A question about the EU

I'm a fan of the EU, but does anyone else feel that some of the materials therein belittle, contradict, or outright defy the importance and impact of the movies? In Dark Empire, Palpatine is resurrected and succeeds in seducing Luke to the dark side? Is this not a blatant contradiction of Luke's epic refusal of Sith training in Return of the Jedi? And even more importantly: Palpatine's reapperance completely smashes the weight of Anakin's ultimate sacrifice and the destruction of the Sith - which brings out another topic entirely: the EU authors refuse to let the Sith die. The fulfillment of the prophecy was supposed to enact the final destruction of the Sith, and yet we have Jacen, Lumiya, and Krayt all lining up. I can accept that they are - in the grand scheme of things - psuedoSith, but to these authors, they aren't.

Or the constant overpowering of characters? The Ancient Sith, for example. DE Sidious. NJO Luke. We've gone from lifting an X-wing and using Force lightning as the apex of Force power to moving moons, manipulating black holes, causing stars to go supernova, and time travel. It's thoroughly ridiculous. Timothy Zahn's constant fellating of Grand Admiral Thrawn [looking at art is the key to superior military tactics?]. Or BioWare's staff and Darth Revan? 'The heart of the Force', 'blinding power'? Get real.

If there is a Gary-Stu in the SW universe - it's Revan.

Unimaginably powerful Force user? Check.
Extremely proficient tactition? Check.
Charismatic and powerful leader? Check.
Skilled mechanic? Check.
Skilled pilot? Check.
Responsible for other character's achievements? Check.

Then we have the constant conflicts of the Jedi. At one time, Palpatine's destruction of the Jedi was unique in that it was the first and only time that they have been brought to extinction. KOTOR's changed that completely, as has the Legacy issue, which brings the Sith back, destroys the Jedi, and reinstates the Galactic Empire as the dominant force in the galaxy.

Does anyone else think similarly? That, even though the EU works are good and are entertaining [Hell, even PoD was an amazing book] they are all ultimately unoriginal and a mere rehash and attempt to overglorify their own interpretation of the PT and OT's storyline?

I completely agree with you, the NJO series are a disgrace to SW, but some material from the PT bothered me as well, like Ki-Adi Mundi having a wife and children, WTF, that is completely against the Code and he gets away with it. Also that Tusken wore trained as Jedi(i know they weren't real Tusken as species, but still, they wore Tuskin by mentality)

On one hand, I can't help but understand why they bring back the sith, they make for a good opponent in stories, and i'm sure the majority of the readers don't care about continuity the same way we do. And, afterall, these guys are trying to make a living, they have to earn money some way, and while I don't like that earning that bread entails the ruining of continuity, I can't really be angry with some of the writers for doing it.

Also, they did come up with an explanation for the Sith thing, for Sid's, as it was a clone, technically it never actually trained or studied to gain the power it had, and thus wasn't a sith (crap, I know, but that's what I read). For others like Lumiya and Krayt, they are sith in name only, all the teachings and knowledge of the old orders of sith are lost or hidden. The authors came out and said as much about both, Lumiya herself stating that the last true sith died with Palps, and Krayt was revealed as a pretender by the older sith themselves.

Originally posted by Gideon

Or the constant overpowering of characters? The Ancient Sith, for example. DE Sidious. NJO Luke. We've gone from lifting an X-wing and using Force lightning as the apex of Force power to moving moons, manipulating black holes, causing stars to go supernova, and time travel. It's thoroughly ridiculous. Timothy Zahn's constant fellating of Grand Admiral Thrawn [looking at art is the key to superior military tactics?]. Or BioWare's staff and Darth Revan? 'The heart of the Force', 'blinding power'? Get real.

In a universe with as many characters with so many powers, in the end there has to be the strongest good guy and the strongest bad guy, it might as well have been Luke and Sids, though I agree, some of what they do kinda cheapens Jedi, force users, as a whole. They started doing that back with the ancient sith, blowing up stars and all, since then they've seemingly attempted to top that with even more insane displays of force aptitude.

