Treaty of Versailles

Started by Sorgo X3 pages

Treaty of Versailles

What's your opinion regarding the TOV? Do you think it was fair for them to label Germany responsible for causing the war when it wasn't them? To pay for damages that everyone else should have paid for as well?

In my opinion, other members of the Triple Alliance and the members of the Triple Entente should have forked over some money as well and had restrictions. Besides, Germany did some major damage but Britain and other countries also applied the front when it came to damage as well.

Discuss.

The French were just trying to get back at Germany for embarrassing them. And shouldn't this go in the History Forum?

I think this would be better suited for the History Forum

That's what I said, kinda. u_u

This would be better suited for the History froum 13

As far as the treaty goes...Germany is lucky that the French didn't get their way...they wanted to DE-industrialise the German state...permenantly.

That is some scary sh*t...

Originally posted by Alliance
This would be better suited for the History froum 13

As far as the treaty goes...Germany is lucky that the French didn't get their way...they wanted to DE-industrialise the German state...permenantly.

That is some scary sh*t...

Thus WWII was imminent

Moved

Incidentally, Germany invaded Belgium, which was the effective start of the war being what it was. That's the largest part of blame.

Originally posted by Eccentric
That's what I said, kinda. u_u
Oh sorry, I didn't see

We could have avoided a later war if only the representatives had listen to Ho Chi Minh.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Moved

Incidentally, Germany invaded Belgium, which was the effective start of the war being what it was. That's the largest part of blame.

From what I understand, the actual start of the war was when Austria-Hungary invaded Belgium because they did not take action to Franz Ferdinand's assassination in Sarajevo.

Well to quote every father of young children: "I don't care who started it."

Maybe Germany didn't start it, they sure as hell ****ed the whole thing up and turned it into the World War that it became.

Originally posted by Sorgo X
From what I understand, the actual start of the war was when Austria-Hungary invaded Belgium because they did not take action to Franz Ferdinand's assassination in Sarajevo.

Whoa, what happened to the conecpt of 'understanding' here?

Are you saying the BELGIANS shot the Archduke?

Holy crap, that is a worrying state of educational affairs.

I suggest you go back and learn some basic history (and Geography) before trying to raise discussion on a subject that you clearly have no idea about.

A Serbian man shot the Archduke, who was heir to the Austria-Hungarian thrown. Then, Austra-Hungaria demanded that Serbia takes some action toward it. Like to punish the wrong doers. As far as I remember Serbia didn't do anything, and Austria-Hungaria attacked Serbia, and then there was that whole chain effect that spread because the countries formed into alliances.

Fritz Fischer then preety much made Germany aggresive toward France. Then, they made a whole plan by makign 2 fronts, and making an attack on the right flank in which they would take Belgium. French made a plan to attack Germany's main industries, and Russia made a plan to just mobilize their armies against both Austra-Hungary and Germany at the same time. This escaladed the conflict by ALOT.

As far as I see it, Austria started the war, and Germany just helped fuel the conflict. However, Germany did cause a huge amount of damage.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
We could have avoided a later war if only the representatives had listen to Ho Chi Minh.

Well, thankfully no one was listening to the French at the time 😉 last of all some radical communist studing in France.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Whoa, what happened to the conecpt of 'understanding' here?

Are you saying the BELGIANS shot the Archduke?

Holy crap, that is a worrying state of educational affairs.

I suggest you go back and learn some basic history (and Geography) before trying to raise discussion on a subject that you clearly have no idea about.

Before you go on into some unessecary rant about how people lack education, I suggest you go to awareness school ...

Considering I never said the Belgians shot the Archduke.

Ignorance FTW.

By the way, that was a mistake. I meant to say they invaded Serbia, but I sometimes get the two mixed.

Don't be contemptible, Sorgo X. Serbains shot the Archduke. You said that Austria-Hungary invaded Belgium because THEY did nothing about the Archduke being shot; as you meant Serbia, and as it was Serbians who did it, you VERY VERY CLEARLY meant that Belgians shot him, and all your childish 'ftw' nonsense does not change what an almighty mess up you made there. The alternative, btw, is that you meant A-H invaded Belgium because they did nothing about Serbians having shot the Archduke. Which is just as stupid a thing to say, perhaps even stupider.

And no intelligent person can POSSIBLY mix up Serbia and Belgium. This is not like Serbia and Croatia you know. Belgium is a totally different country on the other side of Europe. But as it is, you did mix them up- both of the tarhget of A-H and as the killers of the Archduke, because the two are directly linked.

