"The Rip Off of all debates"

Olympian is finally back affter a time of nerdy exams and stressful final works. This goes mostly to Emp since he was the one that asked these kind of questions more or less (at least that i recall) but its cleary open to everyone. Why isent Ryo of AOF fame a rip-off? I will demostrate the why`s and wherebouts with evidence to demostrate why i take such stance. Ladies and Gents pickup a seat and let`s begin:

"So, were the creators of both games, the same or not"?

Yes as followed:

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/6199/devolopmentteamon2.jpg

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/6199/devolopmentteamon2.jpg

Also presented are links tied with the WIKI articles that show the case.

"Did they occupied the same place in developing the AOF series as they did in SF or they just "worked there"?

Same place occupied as in SF and other franchises (both in Capcom and SNK). They are never refered as just "hired work".

"Ok, but did they drew both or either characters?"

As far as actual artwork for the game (the proffesional art that helps sell the whole package) no. That was the well known Shinkiro who also worked in the series of FF and KOF as well as Capcom currently. More info:

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6514/aofshinkiroie0.jpg

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6795/shinkiro01en2.jpg

Again, see links. Now, lets talk about this issue. While Shinkiro was the hired illustrateur for the release of the game (read at least for sure the first two games) he isent credited anywhere as being the creator of the characters he drew in the refered games. This makes me belive he mainly did art robot (the term used for a hired illustrateur that draws what the writer/creator wants without having a direct play in the creative process of the whole thing). There is also other reason that makes me have that belif wich its the existance of this game:

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/7152/beforesfandaoftherewashzq7.jpg

A game that was released before SF by the same creators that has...a heroic main duo called..Ryu and Ko. Now, unless someone is on the verge of beliving in huge coincidences, there is actually none. The same creative minds come up with three different beat `em ups, set on three different franchises and universes (even tho Avengers was released by Capcom, its not set on SF universe) and whose main duo is composed of friendly rivals, whose names of the main hero are close players of each other if not dowrigth equal.

http://ww2.capcom.com/cccremixed/avengers.html

http://www.system16.com/cybercade/games/avengers.html

http://www.mameworld.net/maws/romset/avengers

Obviously and it would be stupid not to do it, credit must be given to the hired artists. They are the ones that molded the characters in theyr style to be sold and reckgonized to the overall public. But this case simply isent the same as say of Falcoon, who besides doing the official 2D art for the game renderes in order to recreate the characters in 3D form, also had a hand in devoloping the KOF MI series, the new characters themselves and producing the said games.

As far as characters go, the similarities are obviously pan out. Not that the SF Ryu is blatantly original on itself, after all a karate gi cannot be copyrigth as they exist in real life, but they took the ideia and shaped it and made it famous as far as videogames figthers go, especially at the time. This is no different (or alot different) than Kirby co creating the F4 only to go to DC comics to create the Challengers of the Unknown, based on a pre existence concept he helped shaped form.

Wich leads to the other main reason:

"If they all look alike, how is Ryo not a Rip-Off?!"

Defination and meaning of ripping off:

http://www.answers.com/topic/rip-off-idiom

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rip+off

http://www.underconsideration.com/speakup/archives/003405.html

You noticed a key element that is regarded with the defination of ripping off that we are discussing about? The element of stealing someone else`s work/concept/ideias and pass it as our own, without even giving the credit to the latter. Simply stealing.

I dont consider Ryo a rip off of character, when it was brough up by the same creators, using an already stabilized figthing game concept, done already in previous games by the very same. Not unless of course you also consider the SF Ryu merey a rip off, of the Avengers Ryu. This also leads us to another interesting point: What is the example then of a character "steal"?

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/3613/tungxb0.jpg

Tung Rue is probably one. A rip off character as previously seen, its one that is shaped by a previous existing standart that "this" creator never had a part in. The character is an exact Muthen Roshi look alike, serves the same part as Roshi but in the negative side, it doesnt have the enough differences to set him apart from his more original look alike. And yet, some here cleary consider Tung...a homage. That being said, where is the line then between a homage and a steal, when Ryo for example have more to differ himself in respect with his SF counterpart than Tung ever did with his?

With this over now, ill just ask that this topic gets to be discussed here, in order to not have it spread in countless threads all over the place.

Ok...I read that...twice...and really don't see the point in it.

Ryo is still a C*cks*cker to me

Rip off for life i even hate the name RYO <<RYU

good post sensei.

ahahaha 😆 😂 😖mart:

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Ok...I read that...twice...and really don't see the point in it.

And here`s why.

Originally posted by shin_remy
Ryo is still a C*cks*cker to me

Stay on topic Shin. I dont want to know who sucks for you or not.

