god-man quiz!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell

This is the wikipedia page for Joseph Campbell.You can find plenty of other sites on him,but I would read some of this before you call him an idiot.His work on mythology had inspired a lot of people.

On Astrology.(i'm refering,in part to the New Testiment)

It is belived the 12 disciples of Jesus was symbolic of the twelve tribes of Israel.But many scholars belive the twelve tribes are symbolic of the twelve signs of the Zodiac.

In the foot note of the Jesus Mysteries pg 265 119 we are told

The Jewish Menorah was taken over from Babylonian depictions of the "seven lights"-the sun,moon,and five visible planets.Babylonian astrology swept Greece and Italy in the four centuries BCE,to the benefit of the Jews.By the Roman period they were well known as peddlers of talismans and horoscopes and were often indistinguishable from Chaldaeans.In 139 BCE we hear of Chaldaeans ajnd jews alike being driven out of Rome.Intriguningly,these Jews are recorded as worshipers of Sabazius,another name for Dionysus.In Mystery Religons in the Ancient World,several Jewish depictions of the zodiac are depicted.

Now, I was being slightly overzealous, but the connection of John the Baptist to a water god is completely stupid considering that he matches ancient prophecy and baptism is an ancient Jewish tradition. It is quite predictable and in line with prophecy and tradition. There is nothing mystical or godlike about John the Baptist and nothing of the sort is attached to him other than that he was a prophet.

More likely, they are simply the twelve sons of Jacob and the twelve disciples represent the twelve tribes. The Zodiac doesn't apply here outside of the number.

Now it is important to seperate Biblical astronomy from astrology because they are very different. Now the twelve constellations were well known by the Jews since the beginning of their tradition and the Jewish historian Josephus claims that Jewish astronomy was established by Adam, Seth, and Enoch.

The menorah predates the 4th century BC by quite a bit. Its design is that of a moriah plant. The moriah grows in Israel.
http://www.bialik.vic.edu.au/imagebank/images/Israel/7%20branched%20moriah.jpg
There's a picture. Compare that to the Menorah and you will see a striking resemblance.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Now, I was being slightly overzealous

Oh stop it! YOU? That's not possible.

I swear it happened... I'm not sure what came over me, it's so out of character...

Sol Invictus Mithras can beat up any god any day firefirefireph

One of my favorite cults.

Originally posted by Alliance
Sol Invictus Mithras can beat up any god any day firefirefireph

One of my favorite cults.

ManBearPig would kick his ass any day of the week.

Originally posted by Devil King
ManBearPig would kick his ass any day of the week.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Are you serial?

totally serial

Then you're also wrong.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Now, I was being slightly overzealous, but the connection of John the Baptist to a water god is completely stupid considering that he matches ancient prophecy and baptism is an ancient Jewish tradition. It is quite predictable and in line with prophecy and tradition. There is nothing mystical or godlike about John the Baptist and nothing of the sort is attached to him other than that he was a prophet.

More likely, they are simply the twelve sons of Jacob and the twelve disciples represent the twelve tribes. The Zodiac doesn't apply here outside of the number.

Now it is important to seperate Biblical astronomy from astrology because they are very different. Now the twelve constellations were well known by the Jews since the beginning of their tradition and the Jewish historian Josephus claims that Jewish astronomy was established by Adam, Seth, and Enoch.

The menorah predates the 4th century BC by quite a bit. Its design is that of a moriah plant. The moriah grows in Israel.
http://www.bialik.vic.edu.au/imagebank/images/Israel/7%20branched%20moriah.jpg
There's a picture. Compare that to the Menorah and you will see a striking resemblance.

The connection between John the Baptist and a water god comes from the very name John.The rite of baptism can be traced to the sumerian temple city of Eridu.The god of Baptism was Ea,"God of the House of Water'.In the Hellenestic period Ea was known as Oannes,in Greek this is Ioannes,in Latin Johannes,Hebrew Yohanan,and in english John.

Originally posted by mr.smiley
The connection between John the Baptist and a water god comes from the very name John.The rite of baptism can be traced to the sumerian temple city of Eridu.The god of Baptism was Ea,"God of the House of Water'.In the Hellenestic period Ea was known as Oannes,in Greek this is Ioannes,in Latin Johannes,Hebrew Yohanan,and in english John.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Now please, never bring something as amateur and retarded as this to my attention again. Also, give up on the idea that they are even remotely similar. The summary of their similarities is that they were both descended of royalty and had death threats against them. This simply isn't even an argument. See Kali? These are the sort of things that piss me off, this sort of absolute retardation.

Except that the Horus one is an absolute forgerie, there is no evidence for 90% of what Massey claimed. Mithra is closer, but still the evidence isn't there. Why you try to invalidate Christianity like this is beyond my understanding... well not really, but we won't go there... Anyways, if you are going to reject Christianity that is your choice, but for looking to invalidate it because of claims that it stole its mythology is stupid and every single one I have ever seen has been quite soundly debunked.

Originally posted by Nellinator
I researched this a little bit and the whole connection is a bit weak. First off, Oannes is not spelled Ionannes in Greek, Enki was known as Oannes which is similar in spelling to Ionannes which is Yohanan which is John, but the names are different. Most important the similarity in names is completely inconsquential because John is established to have been a real person that baptized people. Therefore this cannot be borrowed if it was a real person that baptized people. Second, Enki, was a lord of the deep waters like groundwater and ocean freshwater. This is significantly different than anything that could be associated with baptism. Third, Enki did not use true baptism, in fact it was quite different considering that it used a small non-immersion font and Jesus was baptized in a river. Also, the symbolism is so completely different that they are hardly comparable. Fourth, water was so commonly used to signify cleansing that it cannot be argued that it was stolen. The symbolism of water in baptism is quite clear as it is a universal idea, however, Christian baptism is a completely seperate symbolism and it's method is seperate from any predecessor.