So again, check your facts, your history, your Geography,. Also be a man and admit when you got something totally wrong- don't try and pathetically wriggle out of it in a way so publically embarrassing. You don't 'sometimes' get them mixed at all. All that happened is that you saw me talk about Germany invading a country and assume I meant the country A-H invaded, because of your very basic level of knowledge in this area not being able to understand what I was saying. You mis-judged.

So, let's return to the point here. Germany invaded Belgium. That was the crutch point that led to them being blamed for things,. Belgium was neutral, was no threat to Germany, never threatened Germany, and Germany had in fact signed a treaty saying they would guarantee Belgium's neutrality. Likewise, Britain and France were both pledged to defend Belgium if it was attacked. It was a totally innocent country that western Europe had pledged to defend. Germany completely ignored that because it did not suit their invasion plans. They went into it and that is the biggest factor that brought the UK into the war.

If Germany had not done that it would have been different. But the invasion of Belgium turned the war from a fatal spat between powers into a scenario where Germany was absolutely now the bad guy.

(Incidentally, in fact, Serbia agreed to nearly all of A-H's demands, but they invaded anyway)

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Don't be contemptible, Sorgo X. Serbains shot the Archduke. You said that Austria-Hungary invaded Belgium because THEY did nothing about the Archduke being shot; as you meant Serbia, and as it was Serbians who did it, you VERY VERY CLEARLY meant that Belgians shot him, and all your childish 'ftw' nonsense does not change what an almighty mess up you made there.

I actually made a major mistake, because A-H never invaded Serbia. A-H declared war on Serbia, but the Russian mobilized before they could act.

I know the Serbians shot the Archduke. Princip was Serbian. The Black Hand was Serbian. I'm trying to explain to you it was a mistake.

I meant that A-H declared war on Serbia. I made quite a mistake, although I did not intentionally do it.

No, I never made it clear that the Belgium'S shot the Archduke. Show me where I made that "VERY VERY CLEAR"

I will be waiting.

The alternative, btw, is that you meant A-H invaded Belgium because they did nothing about Serbians having shot the Archduke. Which is just as stupid a thing to say, perhaps even stupider.

No, I did not mean that. A-H never invaded Belgium. It was a mistake on my part. I did not intentionally mean to say that. I'm not stupid, I know that the A-H declared war on Serbia because they took no action against the assassination.

And no intelligent person can POSSIBLY mix up Serbia and Belgium. This is not like Serbia and Croatia you know. Belgium is a totally different country on the other side of Europe. But as it is, you did mix them up- both of the tarhget of A-H and as the killers of the Archduke, because the two are directly linked.

It was merely an accident. I sometimes mix up countries involved in the war. Don't try to judge people's intelligence. It was a mix up. Nothing more and nothing less, Ushgarak.

So again, check your facts, your history, your Geography,. Also be a man and admit when you got something totally wrong- don't try and pathetically wriggle out of it in a way so publically embarrassing. You don't 'sometimes' get them mixed at all. All that happened is that you saw me talk about Germany invading a country and assume I meant the country A-H invaded, because of your very basic level of knowledge in this area not being able to understand what I was saying. You mis-judged.

I love your little psychoanalysis. You post it like it's true or that it actually matters in this instance. I told you I sometimes get them mixed up. If you can't prove otherwise, that's the way it is. Don't tell me what I did. You don't know me.

Anyways, I'm no fool. I can man up and admit I made a mistake and got the two mixed, because I did.

What I said:

"From what I understand, the actual start of the war was when Austria-Hungary invaded Belgium because they did not take action to Franz Ferdinand's assassination in Sarajevo."

What I meant to say:

"From what I understand, the actual start of the war was when Austria-Hungary threatened Serbia because they did not take action to Franz Ferdinand's assassination in Sarajevo."

I understood what you said FULLY. I merely made a mistake of wording and got the two mixed up because you were mentioned Belgium'S.

Humans make mistakes, and I'm about to point out a few you've made when we move on.

So, let's return to the point here. Germany invaded Belgium. That was the crutch point that led to them being blamed for things,. Belgium was neutral, was no threat to Germany, never threatened Germany, and Germany had in fact signed a treaty saying they would guarantee Belgium's neutrality. Likewise, Britain and France were both pledged to defend Belgium if it was attacked. It was a totally innocent country that western Europe had pledged to defend. Germany completely ignored that because it did not suit their invasion plans. They went into it and that is the biggest factor that brought the UK into the war.

