Originally posted by NoFate007
I actually really liked the Death of Superman...but I think the death of Cap is just such a $ deal with no other point that its just kind of stupid.
Yeah... 😬, 'cause of course DC makes comic books with the sole purpose of good writing and not making profits.
Superman's death aswell as Captain America's death were both money-driven, it just so happens that Cap's was better.
Ha. "Darker times ahead" Because there wasn't just a Civil War. Just now. Right before.
In any case, I'm sure Cap's death was part symbology(for the writers) and part financial power-play(for the publishers). I wouldn't say that it's supposed to be setting the mood for the future sort of symbology, I'd vote for political critique or a reflection of real-life politics, since writers have already fessed-up that parts of Civil War are that in entirety. Which is useless to me, who goes to comic books to get entertained and use my imagination, not ponder real-world politics. But whatever.
To say that Superman's death wasn't a bit of both is pretty ignorant, especially because Superman means about a thousand times more to actual people than Captain America.
Originally posted by CasanoVa
Yeah... 😬, 'cause of course DC makes comic books with the sole purpose of good writing and not making profits.
and yet their books have a consistently higher standard of writing...
Superman's death aswell as Captain America's death were both money-driven, it just so happens that Cap's was better.
are you serious? superman's was far more poignant and worthwhile... he saved metropolis and probably the world from doomsday... cap... cap just got shot...
Originally posted by pr1983
and yet their books have a consistently higher standard of writing...
Thats debatable.
Originally posted by pr1983
are you serious? superman's was far more poignant and worthwhile... he saved metropolis and probably the world from doomsday... cap... cap just got shot...
Supes death was the classic hero death, going out fighting. Cap's death was more realistic. Tried as a criminal and gunned down. Both are two completely different things so I don't see how you can compare it like that
Originally posted by marvelprince
Thats debatable.
to be honest (and maybe a bit mean, sorry), its not imo... if i pick up, say, the 10 best books each company has to offer, i'm pretty sure that the DC books are going to have the majority over marvel...
Supes death was the classic hero death, going out fighting. Cap's death was more realistic. Tried as a criminal and gunned down.
In superman's world his death was just as realistic...
Both are two completely different things so I don't see how you can compare it like that
i was responding to the earlier post... and to be honest, i sort of can... marvel didn't kill him during civil war because he'd have become a martyr, so they waited until it was over to try and keep the momentum going... at least thats how i see it...
sorry if my post seemed... snotty i guess is the word...
Originally posted by pr1983
to be honest (and maybe a bit mean, sorry), its not imo... if i pick up, say, the 10 best books each company has to offer, i'm pretty sure that the DC books are going to have the majority over marvel...
As a guy who reads both I have to disagree. Right now I can name about twice as much Marvel books that I'd rather be reading than DC.
Originally posted by pr1983
In superman's world his death was just as realistic...
Imo realism doesn't read as a cliche. His death was just that.
Originally posted by pr1983
i was responding to the earlier post... and to be honest, i sort of can... marvel didn't kill him during civil war because he'd have become a martyr, so they waited until it was over to try and keep the momentum going... at least thats how i see it...
I agree about the martyr thing but if thats the route they took then I would have cried cliche. Honestly, after the war with Cap already defeated who saw it coming?
Originally posted by pr1983
sorry if my post seemed... snotty i guess is the word...
Np.
Originally posted by marvelprince
As a guy who reads both I have to disagree. Right now I can name about twice as much Marvel books that I'd rather be reading than DC.
i actually read both too... my one must-have book every month is astonishing x-men (my favourite character being cyclops, and by favourite i mean all companies), i actually like more marvel characters than i do DC ones too... i just find myself enjoying DC books more...
Imo realism doesn't read as a cliche. His death was just that.
Wasn't for me... as validus said, Superman being killed by brute force? better (and with more impact) than magic or kryptonite... and the battle outside the daily planet was well done imo...
I agree about the martyr thing but if thats the route they took then I would have cried cliche. Honestly, after the war with Cap already defeated who saw it coming?
but thats the point, nobody saw it coming because nobody cared enough to try... at least for me, i thought it was a huge cop-out to be honest...
i didn't want cap to die, but i don't think anyone is that worried over whether he'll be back or not...
even if quesada doesnt want to bring steve back, he'll be forced to eventually sales-wise... civil war did alot for cap as a character, and they do what, make him pussy out and surrender and then they kill him?
i really think they weren't looking at the big picture to be honest...