John as a historical person is up for debate.Their is just as much research against the existance of John as their is for a john.This constitutes for almost everyone in the Bible.
I don't think I made the claim Christians 'stole' baptism,but it is easy to see the gradual evoloution of the process from different religous beliefs.

Well the Christians religion made a literal baptism of the blood of a real lamb or bull into a symbolic baptism of water. Blood has always been very sacred even in pagan beliefs. This is way woman were put upon many pagan pedestals. They were holy because they menstruate and was associated with the moon, or moon cycles and they gave birth. Men could not do that nor understand why, so other myths or stories began to be created that included men giving birth from odd parts of their bodies like Zeus giving birth from his leg for example.

Originally posted by mr.smiley
John as a historical person is up for debate.Their is just as much research against the existance of John as their is for a john.This constitutes for almost everyone in the Bible.
I don't think I made the claim Christians 'stole' baptism,but it is easy to see the gradual evoloution of the process from different religous beliefs.

Well, the Jews never used bulls, bulls are never connected to any sacrifice or anything. There was always baptism in Judaism, there was also washing. Also, in Judaic law a menstruating woman was unclean during that time and had to be washed with water to become clean again making this whole argument look pretty ridiculous because this is entirely in contradiction to everything you just said.

While I actually admire the fact that you're trying to conjure up facts to refute the connection between Jesus and other dieties, it's a losing battle. It's not just Horus, and whether or not this Massey fellow is full of crap is irrelevant.

There's literally hundreds of (confirmed, factual) connections between the life and works of Jesus and "deities" that predate him by anywhere from a few decades to numerous centuries.

It's the same story. And this is FAR from the first religion forum thread to be dedicated to it.

As for calling Joe Campbell an idiot, read some of his stuff first. Until his death he was one of the world's foremost authorities on mythology and comparative religion. Discrediting him based on a line or two from an internet forum is hardly fair.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
While I actually admire the fact that you're trying to conjure up facts to refute the connection between Jesus and other dieties, it's a losing battle. It's not just Horus, and whether or not this Massey fellow is full of crap is irrelevant.

There's literally hundreds of (confirmed, factual) connections between the life and works of Jesus and "deities" that predate him by anywhere from a few decades to numerous centuries.

It's the same story. And this is FAR from the first religion forum thread to be dedicated to it.

As for calling Joe Campbell an idiot, read some of his stuff first. Until his death he was one of the world's foremost authorities on mythology and comparative religion. Discrediting him based on a line or two from an internet forum is hardly fair.

1700 BC was around the time the Israelites were thought to have entered Egypt, predating the inception of the Horus story. It's pretty apparent that the Egyptians based Horus off of the Israelite Messiah stories. Much of the original messiah prophecy was probably passed on to the Israelites and the other sons of Abraham roughly around 2100 BC - predating most if not all similar stories from other cultures.

Like Abraham and Jacob - the Israelites were very nomadic, moving from various portions of what we now know to be the Middle East, Syria, and Africa. This is probably another reason why so many similar stories of a messiah can be found in other cultures within these regions.

If you really want to get deep into Christian theology though, the story of the messiah is actually referenced in the books of Adam and Eve. This historical account of mankind's mother and father is thought to have taken place roughly around 4000 BC. The oldest manuscripts of the Old Testament include these books, and were found in the Dead Sea scrolls which themselves date back to roughly 200 BC.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Hardly up for debate. The evidence against is so very weak that it is grasping for straws. But at least you have done real research that makes sense and has some validity to it and you don't piss me off 🙂

Well, the Jews never used bulls, bulls are never connected to any sacrifice or anything. There was always baptism in Judaism, there was also washing. Also, in Judaic law a menstruating woman was unclean during that time and had to be washed with water to become clean again making this whole argument look pretty ridiculous because this is entirely in contradiction to everything you just said.

LOL.At least we can have a civilized debate.

Bulls were connected in sacrafice with Mithra.Mithra was a god of fertility and was also associated with war.According to the mythology of Mithra,he slayed the bull known as Geush Urvan.All plants and crops growing were atrributed to the corpse of the sacrificed Geush Urvan.

You can find plenty on this particular story but I suggest the Ultimate Encylopedia Of Mythology.

Originally posted by Thundar
1700 BC was around the time the Israelites were thought to have entered Egypt, predating the inception of the Horus story. It's pretty apparent that the Egyptians based Horus off of the Israelite Messiah stories. Much of the original messiah prophecy was probably passed on to the Israelites and the other sons of Abraham roughly around 2100 BC - predating most if not all similar stories from other cultures.

Like Abraham and Jacob - the Israelites were very nomadic, moving from various portions of what we now know to be the Middle East, Syria, and Africa. This is probably another reason why so many similar stories of a messiah can be found in other cultures within these regions.

If you really want to get deep into Christian theology though, the story of the messiah is actually referenced in the books of Adam and Eve. This historical account of mankind's mother and father is thought to have taken place roughly around 4000 BC. The oldest manuscripts of the Old Testament include these books, and were found in the Dead Sea scrolls which themselves date back to roughly 200 BC.

do you have outside sources for any of these claims?

some are interesting and generally redefine a lot of what I had thought of that era.