietnam has more applications for foster kids than actual kids in foster homes eligible for adoptions (thanks to Ms. Jolie-Pitt for bringing this fact to light), then we can certainly place our kids in adoptive homes rather than ending their lives.
Yeah, keyword: "Can.".
You "can" choose to stop spewing bullshit, get on with your own life and stop trying to pass laws based on your own personal beliefs, laws that will effect everyone else, but you won't, you choose not to.
-AC