Originally posted by pr1983
i actually read both too... my one must-have book every month is astonishing x-men (my favourite character being cyclops, and by favourite i mean all companies), i actually like more marvel characters than i do DC ones too... i just find myself enjoying DC books more...
Personal taste I guess. Only books from DC I really can say that I look forward too are JLA, JSA, All new Atom and Green Arrow. I read many other but these are my must haves.
Originally posted by pr1983
Wasn't for me... as validus said, Superman being killed by brute force? better (and with more impact) than magic or kryptonite... and the battle outside the daily planet was well done imo...
For me it was. Any other way would have been a cop out and this way established Doomsday as a badass. I never said it wasn't well done, just done before.
Originally posted by pr1983
but thats the point, nobody saw it coming because nobody cared enough to try... at least for me, i thought it was a huge cop-out to be honest...
Considering how many people were predictiing his death I have to disagree. People just didn't expect it to happen post-CW.
Originally posted by pr1983
i didn't want cap to die, but i don't think anyone is that worried over whether he'll be back or not...
Of course not. May not be soon but we all know he will eventually. Same thing when Supes died.
Originally posted by pr1983
even if quesada doesnt want to bring steve back, he'll be forced to eventually sales-wise... civil war did alot for cap as a character, and they do what, make him pussy out and surrender and then they kill him?
Don't know about forced, but Steve will return.
Originally posted by pr1983
i really think they weren't looking at the big picture to be honest...
Actually considering Brubaker said he was planning this storyline from for a while, apparently even before CW and he just fit it into the story. And while sales were good, Cap's death shot sales up and I'm sure the next few issues will have great numbers.
Originally posted by marvelprince
Personal taste I guess. Only books from DC I really can say that I look forward too are JLA, JSA, All new Atom and Green Arrow. I read many other but these are my must haves.
mine is pretty much all the superman stuff (bar confidential), green lantern, jla, jsa, flash (because of the slim hope that wally will return), i think thats it for dc...
marvel, i was disappointed by a lot of civil war, new avengers, i just don't like the lineup (pre or post CW), annihilation as good and i'll be picking up the tpb's as im a huge surfer fan...
For me it was. Any other way would have been a cop out and this way established Doomsday as a badass. I never said it wasn't well done, just done before.
maybe, but i don't think there was much weight behind other deaths and superman's (up to that point)
Considering how many people were predictiing his death I have to disagree. People just didn't expect it to happen post-CW.
but by that time, what point was there in killing him?
Don't know about forced, but Steve will return.
if his replacement doesn't sell well, i think they'll have to...
Actually considering Brubaker said he was planning this storyline from for a while, apparently even before CW and he just fit it into the story. And while sales were good, Cap's death shot sales up and I'm sure the next few issues will have great numbers.
but why not, say, have cap go on the run after civil war... you'd get great sales for quite a while... of course that would have meant changing the (frankly poor imo) ending to civil war...
Originally posted by pr1983
mine is pretty much all the superman stuff (bar confidential), green lantern, jla, jsa, flash (because of the slim hope that wally will return), i think thats it for dc...
I picked up Flash for a while for the hope that Bart would be a fun Flash, like how Flash was on JLU. Needless to say I was dissapointed.
Originally posted by pr1983
marvel, i was disappointed by a lot of civil war, new avengers, i just don't like the lineup (pre or post CW), annihilation as good and i'll be picking up the tpb's as im a huge surfer fan...
I liked CW, but there a lot of the books I buy aren't too steeped in CW. Daredevil, Iron Fist, Moon Knight and Iron Fist only touch on CW and then I love Thunderbolts, New and Mighty Avengers which deal pretty heavily in the CW stuff.
Originally posted by pr1983
maybe, but i don't think there was much weight behind other deaths and superman's (up to that point)
True
Originally posted by pr1983
but by that time, what point was there in killing him?
They had kind of painted themselves into a corner. He had surrendered and only things left to do were to put him in jail. If they have him escape he's have to be on the run and him getting redemption wouldn't sit well with me (as I don't think he would accept anything less than the Initiative dismantled). Brubaker already had just told a story of hero in prison so he probably didn't want to go that route again. Other than let him stifle in jail they did sonething with the character that got lots of attention.
Originally posted by pr1983
if his replacement doesn't sell well, i think they'll have to...
Depends who the replacement is imo.
Originally posted by pr1983
but why not, say, have cap go on the run after civil war... you'd get great sales for quite a while... of course that would have meant changing the (frankly poor imo) ending to civil war...
