Science cannnot disprove the existence of God.

Started by King Kandy23 pages

Originally posted by Ytse
Science must assume that nature is uniform for it to work at all. For instance we can observe a million times that an apple falling from a tree will move toward earth rather than away from it. But can all of those observation tell us about the future?

This makes me think that you don't understand science.

That's why science says you can't prove a theory. You can't prove anything. This is the basis for the scientific method. You can only gather EVIDENCE for something, but never prove it. Even if you do the test a million times, you can't prove that the next time won't contradict it.

This function is built into science. It doesn't contradict it at all.

Originally posted by King Kandy
This makes me think that you don't understand science.

Huh? You just used a whole paragraph to basically restate what I said in my previous post.

I'm saying all of that to lead into my original question:

Why is science so successful? You said it yourself, science proves nothing. So why do we place so much confidence in it if, despite all of it's successful predictions, it cannot tell us with any certainty what the nature of reality will be beyond our limited observations? And I do mean limited--as in, an infinitesimally small portion of all of reality.

EDIT: Oh, and what do you mean by evidence? How do you know it's evidence for anything if we have to even assume there's a connection at all between specific observations.

If you predict something and your prediction complies with observation, that's evidence for the method you used for prediction being correct.

Originally posted by King Kandy
If you predict something and your prediction complies with observation, that's evidence for the method you used for prediction being correct.

Even using the same methodology and getting the same results, how can one know there is any connection between two specific observations?

Originally posted by Ytse
Even using the same methodology and getting the same results, how can one know there is any connection between two specific observations?

Because every single factor is the same.

Scientific findings are based on repeatable observations under the same conditions.

E.g. if I use a cell culture model I can't necessarily apply my observations to organotypic culture, nor acute preparations, nor in vivo.

Science predicts under the same conditions. An apple is observed to fall under a particular set of conditions repeatedly. A prediction is made that apples will fall under these conditions. The prediction doesn't assert that apples won't "fall" up under different conditions.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Because every single factor is the same.

If you claim that this proves a connection between all past observations then why can't it work the other way...with future observations?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Scientific findings are based on repeatable observations under the same conditions.

Yes, I was taking that into account. 🙂

Originally posted by Ytse
If you claim that this proves a connection between all past observations then why can't it work the other way...with future observations?

Because it might happen differently in the future.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Because it might happen differently in the future.

You're saying both:

If all factors are the same then there is a connection between two observations.

and

If all factors are the same then the results still may be different. ((and so, there was no connection after all))

It's contradictory.

Ytse: long story short, post modernism at its radical extreme is a logical fallacy

"you cannot prove something wont happen therefore it can"

which should be self evident in its fallaciousness

EDIT: a little harsh prior, sorry if you read that 🙂

Originally posted by inimalist
"you cannot prove something wont happen therefore it can"

If you really feel like arguing that statement against people, go to the 4th grade

I don't recall saying anything like that. Are you putting words in my mouth or just giving me a warning or what?

Heh...

haha, lol

it really sounded like you were going in that direction.

explain a bit more what you mean by "justify"

Originally posted by Biscuit
the existence of God can be neither proved nor disproved. that is the point of religion. faith.
Originally posted by JacopeX
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/443465_10-you-cannot-prove-gods-existence#post8813657
Originally posted by Burnt Pancakes
Co-Signed
Originally posted by inimalist
it really sounded like you were going in that direction.

Eh, there's no reason to even begin to try and prove something that claims that faith is necessary itself.

explain a bit more what you mean by "justify"

Well, from a purely scientific standpoint how can we explain if science is successful or not?

This is an old one you may be familiar with. Science tells us that tomorrow morning the sun will rise as it does every morning. Men have been making the same observation about the motion of the sun since prehistory. And every day it indeed rises again. But why is science successful in making such predictions?

As I said earlier we reason that the sun will rise in the morning because it's always risen in the morning in the past. Now the question is, "how do we know the future will resemble the past?" This can be answered with what's called the Principle of the Uniformity of Nature. That nothing that is now impossible in principle was ever the case in the past. But how does one justify that principle? One could reason that in the past the future was always like the past. But that is attempting to justify induction with induction, and so gets us nowhere.

Originally posted by Ytse
Well, from a purely scientific standpoint how can we explain if science is successful or not?

well, that requires a lot more definition.

Speaking generally, there is no such thing as "science". There are theories and hypotheses, but no overarching theory of science. It also depends what you mean by successful. Science by definition places success in predictive power, so it might be said that any particular scientific theory is successful if it is able to predict the results of a controlled experiment.

There is also the scientific method itself. Here, the only way the scientific method is successful is if you define success as "predicting or explaining the natural world". It is successful in this because it is the only method or theory in existence that can even come close to explaining the mechanisms behind the world.

Originally posted by Ytse
This is an old one you may be familiar with. Science tells us that tomorrow morning the sun will rise as it does every morning. Men have been making the same observation about the motion of the sun since prehistory. And every day it indeed rises again. But why is science successful in making such predictions?

This is an interesting interpretation, but a little askew from how a astronomer or astrophysicist might describe it.

For instance, the sun has no motion in the sky, although we see it as such, and coincidently, it does not rise. This is both a geocentric and ethnocentric way to describe the solar system.

Rather, scientists would explain the apparent motion of the sun through the sky as the rotation of the earth, and its rising each morning as the light from the sun reaching the point at which we are measuring from.

