Originally posted by Lightsnake
And your contributions to this have been 'well,m they'd win.'Nothing more. If you can't bother to give reasonings, why should I?
Now, what has Bane shown that Palpaitne can't do better? Palpatine has
A. All of Bane's knowledge
B. has access to sources that'd make Bane tremble (Hello there, Ancient Sith spirits!)
C. More Sith holocrons of earlier eras that Bane could ever possibly have found
D. Directly stated to be the most powerful Sith of Bane's entire order. Which, last time I checked, includes Bane himself.Oh, and this isn't even referencing DE Palpatine, who'd finish this fight rather quick.
Speed advantages? Power advantages? Now, without Nihilus's drain, what does he have going for himself?
For all of Palpatine's knowledge and power he never did anything as impressive as Bane by ROTS. Sidious certainly became the most powerful of Bane's Order, any Order for that matter, but I don't think that he was such when he fought Yoda. I really can't see Luke or Yoda being as strong as Nihilus AND Bane. Individually would be a different story, but against the pair, neither Luke or Yoda would win.
golly gee whiz! I suppose if we discount creating storms on several planets, throwing the Force out of balance and clouding the minds of the entire Jedi Order....nope, noooooothing impressive....oh, we can neglect defeating the strongest Jedi of all time and instantly dispatching three of the greatest Swordsmen the Jedi Order had ever known.
Luke would slaughter both of these two in seconds, thanks. Anything they've done that compare to him? At all?
Guess what, Glentract? What you THINK has absolutely no bearing on this. It's stated directly Palpatine was the only one who succeeded in fully mastering the Dark Side, the Most Powerful Sith in History, Greatest master of evil to EVER use Sith power...all in the context of By ROTS
I don't care what you think. The canon overrules you.
Against Luke, btw, they're both slaughtered
I don't know where you get these ridiculous fantasies that Luke would pwn a guy who controls the minds of thousands of people at all times while holding together the strongest ship in the known galaxy at that time and when doing all that it took the Jedi Exile, Visas, and Mandalore (aka perhaps the most powerful non-Force User alive and possibly ever to have lived) to kill him when he was in a weakened state (he was desperate to find Jedi to feed on thus walked into a potential trap), plus another guy that apparently moved a moon. You're ridiculous.
But even though I don't want to, I'll try to be a reasonable guy. If you really want to get into this again, make a thread in the literature forum with every bit of evidence for ROTS Sidious' power being greater than the likes of Bane and Nihilus that you can muster. Give feats, quotes, everything you want. The next time I get on and it's there I'll take a look at it and make a counter-argument to everything you say. Consider it a challenge if you like.
Yet Luke defeated a guy channeling the power of millions at a time. Fantasy? Please.
Btw, since I already countered this Mandalore bullshit, I want to hear how he's the strongest Mandalorian of all time,when we've seen Jango and Boba do things that pwn his ass.
OH, and Bane moved a moon? Proof please. OH, I'm sorr.y..you have anything but a retconned story when we know from later on that Dxun and Onderon are naturally close together and dozens of other details of BOTS were rendered invalid? Right.
And why should I have to make a thread with ROTs Sidious's feats? Direct quote for you: "Most powerful Sith in history." In reference to him in rOTs when he fought Yoda. Gotta love canon, eh?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yet Luke defeated a guy channeling the power of millions at a time. Fantasy? Please.
Just so you know, there is no reason to believe that Raynar was channeling the power of those people with anywhere near optimal efficiency. It's entirely possible that he was only getting a tenth of a percent of each person's energy. And the none of the Killicks appear to have had much Force Potential.
BTW, contrary to what the Matrix imples, the energy generated by one being's body is actually very little.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Btw, since I already countered this Mandalore bullshit, I want to hear how he's the strongest Mandalorian of all time,when we've seen Jango and Boba do things that pwn his ass.
When exactly did you counter it? All Jango ever did was call himself Mandalore when really there weren't any Mandalorians. Even during Boba's time the population of the Mandalorians never rose above 5 million I believe. When Canderous was trained and for most of his life they must have numbered in the billions to have effectively waged a war against the Republic.
Does the great Lightsnake care to enlighten us with some of the things Jango and Boba did that pwn Caderious' ass?
