Plastic Man and Karate Kid should be moved down
Eel's powerful, but his character makes it so that the majority of the mid tiers would kick his ass, let alone the Herald peers.
Karate Kid being a herald is just silly though.
Seriously it's like
Magneto, Professor X, Air Walker, Sersi, Mr. M, Juggernaut..............Karate Kid?
Originally posted by Joey Stacks
Plastic Man and Karate Kid should be moved downEel's powerful, but his character makes it so that the majority of the mid tiers would kick his ass, let alone the Herald peers.
Karate Kid being a herald is just silly though.
Seriously it's like
Magneto, Professor X, Air Walker, Sersi, Mr. M, Juggernaut..............Karate Kid?
Mid tier what? PM isn't in the mid tier. He's in low herald, which is precisely where he belongs. The dude doesn't really have bad showings (ripped in two by Doomsday being an exception...but everyone had to job to him except Kal). And his good showings are very, very good for the tier...he belongs on the elite of the JLA, and also belongs in the low heralds.
Just looking at the list, 80% of the top metas he'd just enter their body and attack their very brain. And that's far from his only tactic, not to mention some insane durability (stalemate Fernus anyone?).
You might have a point with KK. But with a flight ring things change.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
He wasn't winning, of course. But it was still a great showing against a being that (water weakness aside) is at least High Herald. So don't get your panties bunched...we know your boy is > PM.😉
My main gripe is his Telepathy resistance.
That came out of nowhere.Plus he's been oneshotted by Martian vision before,Jonns Green martian brother beat him down and a White martians got the better of him in a shapeshifting contewst before.
He just seemed to gain a rediculous power boost that arc,more then Jonn did as Fernus.
I never remember him showing a vulnerability to tp though. So I don't think it was a reversal of powers in that case, just an addition to his canon.
And the White Martians punked everyone at some point in their story arc...then got tossed away like trash for the Fernus arc. So that's not entirely wrong, though the shapeshifting thing seems wrong.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
I never remember him showing a vulnerability to tp though. So I don't think it was a reversal of powers in that case, just an addition to his canon.And the White Martians punked everyone at some point in their story arc...then got tossed away like trash for the Fernus arc. So that's not entirely wrong, though the shapeshifting thing seems wrong.
Actually, before the Trial by Fire arc, I've honestly never seen him immune to telepathy before. I don't think it was ever mentioned before that.
Originally posted by batdude123
Actually, before the Trial by Fire arc, I've honestly never seen him immune to telepathy before. I don't think it was ever mentioned before that.
it wasn't.
A White Martian read his mind,he was able to use Jonns TP to communicate via Tower of Babel and Jonn once mindwiped a plan from his mind.
Plus i'll admit the White martian things an exaggeration,it happened when that Martian thought itr was Bruce wayne.It turned into a snake,Plas turned into a snake and The White martian then turned normal,held plas by the neck and threatened to melt him.
My bad on that one,had to go reread it.
Originally posted by Joey Stacks
Plastic Man and Karate Kid should be moved downEel's powerful, but his character makes it so that the majority of the mid tiers would kick his ass, let alone the Herald peers.
Karate Kid being a herald is just silly though.
Seriously it's like
Magneto, Professor X, Air Walker, Sersi, Mr. M, Juggernaut..............Karate Kid?
I agree with this.
Originally posted by Martian_mind
it wasn't.A White Martian read his mind,he was able to use Jonns TP to communicate via Tower of Babel and Jonn once mindwiped a plan from his mind.
Plus i'll admit the White martian things an exaggeration,it happened when that Martian thought itr was Bruce wayne.It turned into a snake,Plas turned into a snake and The White martian then turned normal,held plas by the neck and threatened to melt him.
My bad on that one,had to go reread it.
It was like Joe Kelly just made that shit up on the spot.
Originally posted by SnazzySmurph
I was half tempted to create an account called "KMCtard" after I read that as an apparent insult, and then debate the pros and cons of our list.Maybe I still will.
