KotOR2 Bastilla Shan versus RotS Obi-Wan Kenobi

Originally posted by Advent
Where does it say that Dooku couldn't get past his defense? As far as I recall, the RotS novelization states that "[Dooku] almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts" (Ch. 3). Which clearly indicates he couldn't break Kenobi's maneuvers, because he switched his form to Soresu, and hadn't been paying attention.

Nothing that I've seen states that Dooku wouldn't be able to overcome Kenobi when he's using Soresu, as the only example was in regards to a situation where Obi-Wan subtly reverted to his main form while Dooku had already been laying down attacks based on the premise he was using Ataru, then immediately took him out with the Force once he realized this.

I have to agree with you, Advent. But I also need to point out that - even if Dooku were capable of breaching Obi-Wan's defenses (which is possible, given his proficiency with Makashi) - logical evidence concludes that this would be extremely difficult for Dooku to accomplish with a lightsaber, and the feat itself isn't guarenteed.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
There isn't any. I posted it to show what Obi left Anakin as... Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I was joking...just saying that Anakin got pwned badly in that duel.

Yeah, i think you're right i heard that too somewhere... and it's hell true. Bastila's no special Jedi without her Battle Meditation and that's it

Originally posted by Gideon
I have to agree with you, Advent. But I also need to point out that - even if Dooku were capable of breaching Obi-Wan's defenses (which is possible, given his proficiency with Makashi) - logical evidence concludes that this would be extremely difficult for Dooku to accomplish with a lightsaber, and the feat itself isn't guarenteed.

Anyone (from PT) would extremely difficult defeat Kenobi in a saber match, he is the best master of Soreusu, the most defensive form.

Hard to say. As it was said, we don't know much about bastilla, besides the fact that she was stated as a powerful force user by the jedi masters from that time. Depends, really. Maybe obi-wan, but to say this or the other way is just a personal opinion, i don't have proofs to support it.

No, it really doesn't. She hasn't got a prayer in saber combat, and she's not Yoda or Sidious with the Force, so I don't see her beating him there, either.

I cant believe its just 4-3 for Kenobi.

Bastilla was labelled a force and lightsaber prodigy by the Masters on the Dantooine Council during KotOR. I don't recall Vader (cyborg or pre cyborg) being stated or supported as being one. She was also noted as having exceptional innate talent with the force, so she ticks all of the boxes really: force strength, force prodigy and lightsaber prodigy. As a padawan, she was already considered a legend among the Jedi, a rising star among their ranks, and beyond most of the then current masters despite her lack of age/rank/experience. She was extremely prodigious. Her ability to form bonds (with Revan) also strongly speaks for her massive force strength, and this was even noted by the masters.

She was labelled a master swordsman, and the doublebladed lightsaber was her weapon of choice, a weapon that was pretty rare by PT times, and thus would be much more deadly to someone like Vader.

The experience she received on her journeys with Revan during KotOR 1 would had made her extremely powerful (Revan's party comes across literally hundreds of Dark Jedi during KotOR, so it can be assumed that Bastilla faced and defeated quite the number. That's just Dark Jedi, she would have also received loads of experience on all of the quests that go on through KotOR). She was already an extremely gifted and powerful Knight, so by halfway through KotOR (where she becomes a Knight) and by the end of KotOR 2 (where she's a Master), her improvement rate would have been huge (given the huge experience she received, her youth and her prodigy). The fact that she survived Sion and Nihilus' Shadow Wars also speaks volumes, and the speed in which she climbed the ranks is tremendous.

Not only did she receive training in the lightside of the force by the Jedi, but she was also given extensive training in the darkside by Malak. This can be seen when she knows of such techniques as force lightning and force drain. She was also powered up by The Star Forge to some degree (given that Malak was relying on her impressive Battle Meditation to defeat the Republic, he would have wanted to power her up as much as possible as long as there was enough power left for him), and as we know the power up would remain permanent, so her already extremely impressive strength in the force would have been further augmented by an imaginable tremendous increase.

Her lightsaber skills were clearly incredible, given that when she was a mere padawan, she displayed the ability to lightsaber tool a powerful Dark Jedi that had been accompanying Revan in mere seconds (it's in a cutscene at the start of KotOR). The Dark jedi was accompanying Darth Revan, so he was clearly one of the more powerful Dark Jedi, yet Bastilla, while still a padawan, completely owned him. That kind of tremendous an=ability while still a padawan makes you wonder how powerful she becomes by the end of KotOR two, with all her extra training and experience, and after being SF powered.