As far as Revan's concerned, it was an attempt to make the players feel like they're the big man on campus by having ever other character practically ejaculate at the sight of you, though even then the things Bioware and Obsidian wrote about him don't compare to the way his fans pump him up. I remember way back when there was a over a hundred posts dedicated to a topic of NJO Luke vs. Revan, with Revan taking the majority of the votes ("he has 'true light mastery"..."he likely knows all saber forms"..."his force storms eclipse Palpatine's)

Personally, my biggest gripe with the EU as a whole? that would be the introduction of the ancient sith. Before I knew about those comics (which was quite a while mind you) the old sith were always this dark faceless enemy with great power, the ones that are indirectly responsible for most of the horror the galaxy has had to face over the years. Then I actually read the comics only to find that these ruthless and powerful tyrants were...pink. And they got sad when one of their own (who was nothing more than a head) was assassinated. That totally blew it for me.

Originally posted by Gideon

Does anyone else think similarly? That, even though the EU works are good and are entertaining [Hell, even PoD was an amazing book] they are all ultimately unoriginal and a mere rehash and attempt to overglorify their own interpretation of the PT and OT's storyline?

the EU I think, brings more positives to the table then negatives. It's really breathed a whole new life into Star Wars by allowing you to see the huge universe that it encompasses. Yeah it might have hiccups here and there, but in the end I'm rather happy with the direction it's going in.

I have lots of gripe with the EU, unless it's genuinely well written material. It's the usual case for the New Jedi Order books, Dark Empire or a few of others, but some well written pieces like Timothy Zahn's efforts and the Exar Kun graphic novels shine.

In that case, as blasphemous as it sounds, I prefer EU material to the Prequel films, because frankly, looking at those films objectively, they aren't much.

Yeah, i agree perfectly to you. Sidious should never go back, Luke shoudl have already faced his dark side trial, etc.

About Revan, let's be real, they need a true character to use in such game. One thing is you playing with a character like Anakin, who you know already as a great jedi knight, other thing is to play with a completly unknown character. Besides, one of the better thigs of the game is this exactly point: you spend half of the game hearding that Revan is this and is that, and then YOU are Revan. Also, Revan is more or less the same kind of Exar kun characters, one powerful ancient jedi/sith.

But, to tell the true, is not Revan who bothers me more, but the Obsidian characters instead. Do you call Revan overpowered? Then what to say from Kreia, who kills 3 jedi masters with 1 force drain, Sion who can't be beat or Nihilus, who wipes out 1 planet with 1 attack...

The conflict with Revan is that he seemingly has no flaws to speak of. The entire game is filled to the brim with quotes and evidence from other characters that fellate him in an unprecedented way. Timothy Zahn performs a similar feat with Grand Admiral Thrawn, the difference being: Thrawn relies only on intellect and strategy to win, whereas Revan is a powerful Force user, skilled pilot, skilled mechanic, and a gifted combatant. Vader, Dooku, Maul, Kun, and even Palpatine - for all their power - had obvious flaws that were exposed through continuing narrative.

This is the singular reason why I don't like Revan. He's a Gary Stu, the Gary Stu of the Star Wars universe, and though it is plainly obvious (thank God) that he isn't the most powerful Force user we've seen, the idiots at BioWare and Obsidian have truly created a character that isn't human in the slightest. Which makes me curious as to why he has the massive fanbase that he does. Drew K's crediting Revan with "knowledge greater than the libraries in Korriban" despite having a brief sojourn to the dark side and crediting Bane's achievements directly to Revan is an example of how pathetic he truly is as a storyteller.

It's the usual case for the New Jedi Order books, Dark Empire or a few of others, but some well written pieces like Timothy Zahn's efforts and the Exar Kun graphic novels shine.