Yeah, might be fun. Calling us retards without supporting it with reason smacks of immaturity, so it could be quite funny.
Anyway, here's the post I made on their board:
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Hey guys. I'm a mod over on KMC (actually, the one responsible for popularizing the tiers thread). I mainly just do upkeep on it and don't decide too much about the power levels, but someone posted a link to this discussion and I found it amusing.I thought it might make for some interesting discussion if I present a counter-argument to some of the complaints with the list. Keep in mind, even I have plenty of problems with the list and realize it isn't perfect, but I thought the opportunity for discussion might be fun.
- A lot of the complaints seem to revolve around individual matchups. Sue would beat Reed 1-on-1, for example, but they're in the same level. With only 10 levels on the list, discrepancies on each level will always happen. But it aims to gauge overall power levels, versatility, etc. Neither Sue nor Reed could match anyone a level higher (barring a possible 1-2 exceptions) and they'd beat anyone a tier lower (again, with limited exceptions). Many similar instances occur, and I think it's only fair to cite individual matchups if a character could obviously beat a majority of the characters in a higher tier, or would lose to many in a lower tier. In this example, Sue is merely in the top half of the tier, while Reed is lower. But moving either one would be even more disingenuous to their power level because they'd be further away from those who are close to them in power, but not necessarily all equal.
- The other big problem is that people are quick to see what they dislike, but overlook the good. Everyone will have issues with the list...it's the nature of comics, and there's 100's of characters on the list to debate. But I think, on the whole, it's a decent gauge of overall power. A complete newb to comics, for example, could do a lot worse.
- Sub-Skyfather is basically anything above Surfer but below Odin(ish), which is a large range, so that group will have the most variance in power. As before, it's a power range, not saying "these people are all equal".
- Don't get caught up on terms. Many people have a different definition of "street level", for example. But if you don't think, say, Lady Deathstrike should be above "Street", check the lower tier and see if she belongs there. Chances are, a character is among peers in the power department, even if you disagree with the power label.
- Individual characters:
- I can't speak to every complaint, and many are actually quite valid, but I'll try to touch some of them.
Darkseid: Opinion is mixed but general KMC consensus has him at Skyfather level
Solomon Grundy: Possibly too high, but he has countless reincarnations, and many of them have solo'd formidable JSA rosters with legit Herald-level combatants. "Peak" is listed in brackets to indicate that normal Grundy is far lower.
Deathstroke: Does indeed have slighty > peak human physical stats, and his standard arsenal (which is assumed on our boards) is better than many (probably including Bats...since a lot of his stuff is with prep and isn't "standard"😉.
Despero: Touche. I think KMC fell in love with the V&V version of him though.
Adam Warlock: Controversial on our boards too, but his versatility, elusiveness, and intelligence are off the charts. He boasts some embarassing losses (Doom for example) but also wins over Surfer, a stalemate with Thor (sans Power Gem, which made Thor better), no less than 3 wins over Quasar, and his notorious intellectual victories over Thanos and his darker selves.
Thor/BRB: Power is equal, and in a brawl it's a push, but Thor has produced dozens of feats with Mjolnir that Bill has never attempted with Stormbreaker....and the weapon takes centuries to properly wield.
Hawk-people: Yeah, they're better than Spidey. Hawkman in particular. I'm a mild fanboy of Petey, so I'm not trying to fudge facts.
Animal Man: Some insane power combos from his animal powers. Dude stalemated (survived against) Superman and at one point (possibly still currently) could assimilate skills from otherworldly animals as well.
Plastic Man: He's like Reed on steroids, has stalemated MM as Fernus (which includes invulnerability to energy, fire, strength, telepathy, etc.) and has sick durability. He's where he belongs.- There's a decent number I can't comment on personally due to lack of knowledge, and some I actually agree with (like KK moving down 1 tier or Doomsday moving up 1). So take it all with a grain of salt. This is a partial justification, but still just one opinion