The fact that she was even given the responsibility to be part of the strike team that was responsible for capturing Revan speaks volumes. Now I know people will say she was only picked for her Battle Meditation, but that was to only ensure that the strike team would be able to board Revan's ship. She wouldn't have also subsequently boarded Revan's ship with the other jedi if they didn't believe she had the skills to be an asset. So the fact that the Jedi Order gave her so much responsibility (also seen when that let Bastilla in on Revan's true identity) despite her young age and lack of experience speaks volumes for how gifted a padawan she was.

Now when Malak blasted on Revan's ship just before the Jedi could face him, it knocked Revan unconscious and would have killed him if not for Bastilla. Not only did she survive and remain conscious after the ship had been hit (which had enough power to kill Revan), but she was also able to use the force to heal Revan and keep him alive.

Now all of the above is mostly not even mentioning her force ability, which is what she excels at. First off, her willpower was so incredible that she was able to force dominate a fricking Hutt. That alone puts her will beyond any movie character, given they all viewed such a feat as impossible, and thought of Hutts as being immune to mind tricks.

Another thing supporting her tremendous will (as well as force strength) is how incredible her battle meditation was. It was above that of people such as Nomi Sunrider (who could literally visualise something, and it would just happen: force her will onto reality), and so strong that she had the ability to turn the tide of wars instantaneously for a side that was seconds away from defeat and losing badly. her ability with the technique was so great that both the Jedi and the Sith (when she was one) literally solely relied on it for the war effort.

She's also displayed the force strength to instantly stun two very powerful jedi (Jolee Bindo and Juhani) pretty effortlessly. I don't recall Vader ever being able to force own powerful force users like that. Now what people don't seem to get is overpowering any force user, no matter how you do it, always requires the same power, and that is the power to break through their force defence. In other words, if she chose to, she could have just as easily been able to instantly kill both of them on the spot. Now seeing as how people go on about Exar Kun force owning Odan-Urr like he did, and Traya owning those Jedi Masters like she did, you have to view what Bastilla did as even more incredible, given she did it instantly.

Her stats are also pretty damn uber (in comparison to the others), and they only grow way more powerful after she turns to the darkside. In sticking to the nature of her class when levelling up, she can become pretty uber. In particular, I’d like to note that Vader’s main strength is the fear he inspires in his opponents, yet Bastilla has a force immunity to fear.

Face it, Bastilla pwns.

What did she ever do to put her in the big leagues in personal combat, she never defeated somebody in a saber match that is really good(like Kenobi did against GG and Maul) or use her Force powers in personal combat and she is very reckless. She uses double-bladed saber but so did Maul and i don't think she is good as Maul. Her battle meditation is really impressive, but it wont do her any good in 1 on 1 fight.
Bastilla is probably very good, but she is not in a World Class combatant and in the game she isn't a Jedi guardian, clearly she wasn't focusing on combat.

What did she ever do to put her in the big leagues in personal combat, she never defeated somebody in a saber match that is really good(like Kenobi did against GG and Maul)

She owned a dark jedi that was part of Darth Revan's personal bodyguard unit (he had an entire order to pick from, the dark jedi would have been very powerful), and that was when she was a mere padawan. It can also be assumed that she faced and killed many dark jedi, given the warlike era and jedi and sith orders, and how many you encounter during the game. It's also quite possible she had a few encounters with some sith assassins during the Shadow War, but whatever, this is just speculation.

or use her Force powers in personal combat and she is very reckless.

Huh? She stunned both Jolee Bindo and Juhani instantly, and with no apparent effort. That's pretty damn uber. And yeah, sure, she's reckless, but I highly doubt she'd lose to Kenobi based solely on that.

She uses double-bladed saber but so did Maul and i don't think she is good as Maul.

Your entitled to your opinion, but I disagree. Bastilla was a saber prodigy, has about as much training as Maul does (both were trained from birth, Maul was 24, I'm guessing Bastilla was a little younger, but not much, so roughly the same, though maybe a little less), and has faced far more combat. Maul, by TPM, had only really just fully master his form (it says so in his novel), was never shown to be anywhere near as strong as Bastilla in the force (which make a huge difference in saber combat), and has far less experience.

Her battle meditation is really impressive, but it wont do her any good in 1 on 1 fight.

Well it's great testament to her will and strength in the force, and depending on how she uses it, it could be useful in such a scenario.

Bastilla is probably very good, but she is not in a World Class combatant and in the game she isn't a Jedi guardian, clearly she wasn't focusing on combat.