Side note: On the population of the Mandalorian's in Boba's time I'm not entirely sure. My copy of Sacrifice is in my brother's car and he'll be at work for a few more hours, so I can check later, but if someone else has a copy on hand that could give a more exact number that'd be great.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
OH, and Bane moved a moon? Proof please. OH, I'm sorr.y..you have anything but a retconned story when we know from later on that Dxun and Onderon are naturally close together and dozens of other details of BOTS were rendered invalid? Right.
To my knowledge neither story was ever given canon over the other. It's equally possible that BOTS retcons the other stories.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And why should I have to make a thread with ROTs Sidious's feats? Direct quote for you: "Most powerful Sith in history." In reference to him in rOTs when he fought Yoda. Gotta love canon, eh?
You should make the thread because I'm pretty certain Sidious doesn't have many feats and you're only hiding behind your flawed interpretation of "canon." What's the source of this quote?
Glentract, Lightsnake is 100% correct, although he exaggerates about the jedi who took on Sidious in the chamber. They were B level Jedi. However if you look at all the sources NOT in the movies, it is clear that Sidious is above and beyond every sith, from devastating force techniques, to sith alchemy, to creating his own techniques. He WAS the perfect sith.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Glentract, Lightsnake is 100% correct, although he exaggerates about the jedi who took on Sidious in the chamber. They were B level Jedi. However if you look at all the sources NOT in the movies, it is clear that Sidious is above and beyond every sith, from devastating force techniques, to sith alchemy, to creating his own techniques. He WAS the perfect sith.
That's what I've been saying for months now. Sidious was the best Sith to have ever lived, but it wasn't until long after ROTS that he became that.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Glentract, Lightsnake is 100% correct, although he exaggerates about the jedi who took on Sidious in the chamber. They were B level Jedi. However if you look at all the sources NOT in the movies, it is clear that Sidious is above and beyond every sith, from devastating force techniques, to sith alchemy, to creating his own techniques. He WAS the perfect sith.
All correct. Plus, there are what, three of four sources that state it outright?
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Just so you know, there is no reason to believe that Raynar was channeling the power of those people with anywhere near optimal efficiency. It's entirely possible that he was only getting a tenth of a percent of each person's energy. And the none of the Killicks appear to have had much Force Potential.
BTW, contrary to what the Matrix imples, the energy generated by one being's body is actually very little.
When exactly did you counter it? All Jango ever did was call himself Mandalore when really there weren't any Mandalorians. Even during Boba's time the population of the Mandalorians never rose above 5 million I believe. When Canderous was trained and for most of his life they must have numbered in the billions to have effectively waged a war against the Republic.
Does the great Lightsnake care to enlighten us with some of the things Jango and Boba did that pwn Caderious' ass?[.Quote]
Jango: Defeats a Krayt Dragon on his own, defeats Komari Vosa, Montross, destroys the entire Death Watch on his own...
Boba Fett: Able to fight Vader, kills more than a few Jedi, survives and destroys the Sarlaac, destroys an entire imperial garrison on his own...[Quote]
To my knowledge neither story was ever given canon over the other. It's equally possible that BOTS retcons the other stories.
You should make the thread because I'm pretty certain Sidious doesn't have many feats and you're only hiding behind your flawed interpretation of "canon." What's the source of this quote?
And not many feats?
1. Creates storms in the force on numerous worlds
2. Bends the spirits of the Ancients to his will
3. Has the Ancients' spirits, plus numerous holocrons, Bane's, Nihilus's, Andeddu's and numerous others, to work with
4. slaughters three of the ebst Jedi swordsmen ever in moments
5. Clouds the minds of the entire Jedi Order
Originally posted by Lightsnake
I suppose this is how we default when we're called on things.
Just like how there's no reason to believe Nihilus was controlling the minds of his crew, given Tobin
Called on things?
There's a bit of a difference between controlling those on you're ship and those hundreds of thousands of miles away. I believe the people on the bridge had something along the lines of "mindless slaves" above their heads when you looked at them.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Btw, this is SW.
That's why it was a BTW comment. Just wanted to make sure you didn't think the energy that even a billion bodies creates is all that significant when talking about starships and such.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Weren't any Mandos? Tell it to Karen Traviss! There were about five planets' worth of Mandos.
When Canderous personally defeats Dooku's dark prodigy on his own, get back to me.