I'm of dual opinions about Zahn and KJA. On the one hand, they can churn out an undoubtably superior book - hence their nearly peerless reputation as sci-fi authors - but they are also the two biggest examples of bias and overpowering. Thrawn is among my favorite characters, but some of what he does is farfetched to say the least. As stated above, I am thankful that Zahn ultimately made him a non-Force user, which gives him a weakness. KJA helped to create the Ancient Sith, and how Exar Kun's weakened spirit could put a post-DE Luke into a coma. The Jedi Academy series is great, but only for storyline purposes.

I completely agree with you.

Gameplay decision.

It's more fun to play as someone so powerful.

The conflict with Revan is that he seemingly has no flaws to speak of. The entire game is filled to the brim with quotes and evidence from other characters that fellate him in an unprecedented way. Timothy Zahn performs a similar feat with Grand Admiral Thrawn, the difference being: Thrawn relies only on intellect and strategy to win, whereas Revan is a powerful Force user, skilled pilot, skilled mechanic, and a gifted combatant.

Anakin Skywalker?

Vader, Dooku, Maul, Kun, and even Palpatine - for all their power - had obvious flaws that were exposed through continuing narrative.

The thing is when you syphon through all the verbal fellating of Revan and you look at the character alone he does have two obvious flaws:

He arrogant: The masters looking in retrospect make note of him being brash and headstrong, which is for good reason as he has a whole flock of other Jedi who follow him around and practically worship him. Other then that a master (Kreia) who (if her talks with the Exile are any indication of how she spoke with him) wets herself at the sight of him. Other then that he thought he could single handidly save the galaxy.

and

He's power hungry: Again the masters note is insatiable appetite for knowledge, that and him going to Malachor, Korriban for Sith Knowledge, scouring the whole outer rim for the Star Forge. Also he leeched off the Jedi till he used up all the power/knowledge he felt they could potentially give him he then wanted out and wanted to move on to the next, as Kreia says.

He mainly has the same character flaws and much of the other Sith the only difference is he not trying to be a "Jedi". Other characters who don't really know him only perceive him to be the omnipotent epitome of the Jedi, because they see what they want to see, as Master Vandar said when he trained Revan all he saw was an egar prodigy who would one day be a champion for the Jedi, not a dangerously arrogant Jedi with a lust for power.

Ulic kept telling himself he was a Jedi, Kun was trying to delude himself that he was still a Jedi while on Korriban, as did Atris who claimed to be a Jed even though she surrounded herself with Sith holocrons even Anakin had moments of doubt before his ego took over, Dooku himself was almost turned back to the light by Yoda. Thats what makes him fairly unique as he wasn't delusional in that respect as most Jedi seem to be at the start of their falls. He recognizes what he is, does that make him a gary sue simply cause he doesn't follow the cookie cutter pattern of self denial, doubt and pity that all the others do?

This is the singular reason why I don't like Revan. He's a Gary Stu, the Gary Stu of the Star Wars universe,

No that belongs to Exar "no name padawan to most powerful being in the galaxy in a year" Kun. At least Revan for all his power has legitimate reasons as to why he's that strong, other then being a prodigy he's a full Knight, and was a full Sith Lord for 5 years. Unlike Kun who hadn't even completed his training as a Jedi.

Drew K's crediting Revan with "knowledge greater than the libraries in Korriban" despite having a brief sojourn to the dark side and crediting Bane's achievements directly to Revan is an example of how pathetic he truly is as a storyteller.

Not really, seeing as how the archives had been raided by the Jedi, random Dark Jedi and plunders many times over. And Revan who had the knowledge of Malachor and Korriban before it was plundered would logically have far more knowledge then a newly established Sith academy thats run by an bunch of relative weaklings.

And Revan isn't credited for Banes achievements, he is simply the spark that ignites Banes mind: Revan didn't tell him to do the rule of two, Revan didn't tell him to wipe out the current Sith. How can Drew be a pathetic storyteller when you just called his book and I quote: "Amazing".

I agree with you, ACStyles... in a way, falling to the Dark Side is a flaw, actually, so Revan has AT LEAST one flaw.