I disagree. IMPO, she's probably the most powerful female force user ever (yes, that's right, I'd put her above Traya). And jedi class means little, Yoda was a consular, and he still kicked ass in saber combat. Kavar was a weapons master, and he was still pretty impressive in the force (in KotOR2, when surrounded by about 12 guards, he instantly puts them into a force stasis, with no gesture or apparent effort).

Originally posted by allfg
Bastilla was labelled a force and lightsaber prodigy by the Masters on the Dantooine Council during KotOR. I don't recall Vader (cyborg or pre cyborg) being stated or supported as being one. She was also noted as having exceptional innate talent with the force, so she ticks all of the boxes really: force strength, force prodigy and lightsaber prodigy. As a padawan, she was already considered a legend among the Jedi, a rising star among their ranks, and beyond most of the then current masters despite her lack of age/rank/experience. She was extremely prodigious. Her ability to form bonds (with Revan) also strongly speaks for her massive force strength, and this was even noted by the masters.

She was labelled a master swordsman, and the doublebladed lightsaber was her weapon of choice, a weapon that was pretty rare by PT times, and thus would be much more deadly to someone like Vader.

The experience she received on her journeys with Revan during KotOR 1 would had made her extremely powerful (Revan's party comes across literally hundreds of Dark Jedi during KotOR, so it can be assumed that Bastilla faced and defeated quite the number. That's just Dark Jedi, she would have also received loads of experience on all of the quests that go on through KotOR). She was already an extremely gifted and powerful Knight, so by halfway through KotOR (where she becomes a Knight) and by the end of KotOR 2 (where she's a Master), her improvement rate would have been huge (given the huge experience she received, her youth and her prodigy). The fact that she survived Sion and Nihilus' Shadow Wars also speaks volumes, and the speed in which she climbed the ranks is tremendous.

Not only did she receive training in the lightside of the force by the Jedi, but she was also given extensive training in the darkside by Malak. This can be seen when she knows of such techniques as force lightning and force drain. She was also powered up by The Star Forge to some degree (given that Malak was relying on her impressive Battle Meditation to defeat the Republic, he would have wanted to power her up as much as possible as long as there was enough power left for him), and as we know the power up would remain permanent, so her already extremely impressive strength in the force would have been further augmented by an imaginable tremendous increase.

Her lightsaber skills were clearly incredible, given that when she was a mere padawan, she displayed the ability to lightsaber tool a powerful Dark Jedi that had been accompanying Revan in mere seconds (it's in a cutscene at the start of KotOR). The Dark jedi was accompanying Darth Revan, so he was clearly one of the more powerful Dark Jedi, yet Bastilla, while still a padawan, completely owned him. That kind of tremendous an=ability while still a padawan makes you wonder how powerful she becomes by the end of KotOR two, with all her extra training and experience, and after being SF powered.

The fact that she was even given the responsibility to be part of the strike team that was responsible for capturing Revan speaks volumes. Now I know people will say she was only picked for her Battle Meditation, but that was to only ensure that the strike team would be able to board Revan's ship. She wouldn't have also subsequently boarded Revan's ship with the other jedi if they didn't believe she had the skills to be an asset. So the fact that the Jedi Order gave her so much responsibility (also seen when that let Bastilla in on Revan's true identity) despite her young age and lack of experience speaks volumes for how gifted a padawan she was.

Now when Malak blasted on Revan's ship just before the Jedi could face him, it knocked Revan unconscious and would have killed him if not for Bastilla. Not only did she survive and remain conscious after the ship had been hit (which had enough power to kill Revan), but she was also able to use the force to heal Revan and keep him alive.

Now all of the above is mostly not even mentioning her force ability, which is what she excels at. First off, her willpower was so incredible that she was able to force dominate a fricking Hutt. That alone puts her will beyond any movie character, given they all viewed such a feat as impossible, and thought of Hutts as being immune to mind tricks.

Another thing supporting her tremendous will (as well as force strength) is how incredible her battle meditation was. It was above that of people such as Nomi Sunrider (who could literally visualise something, and it would just happen: force her will onto reality), and so strong that she had the ability to turn the tide of wars instantaneously for a side that was seconds away from defeat and losing badly. her ability with the technique was so great that both the Jedi and the Sith (when she was one) literally solely relied on it for the war effort.