There's nothing going for Canderous, sorry
How about when Jango was Mandalore? Was there planets worth after the Battle of Galidraan? Nope, not even close.
Canderous aided in killing Nihilus plus a huge number of Sith that were felled during the events of KOTOR 1 and 2. So there's actually a lot going for Canderous, and I'm not sorry.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except it doesn't, considering the more recent ones overrule the older ones.
Who decided this? You?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
PoD effectively overwrites BOTS. And Bane's fallible thoughts don't overwrite the direct sources
I must have missed something. Why are you talking about Bane's thoughts?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Three sources:
Dark Side Sourcebook
NEC
Heritage of the Sith
What's flawed about this? "Yoda was unable to defeat the most powerful Sith in History?"
A reference to ROTS....HUH!
Alright, I just looked up the quote. When it says power it appears to be defined as "the possession of control or command over others; authority; ascendancy" (dictionary.com). This is 100% Palpatine was far and away the most powerful person ever to have lived when this definition is true and it makes the quote fit with the rest of the SW universe. The above stated definition is the most logical one.
Basically, your omega-quote for Palpatine's supposed power is flawed.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And not many feats?
1. Creates storms in the force on numerous worlds
2. Bends the spirits of the Ancients to his will
3. Has the Ancients' spirits, plus numerous holocrons, Bane's, Nihilus's, Andeddu's and numerous others, to work with
4. slaughters three of the ebst Jedi swordsmen ever in moments
5. Clouds the minds of the entire Jedi Order
1. No until long after ROTS, which is the time period being discussed.
2. Prove that he did this as of ROTS.
3. He wouldn't have had the ability to utilize the majority of this until far later in his life. Most likely he never got through the majority of the knowledge he possed due to the sheer volume of it. Exar, who had a much smaller knowledge base to work with stated that he had more then he could ever use.
4. Cool. In all of two seconds Nihilus owned a woman who herself killed three Jedi who may have been more powerful than the ones Sidious killed in even less time than Sidious accomplished the feat you mentioned. Can you say "outdone?"
5. Won't help him at all in a fight.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Called on things?There's a bit of a difference between controlling those on you're ship and those hundreds of thousands of miles away. I believe the people on the bridge had something along the lines of "mindless slaves" above their heads when you looked at them.
and didn't Palpatine actively cloud the minds of thousands of Force Users anyways?
That's why it was a BTW comment. Just wanted to make sure you didn't think the energy that even a billion bodies creates is all that significant when talking about starships and such.
Force potential and power isn't what I'd call simple energy
How about when Jango was Mandalore? Was there planets worth after the Battle of Galidraan? Nope, not even close.
Canderous aided in killing Nihilus plus a huge number of Sith that were felled during the events of KOTOR 1 and 2. So there's actually a lot going for Canderous, and I'm not sorry.
Who decided this? You?
I must have missed something. Why are you talking about Bane's thoughts?
Alright, I just looked up the quote. When it says power it appears to be defined as "the possession of control or command over others; authority; ascendancy" (dictionary.com). This is 100% Palpatine was far and away the most powerful person ever to have lived when this definition is true and it makes the quote fit with the rest of the SW universe. The above stated definition is the most logical one.
Basically, your omega-quote for Palpatine's supposed power is flawed.
1. No until long after ROTS, which is the time period being discussed.
2. Prove that he did this as of ROTS.
3. He wouldn't have had the ability to utilize the majority of this until far later in his life. Most likely he never got through the majority of the knowledge he possed due to the sheer volume of it. Exar, who had a much smaller knowledge base to work with stated that he had more then he could ever use.
How long did it take Bane to learn all of Revan's Dark Side knowledge? A few weeks?
4. Cool. In all of two seconds Nihilus owned a woman who herself killed three Jedi who may have been more powerful than the ones Sidious killed in even less time than Sidious accomplished the feat you mentioned. Can you say "outdone?"
5. Won't help him at all in a fight.
Wowee! Nihilus double teamed his inferior, caught her off guard and won the fight! I'm in AWE!
Love all your PROOF, Glentract. Love how your denial extends to trying to worm out of canon quotes, too
Originally posted by Lightsnake
How long did it take Bane to learn all of Revan's Dark Side knowledge? A few weeks?