Upset by their Archdukes assassination, Austria Hungary declared war on Serbia on July 28, 1914. A day later, Russia conducted a mobilization against Austria Hungary in defence of Serbia, which then increased into a full fledged mobilization.

Germany then threatened to attack Russia on July 31, 1914, if they did not demobilize their units immediately. Germany then consulted France and asked them what they would do in a Russo-German War. France responded, and stated they would act in their own interests and mobilized their units.

On August 1, 1914, Germany declared war on Russia. Three days later, on August 3, 1914, Germany then declared war on France as well. Germany then invaded Belgium to cripple French units, violating Belgium’s official neutrality. This even then prompted Britain to declare war on Germany. That's what went down.

It's that simple. Basically, Germany was not the cause for this war. It was a chain of events from the point of the Archdukes assassination and saying that Germany caused WWI is not only a lack of knowledge REGARDING the first WW, it's ignorant.

If Germany had not done that it would have been different. But the invasion of Belgium turned the war from a fatal spat between powers into a scenario where Germany was absolutely now the bad guy.

It doesn't matter. They were blamed for CAUSING the war. They may have generated the most havoc, but they were NOT the cause. Anyone with a shred of comprehension for logic and awareness can see that Germany was clearly not the cause for this war even happening in the first place.

Study your history.

(Incidentally, in fact, Serbia agreed to nearly all of A-H's demands, but they invaded anyway)

No, no, no ... And you sit here and question my intelligence? Foolish hypocrisy, at it's finest.

A-H *NEVER* invaded Serbia. They had no time to act because the Russians had already fully mobilized. They only THREATENED TO INVADE Serbia.

Study your history.

I'm going to wait for you to man up and admit you were wrong, seeing as you love to tell people to do that. I'm expecting that you practice what you preach, yes?

Originally posted by Sorgo X
It doesn't matter. They were blamed for CAUSING the war. They may have generated the most havoc, but they were NOT the cause. Anyone with a shred of comprehension for logic and awareness can see that Germany was clearly not the cause for this war even happening in the first place.

Study your history.

Article 231 of the Treaty of Versailles assigned blame for the war to Germany; much of the rest of the Treaty set out the reparations that Germany would pay to the Allies.
Here is Article 231 of the Treaty of Versailles. Show me where is blames Germany for starting the war.
The Allied and Associated Governments affirm and Germany accepts the responsibility of Germany and her allies for causing all the loss and damage to which the Allied and Associated Governments and their nationals have been subjected as a consequence of the war imposed upon them by the aggression of Germany and her allies.

Originally posted by Strangelove
Here is Article 231 of the Treaty of Versailles. Show me where is blames Germany for starting the war.

Regarding the treaty:

"The victors from World War One were in no mood to be charitable to the defeated nations and Germany in particular was held responsible for the war and its consequences."

Lol, A grade nine history textbook sentence writes:

"Germany had to take responsibility for causing the war."

And, Term eleven of the Treaty:

"(11) an acceptance of Germany's guilt in causing the war; "

You've pretty much been shown.

Originally posted by Sorgo X
Regarding the treaty:

"The victors from World War One were in no mood to be charitable to the defeated nations and Germany in particular was held responsible for the war and its consequences."

Lol, A grade nine history textbook sentence writes:

"Germany had to take responsibility for causing the war."

And, Term eleven of the Treaty:

"(11) an acceptance of Germany's guilt in causing the war; "

You've pretty much been shown.

There was no Term 11. Nice quoting of Spartacus Educational, by the by. I am reading the text of the treaty itself. When you can 'show' me with the text of the treaty, which you can't, then I will consider myself 'shown'

The text of the Treaty clearly says:

The Allied and Associated Governments affirm and Germany accepts the responsibility of Germany and her allies for causing all the loss and damage to which the Allied and Associated Governments and their nationals have been subjected as a consequence of the war imposed upon them by the aggression of Germany and her allies.
causing all of the loss and damage. It did not say "Germany's actions caused this war", it said that the war was 'imposed upon [the Allied and Associated Governments] by the aggression of Germany and her allies."

Like history clearly shows, Germany did not start the war. It was the actions of an angry Serb assassinating Archduke Franz Ferdidnand. But like the Treaty states, Germany caused most of the problems of the war and was in fact the war's chief aggressor. Are you arguing with that?