She's also displayed the force strength to instantly stun two very powerful jedi (Jolee Bindo and Juhani) pretty effortlessly. I don't recall Vader ever being able to force own powerful force users like that. Now what people don't seem to get is overpowering any force user, no matter how you do it, always requires the same power, and that is the power to break through their force defence. In other words, if she chose to, she could have just as easily been able to instantly kill both of them on the spot. Now seeing as how people go on about Exar Kun force owning Odan-Urr like he did, and Traya owning those Jedi Masters like she did, you have to view what Bastilla did as even more incredible, given she did it instantly.

Her stats are also pretty damn uber (in comparison to the others), and they only grow way more powerful after she turns to the darkside. In sticking to the nature of her class when levelling up, she can become pretty uber. In particular, I’d like to note that Vader’s main strength is the fear he inspires in his opponents, yet Bastilla has a force immunity to fear.

Face it, Bastilla pwns.

What the hell? Didn't you post this in another thread and got pwned badly?

No, Rex was acting like a b1tch and closed the thread before I could reply. Rip the post apart by all means though Dalek, if you can.

Originally posted by allfg
No, Rex was acting like a b1tch and closed the thread before I could reply. Rip the post apart by all means though Dalek, if you can.

Rex, a b1tch? That just goes to show how little you know of him. Rexinator is the ultimate incarnation of the online phrase "teh uber". He's in love with me, just like Advent is. 😎

Originally posted by allfg
No, Rex was acting like a b1tch and closed the thread before I could reply. Rip the post apart by all means though Dalek, if you can.

You had your chance, in fact alot of it. Out of three debater's argument, you were a coward and decided to vent your anger to someone else, REX. But you didn't know REX is one of the best here...I think.

Originally posted by allfg
She owned a dark jedi that was part of Darth Revan's personal bodyguard unit (he had an entire order to pick from, the dark jedi would have been very powerful), and that was when she was a mere padawan. It can also be assumed that she faced and killed many dark jedi, given the warlike era and jedi and sith orders, and how many you encounter during the game. It's also quite possible she had a few encounters with some sith assassins during the Shadow War, but whatever, this is just speculation.

Huh? She stunned both Jolee Bindo and Juhani instantly, and with no apparent effort. That's pretty damn uber. And yeah, sure, she's reckless, but I highly doubt she'd lose to Kenobi based solely on that.

Your entitled to your opinion, but I disagree. Bastilla was a saber prodigy, has about as much training as Maul does (both were trained from birth, Maul was 24, I'm guessing Bastilla was a little younger, but not much, so roughly the same, though maybe a little less), and has faced far more combat. Maul, by TPM, had only really just fully master his form (it says so in his novel), was never shown to be anywhere near as strong as Bastilla in the force (which make a huge difference in saber combat), and has far less experience.

Well it's great testament to her will and strength in the force, and depending on how she uses it, it could be useful in such a scenario.

I disagree. IMPO, she's probably the most powerful female force user ever (yes, that's right, I'd put her above Traya). And jedi class means little, Yoda was a consular, and he still kicked ass in saber combat. Kavar was a weapons master, and he was still pretty impressive in the force (in KotOR2, when surrounded by about 12 guards, he instantly puts them into a force stasis, with no gesture or apparent effort).

We don't know how powerful that Dark Jedi, rely was and i am sure he was nowhere near Kenobis skill. And Kenobi fought constantly in the war
[check message length]to and he progressed really fast, not fast as Anakin, but still fast. And all those Dark Jedi she faced, there was most of the time someone from the party with her, she never faced them alone.

Is stun a real power, because i never seen it the movies, or EU, we only see it in the KOTOR games, think about it, if stun was a real power, wouldn't the Jedi just use stun on their opponents, it would be there preferred power, they would harmlessly capture an enemy without risk to their safety. And Kenobi forms is perfect for patience, i think Bastilla would just get annoyed and make a mistake, after some time.

Who said Bastilla was a saber prodigy, if you can prove it, i will concede and admit it, because i don't remember that being said in the game. And even if she is a saber prodigy, that doesn't mean she mastered it completely, the likes of Dooku, Mace... when they wore in their 20s they wore probably labeled saber prodigies, but aren't even close from their ROTS characters. She neds time to completely perfect her form, if she is a saber prodigy.

Malak broke her will and Revan also convinced her to come back to the light on the Star Forge.

There is nothing to suggest that she is the most powerful female user ever and certainly she is not more powerful then Traya. I meant that she doesn't focuses on combat, but rather in Force techniques, especially battle meditation. And like i said, i don't think stasis is a real power, just a game one.