USH'S MATRIX GAME 2006 FOURTH ASSIGNMENT (PHILOSOPHY)- 'The Door'

Originally posted by Newjak
"They could have defeated the Romans but then again a black hole could form right inside my head. The fact is that the Romans never had an advanced Zion to face before and if they did the Romans probably would have had the same technology but they would have been bigger."

"As for the A.I. winning. It seemed to me the King's plan on winning was simple. Get as many resources and outlast the humans until they were able to get bigger. In essence they won because they could spread faster then us."

"Hence I would rather be able to spread then be advanced. And in primitive times spreading was easier the bigger you were. Right now Zion can not spread at all despite our technology and the machines despite their best abilities I bet are finding it hard to really spread anymore as well."

"That is a mixture of misdirection, misconception, and irrelevance. To say that if the Romans faced Zion they would have the same technology is simply to ignore the question I actually asked. Your example is misleading because the Romans were both advanced and widely spread. Sennacherib's victory had nothing to do with spreading whatsoever, and the resources of Humanity were far greater than those of the Machines. Your example of Humanity being unable to spread now ignores the fact that you are inferior in both size AND technology to the System, so such a measure of limitation is inevitable and demonstrates nothing.

"If you would truly say that a large number of cavemen are more developed as a society than a smaller number of modern day people then I think you put yourself in a position where you fail to understand the operation of society. That being the case, there is little for you to learn."

A warning to Berserker. Three warnings and Lo Qi will no longer have interest in conversing and you fail this part of the story.

Please focus on the subject being discussed and do not twist questions to your own ends.

Melkor is running into a dangerous area as well, as Lo Qi did not say that all advancment was technological, nor did he say that the most advanced society would always win.

I would also advance that the chances of any of you truly thinking that the Roman Empire was a more advanced society than Zion are about zero.

But I was commenting on what Berserker said here.

Well then that is odd, because Berserker didn't say the more advanced society would win either.

Well, Berserker is explaining it all with referencing wars.

And this stuff about technological advancement- Lo Qi said that he is sorry but Machines are more technologically advanced, and Heph asked why he said so. I replied that there are diffrents measures of advancement( and Sirin was referencing technological advancement as well).

That's because he was following Berserker's line of reasoning which was based entirely upon technology.

And Berserker is referencing wars in a way that is saying that size is more important than technology, so again, you are misinterpreting.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
"That is a mixture of misdirection, misconception, and irrelevance. To say that if the Romans faced Zion they would have the same technology is simply to ignore the question I actually asked. Your example is misleading because the Romans were both advanced and widely spread. Sennacherib's victory had nothing to do with spreading whatsoever, and the resources of Humanity were far greater than those of the Machines. Your example of Humanity being unable to spread now ignores the fact that you are inferior in both size AND technology to the System, so such a measure of limitation is inevitable and demonstrates nothing.

"If you would truly say that a large number of cavemen are more developed as a society than a smaller number of modern day people then I think you put yourself in a position where you fail to understand the operation of society. That being the case, there is little for you to learn."

A warning to Berserker. Three warnings and Lo Qi will no longer have interest in conversing and you fail this part of the story.

Please focus on the subject being discussed and do not twist questions to your own ends.

Melkor is running into a dangerous area as well, as Lo Qi did not say that all advancment was technological, nor did he say that the most advanced society would always win.

I would also advance that the chances of any of you truly thinking that the Roman Empire was a more advanced society than Zion are about zero.

I thought I was supposed to run with that logic then comparing to technology. If not then I'm sorry 😛

If not then I will correct that now.

"I don't know why we are getting on this whole tech thing so much. I said I would rather be able to spread and have space. As for being advanced I say advancment is made on the individual basis and sspreading is the true purpose of society."

Is that better Ush?

It comes down to the same thing, Berserker. If you prioritise spreading over advancement, you would value the widely spread cavemen more than the small number of adcanced people, saying the caveman's society is greater.

"I think the point here is being lost," says Lo Qi. "This is not a question of how you would chose things to happen. it is a matter of how we would judge the second of the two purposes we defined earlier for society- its purpose to develop. Which society would you think has fulfilled that purpose better- the one that has spread more, or the one that had advanced more?"

"One that has advanced more, I think we all besides Berserker agree with it. A matter of quality versus quantity. At certain point spreading becomes secondary issue, as shown by human history."

Ok I think I'm getting what is happening now. Boy am I stupid and it is going to sound like I'm pretty much backtracking here. Thats what I get for reading everything quickly after getting off of work. 😛

So just to clarify to make sure I'm on the right train of thinking. We are trying answer whether spreading or advancing fullfiils society purpose more right?

Yup.

And he'll add an addendum to that-

"What does spreading actually achieve?"

Berserker thinks about it.

"Well spreading achieves very little you aren't advanced enough to use it. So yeah for importance to society advancement is better."

"If it achieves nothing, why is it done?"

"It is done because two things can not occupy the same space and use the same resources. OK just for analogy however bad it may be. Two people cannot drink the exact same cup of water or eat the exact same piece of corn at the same time."

"Why not just limit the size of the society?"

"Well, I could say that it is basic biological imperative- to preserve the species. But humans grow beyond this, of course. Even in animal world, the more primitive the beings, the more numerous they are. In advanced society it takes much more effort and resources to provide for well-being and education of individual."

"Ah! The instinct to preserve the species, yes? So, at base, the desires to expand society were actually contributing to which goal?"

"Would limiting the size of society just be limiting another valuable resource because the most important thing to society is survival and the limiting of any resouce to that goal is counter productive?"

"I believe you just used a key word there, Berserker."

"Survival?"

Melkor nods.