Bane indeed learned lots of useful and important things from Revan's holocron but still he was not powerful enough to control all the techniques that Revan knew. Bane himself admitted that Revan knew some techniques that were too dangerous to try. This means that it was not possible for Bane to utilize all of Revan's knowledge, thus making some of the knowledge useless for him.
So think befere you spout something.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, right...what powers did Zez, Kavar and Vrook show? Besides living in an inferior time, having less credentials and having nothing going for them at all...
Kavar was specially the battle-master of KOTOR period. He was among the greatest swordsmen of his age.
And those 3 Jedi Masters were about to harm Exile by removing her connection to the Force. Traya realized this and confronted them.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Wowee! Nihilus double teamed his inferior, caught her off guard and won the fight! I'm in AWE!
But Nihilus send her flying in to a wall with a flick of his hand. And Traya failed to stop his attack. Now Traya is among the most powerful Sith of her age and she is the final boss in the KOTOR II. Still Nihilus dominated her with a flick of his hand.
Do not forget that Nihilus is among the most powerful Sith Lords in SW history.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And how much of Revan's knowledge did Bane has utilized?Bane indeed learned lots of useful and important things from Revan's holocron but still he was not powerful enough to control all the techniques that Revan knew. Bane himself admitted that Revan knew some techniques that were too dangerous to try. This means that it was not possible for Bane to utilize all of Revan's knowledge, thus making some of the knowledge useless for him.
So think befere you spout something.
Was it really necessary for them to demonstrate their powers? The problem is that we seldom see them in the fights but this does not changes the fact that those Jedi Masters were very experienced and battle-hardened.
Kavar was specially the battle-master of KOTOR period. He was among the greatest swordsmen of his age.
And those 3 Jedi Masters were about to harm Exile by removing her connection to the Force. Traya realized this and confronted them.
You are actually ignorant about that clash. Traya knew that Nihilus was also there and she was ready to fight.
But Nihilus send her flying in to a wall with a flick of his hand. And Traya failed to stop his attack. Now Traya is among the most powerful Sith of her age and she is the final boss in the KOTOR II. Still Nihilus dominated her with a flick of his hand.Do not forget that Nihilus is among the most powerful Sith Lords in SW history.
And moreover, Traya is surprised...otherwise she wouldn't be sitting there, waiting
Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's a good thing Palpatine is stronger than Bane, then. I don't see Bane able to force the spirits of Ancient Sith to do what he wants.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Regardless: Bane had all of Revan's Dark Side knowledge and that was passed down, along with much more Palpatine knew
Do you have any proof for this? Bane destroyed Revan's holocron and he never tried to use those techniques that were too dangerous for him to try. So how would he be able to teach those techniques to his apprentice?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
If you're trying to prove they were so damn powerful, yes. It was necessary
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Kit, Agen and Saesee were among the best swordsmen of any age
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which isn't much a feat, anyways. They were going to cut her off from the Force, which wasn't a huge, secret technique back then
Originally posted by Lightsnake
so, why was she surprised in her chamber?
She knew that Nihilus was there and hence she said the line "There are some techniques in the Force that cannot be defended against" and Nihilus indeed knew some of the such techniques.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
I don't. Don't forget Palpatine's the most powerful Sith Lord in SW history.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And moreover, Traya is surprised...otherwise she wouldn't be sitting there, waiting
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I agree.Really?
Do you have any proof for this? Bane destroyed Revan's holocron and he never tried to use those techniques that were too dangerous for him to try. So how would he be able to teach those techniques to his apprentice?
I only stated that they were powerful because of some obvious reasons that I have mentioned before. And Kavar was specially an accomplished warrior.
Really? Were they battle-masters of PT period?
It is a feat because to harm Exile, you will need considerable power to pull off such a move.
Surprised by what? Can you show me a PIC?She knew that Nihilus was there and hence she said the line "There are some techniques in the Force that cannot be defended against" and Nihilus indeed knew some of the such techniques.
I know but that is because of his incredible diisplay of power in DE.
Traya said that "there were some disagreements" and she was talking about her disagreements with her [b]two apprentices. [/B]
She sees Nihilus and Sion approach and there's not really much talking...
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Someone show me where the B level jedi that faced Sidious were described as some of the best swordsmen ever.
"Now Obi-Wan did face him. 'Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee -- four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced'[...]" (Revenge of the Sith, Ch. 19)
Right there.