Originally posted by Ytse
As I said earlier we reason that the sun will rise in the morning because it's always risen in the morning in the past.

this is also wrong. While it is true that every morning you or I wake up the sun will rise, and the same was true of our fathers and grandfathers, and the same will be true for the next many generations of our children.

However, there was a time when the earth did no exist for the sun to "rise" on. There was a time when the sun was not in existence. There will be a time when the sun does not exist again.

The reason we say that the sun will rise tomorrow has nothing to do with the consistency of it. From a basic human psychological level, yes, thats exactly it, but from a scientific perspective, the sun will come up tomorrow morning because the earth will rotate to a point where the light from the sun reaches the place where you are.

Originally posted by Ytse
Now the question is, "how do we know the future will resemble the past?" This can be answered with what's called the Principle of the Uniformity of Nature. That nothing that is now impossible in principle was ever the case in the past. But how does one justify that principle? One could reason that in the past the future was always like the past. But that is attempting to justify induction with induction, and so gets us nowhere.

I did a google for this "principal of the uniformity of nature" and came up with nothing. It is something I have NEVER come across, nor does it sound remotely close to anything that is true in science.

For instance, the big bang and cosmic fine tuning would fly directly in the face of this.

Can you give me a link or whatever to where you got this as a description of science?

Originally posted by inimalist
well, that requires a lot more definition.

Scientific enterprise.

This is an interesting interpretation, but a little askew from how a astronomer or astrophysicist might describe it.

I was merely describing it from a specific point of view.

The reason we say that the sun will rise tomorrow has nothing to do with the consistency of it. From a basic human psychological level, yes, thats exactly it, but from a scientific perspective, the sun will come up tomorrow morning because the earth will rotate to a point where the light from the sun reaches the place where you are.

Perhaps the way I put it wasn't very clear.

It doesn't matter how you describe this particular phenomena. When I talk about the sunrise you know what I mean and you know it involves a lot of physical principles which we believe to hold true whether our sun is there or not. It's these principles which are consistent; which act as the clockwork driving our sun and our planet.

I did a google for this "principal of the uniformity of nature" and came up with nothing. It is something I have NEVER come across, nor does it sound remotely close to anything that is true in science.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniformity_of_nature

Originally posted by Ytse
Scientific enterprise.

what does that mean? defining things is scientific? only scientists define things?

Originally posted by Ytse
I was merely describing it from a specific point of view.

Perhaps the way I put it wasn't very clear.

It doesn't matter how you describe this particular phenomena. When I talk about the sunrise you know what I mean and you know it involves a lot of physical principles which we believe to hold true whether our sun is there or not. It's these principles which are consistent; which act as the clockwork driving our sun and our planet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniformity_of_nature

so your argument is that since it is impossible for time to be both finite and infinite science can't exist?

I'd be careful how much credence is put into those "philosophy of science" rules of thumb. The principal is generally something that scientists must assume in order to make any conclusions about the universe, but is clearly something that can be overlooked in instances like the big bang, quantum states of matter, or cosmic fine tuning.

Its an interesting thing you are putting forth, but it seems like too much of an academic word play. Good job, those are fun.

You have argued this before, whob.

Originally posted by Ytse
Why don't you tell me why science is successful then? It certainly cannot justify itself.
Originally posted by Ytse
I'm not saying it isn't useful. Indeed it is a very useful tool. I'm saying science cannot explain why science works. And I'm saying that it ultimately rests on a non-scientific foundation.

WHY science works is not a scientific question, its a philosophical one.

Thus you are placing the absurd specification that everything be able to be explained by science.

Originally posted by Ytse
Science must assume that nature is uniform for it to work at all. For instance we can observe a million times that an apple falling from a tree will move toward earth rather than away from it.
it has demonstrated as such. An Apple in China falls the same way as it does in Mexico.
Originally posted by Ytse
But can all of those observation tell us about the future?

Lets have a practical demonstratoin. Would you ever step off a cliff, or drink EtBr assuming you're not going to plumet to your death or develop cancers?

Originally posted by Ytse
So, ultimately science calls upon us to abandon this "radical skepticism" for it to work at all.

What is "radical skepticism"? Where are you pulling this from?

Originally posted by Ytse
Science demands all sorts of rigor for knowledge to be validated but at it's very core is an assumption. And assumptions aren't very scientific.
Just because you have not taken the time to examine the history of science and what actually could and could not validate its practice does not mean this does not exist. You're placing an abusrd criterion on an untestable idea. Thats not science, thats philosophy.

Are you then suggesting that science be disbanded?

Originally posted by inimalist
so your argument is that since it is impossible for time to be both finite and infinite science can't exist?

Not at all. Just illustrating that there is an element of faith inherent in scientific enterprise (by that I mean not only the practical application of science but broad research and development).

Ultimately we rely on inductive reasoning to go from specific propositions (that specimen of Cygnus atratus is black), to general ones (all Cygnus atratus are black). And that leads to the problem of induction. That we cannot justify the use of induction except via induction. Hume came to the conclusion that we must adopt "practical skepticism" to survive at all. This is the faith I am talking about.

I'm also trying to set up the idea that religion and science aren't opposites. And that they are generally in entirely different spheres. I'm saying that it is logical to say God sustains the universe and therefore inductive reasoning is justified (and although you could disagree that there is a God in the first place, Im not trying to mount an argument about that, just explaining what I'm getting at).

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To Alliance: I think I've replied to some of what you've said in my response to inimalist. Anything you don't think I've covered just let me know.

To Adam_PoE: Matt Damon sucks. 🙂