Because Cap felt he was wrong and so felt he had to be punished. He may not feel that his stance (anti-registration) was wrong, but he went about it the wrong way and knows he had a price to pay.
Originally posted by marvelprince
[B]I picked up Flash for a while for the hope that Bart would be a fun Flash, like how Flash was on JLU. Needless to say I was dissapointed.
i don't like jlu flash... 🙁
I liked CW, but there a lot of the books I buy aren't too steeped in CW. Daredevil, Iron Fist, Moon Knight and Iron Fist only touch on CW and then I love Thunderbolts, New and Mighty Avengers which deal pretty heavily in the CW stuff.
i like daredevil, haven't picked it up recently though... i don't like the line up of either avengers team, so i tend not to buy em... i miss the classic avengers team to be honest...
They had kind of painted themselves into a corner. He had surrendered and only things left to do were to put him in jail. If they have him escape he's have to be on the run and him getting redemption wouldn't sit well with me (as I don't think he would accept anything less than the Initiative dismantled). Brubaker already had just told a story of hero in prison so he probably didn't want to go that route again. Other than let him stifle in jail they did sonething with the character that got lots of attention.
which just annoys the hell out of me to be honest...
Depends who the replacement is imo.
i really don't think it does, because no matter who it is, it won't be steve... to me, steve is the only captain america... well, him and washington...
Because Cap felt he was wrong and so felt he had to be punished. He may not feel that his stance (anti-registration) was wrong, but he went about it the wrong way and knows he had a price to pay.
i actually think cap was an idiot to come to that conclusion... it was stark who decided to hunt down heroes and lock them up, cap was more the reactionary than anything imo... yes there was collateral damage, but it happened imo from trying to force people who've saved the world a dozen times over to sign some stupid form and give up their identities...
Originally posted by pr1983
i don't like jlu flash... 🙁
He's hilarious.
Originally posted by pr1983
i like daredevil, haven't picked it up recently though... i don't like the line up of either avengers team, so i tend not to buy em... i miss the classic avengers team to be honest...
Thats cool. I've always liked the Avengers, but the new Avengers where pretty much my dream team. Mighty Avengers is closer to the old Avengers "feel" and I'm liking Ares. New is still my fav but I'm enjoying the hell out of both Avengers titles.
Originally posted by pr1983
which just annoys the hell out of me to be honest...
I can see how but there were really only a few places they could move with Cap after CW.
Originally posted by pr1983
i really don't think it does, because no matter who it is, it won't be steve... to me, steve is the only captain america... well, him and washington...
I agree. Cap will ALWAYS be Steve, but that doesn't mean that his replacement won't sell. Winter Soldier has been garnering a lot of interest on his own.
Originally posted by pr1983
i actually think cap was an idiot to come to that conclusion... it was stark who decided to hunt down heroes and lock them up, cap was more the reactionary than anything imo... yes there was collateral damage, but it happened imo from trying to force people who've saved the world a dozen times over to sign some stupid form and give up their identities...
I think it was the only logical conclusion. Sure Maria came down on him hard, but he could have used that and gone to Washington to speak out against it. Imagine how bad SHIELD would have looked forcing Cap to join before the SHRA is even passed. At that point he still had a lot of pull with the public so he could have accomplished something. He just had a knee jerk reaction and along the way he just wanted to beat Tony. And if you think Cap is one to brush off collateral damage you don't really know Cap. Once he realized he was causing more harm than good there was no doubt he would stop and surrender.
Originally posted by MobraYes but its a huge change. Their is no "Doctor Strange reverses time" change. This is going to take a while to be resolved. Its not your typical "Lets save the world book anymore". People like Spiderman have been outed, their really is no going back to the way things were at this point. Many of the risks marvel has taken with civil war are pretty big and I gotta say its good to read something different than your typical "Heroes team up to stop big threat book" that (even though I liked both) is basically all that WW3 and Infinite Crisis were.
Ha. "Darker times ahead" Because there wasn't just a Civil War. Just now. Right before.In any case, I'm sure Cap's death was part symbology(for the writers) and part financial power-play(for the publishers). I wouldn't say that it's supposed to be setting the mood for the future sort of symbology, I'd vote for political critique or a reflection of real-life politics, since writers have already fessed-up that parts of Civil War are that in entirety. Which is useless to me, who goes to comic books to get entertained and use my imagination, not ponder real-world politics. But whatever.
To say that Superman's death wasn't a bit of both is pretty ignorant, especially because Superman means about a thousand times more to actual people than Captain America.