When I look at the EU i am sometimes split 2 ways. On one hand. All the books written before the PT was created and a lot of the ones that take place after the OT were very good with the exception of the New Jedi Order Series which I despise. On the other hand, a lot of the stuff that was supposed to happen before the PT is crap. I understand the majority of the jedi and sith were stronger then. But I think that stuff was best left unknown. They really should not have added extra stuff on to Exar Kun. He was best left with an unknown past as well.

As for EU being overpowered. Please keep in mind the Jedi in the time of the PT were probably at one of their weakest moments of all time. Epecially considering there were only really 4 powerful jedi. Yoda, Mace, Obi-wan and Anakin. The rest were definately a lot weaker. Probably weaker then a lot of the Jedi in the old days. Meanwhile the Sith became stronger thanks to the rule of 2. Personally though I think Palpatine was holding back when fighting Mace. He needed Anakin to make a choice to where there was no turning back. So he dragged the fight out until he sensed Anakin arrive. Though I didn't think he planned on Mace actually beating him. Though it worked out to his advantage thanks to Anakin literely disarming Mace. Also I am sure another reason Palpatine did not use as much power in the movies as he did in DE is because even though he had the clones, he wanted to avoid his original body from being destroyed. A fear of death kind of thing. His problem was he was just too powerful. His body could not even handle using all of it. Just look what using force lightning on Mace did to him. Though I think he put a lot of energy into that force lightning cause he realized there was a chance he could still lose.

Also some of you people that complain about it ruining the whole prophecy thing. Remember when DE and most of the books that take place after ROTJ were made, there was no Prophecy.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm a fan of the EU, but does anyone else feel that some of the materials therein belittle, contradict, or outright defy the importance and impact of the movies? In Dark Empire, Palpatine is resurrected and succeeds in seducing Luke to the dark side? Is this not a blatant contradiction of Luke's epic refusal of Sith training in Return of the Jedi? And even more importantly: Palpatine's reapperance completely smashes the weight of Anakin's ultimate sacrifice and the destruction of the Sith - which brings out another topic entirely: the EU authors refuse to let the Sith die. The fulfillment of the prophecy was supposed to enact the final destruction of the Sith, and yet we have Jacen, Lumiya, and Krayt all lining up. I can accept that they are - in the grand scheme of things - psuedoSith, but to these authors, they aren't.

Or the constant overpowering of characters? The Ancient Sith, for example. DE Sidious. NJO Luke. We've gone from lifting an X-wing and using Force lightning as the apex of Force power to moving moons, manipulating black holes, causing stars to go supernova, and time travel. It's thoroughly ridiculous. Timothy Zahn's constant fellating of Grand Admiral Thrawn [looking at art is the key to superior military tactics?]. Or BioWare's staff and Darth Revan? 'The heart of the Force', 'blinding power'? Get real.

If there is a Gary-Stu in the SW universe - it's Revan.

Unimaginably powerful Force user? Check.
Extremely proficient tactition? Check.
Charismatic and powerful leader? Check.
Skilled mechanic? Check.
Skilled pilot? Check.
Responsible for other character's achievements? Check.

Then we have the constant conflicts of the Jedi. At one time, Palpatine's destruction of the Jedi was unique in that it was the first and only time that they have been brought to extinction. KOTOR's changed that completely, as has the Legacy issue, which brings the Sith back, destroys the Jedi, and reinstates the Galactic Empire as the dominant force in the galaxy.

Does anyone else think similarly? That, even though the EU works are good and are entertaining [Hell, even PoD was an amazing book] they are all ultimately unoriginal and a mere rehash and attempt to overglorify their own interpretation of the PT and OT's storyline?

I think I might know why so many people love revan its because they are revan

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
As for EU being overpowered. Please keep in mind the Jedi in the time of the PT were probably at one of their weakest moments of all time. Epecially considering there were only really 4 powerful jedi. Yoda, Mace, Obi-wan and Anakin. The rest were definately a lot weaker. Probably weaker then a lot of the Jedi in the old days.

THe PT was seen as the "Golden Age" of the Jedi, I'm pretty sure. Not too mention that the average PT jedi > Ancient Jedi, at least in my opinion.