Originally posted by shin_remy
Rip off for life i even hate the name RYO <<RYU

Avengers RYU >>> SF Ryu.

Ryo`s name at least its sligthy different and its actually a japaneze name on itself, apart from Ryu. Taking the defination of ripping off in account, id like to see the evidence for your logic.

Originally posted by Sado22
good post sensei.

Thanks, how many of the stuff here you wer aware of? Any surprise?

😆 This again? Hopefully this will remain peaceful this time. I really don't remember anybody asking you who created what games.(You could always quote them) The main question was "Were Ryu & Ryo created by the same person(s)?" Although your posts have been quite educational, it's a question you've admitted you haven't answered yet. I'm of course going to have to call Ryo a ripoff until the question is answered. These are fictional characters though so it shouldn't offend anyone.

As far as Avengers Ryu, besides name, how many things do he and SF Ryu have in common? They are however both from Capcom so SF Ryu can't be a ripoff. Capcom owns both.

You asked me before why Capcom didn't sue. I don't know for sure since I don't work for them. My guess is it's for the same reason you said DC hasn't sued publishers of any of the Supes-like characters besides Capt.Marvel/Shazaam. Unlike the others, Shazaam became more popular/profitable than Supes quite quickly(Supes sux). He was a threat. Ryo never has been more popular/profitable than Ryu nor will he ever be. He's not a threat. I don't think he's even part of the SNK big 4(Kyo,Iori,Terry,K'😉. I'm guessing the creation of Dan was punishment enough.

So, what would the point of a character name ryu in the avengers prove that ryu copied off him?

Good question.

Originally posted by shin_remy
Ryo is still a C*cks*cker to me

Rip off for life i even hate the name RYO <<RYU

My personal reasons for liking Ryo above Ryu is
- his physical moveset actually looks like some form of martial art..
- the game he originated from has one of the most interesting fighting systems (spirit bars to discourage special move spam, punchable fireballs, and the game that started supermoves?.. yes plz..)

movesets, personal feelings, and company fun-poking aside.. both characters look like what they are supposed to be, and 'that's whats important (to me at least)

Ryu - self-reliant practitioner of a scarce style of karate, living to his own accord (as depicted through the frayed and aged uniform). and probably only has 1 or 2 uniforms to his name.. and is very serious (aside from a few ken induced noogies) about ascending in his art form

Ryo - runs his own dojo and is apparently well experienced and funded (as shown from his clean uniforms and sparring gear (sweat absorbing undershirt and in-step guards)).. and his perky (if not cocky) attitude

both characters have evolved much since their first incarnation, and I think as far as character designers go.. that should be a career goal

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN

- the game he originated from has one of the most interesting fighting systems (spirit bars to discourage special move spam, punchable fireballs, and the game that started supermoves?.. yes plz..)

Special move spam, you do realize how much mind games are associated with special moves?

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
Special move spam, you do realize how much mind games are associated with special moves?

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
yes but having constant access to possibly high damage special moves winds up creating tiers..

Every game has Tiers, and it's not always because a special move. Tiers determine which character is easier to win with. Not all fighters are created equal.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN

I enjoy having that constant access myself... but throwing 30 fireballs and not having it impact your character just makes me think of other possibilities that the fighting game genre could benefit from..

The purpose for projectiles is to create a ranged game, eliminating their priority would ruin mind games like it did for Third Strike.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN

you could turn the spirit bar into a mind game as well, via having to rethink before you toss a fireball, or a special technique

That's not what I mean by mind game, and sure you could add a new dynamic, but you would ruin several others.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
My personal reasons for liking Ryo above Ryu is
- his physical moveset actually looks like some form of martial art..

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
Every game has Tiers, and it's not always because a special move. Tiers determine which character is easier to win with. Not all fighters are created equal.

I thought tiers are created because the game wasn't balanced properly
surely its the developers intention to make the game well balanced and not have 'preferred characters' eh?

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
The purpose for projectiles is to create a ranged game, eliminating their priority would ruin mind games like it did for Third Strike.

I think to solve that issue they could have made fireballs non-parryable, or consume super bar energy for parrying them

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
That's not what I mean by mind game, and sure you could add a new dynamic, but you would ruin several others.

I think the reason why we even have debates about this kind of subject is because the developers never take these unconventional dynamics, put em to the test and create a new series

I mean how many 2d fighters have we played that doesn't involve 'fireball' and 'uppercut' 😬 tried and true is great, but how will we ever know 'what could have been' when these people don't even attempt something different?

what are some of the most non-conventional fighters some of you guys have played? fighters that really deviated from the path of what you'd expect from the genre..

Originally posted by brainchild81
😄 SaTs is back in Game Vs. Awesome!!!! Ryu's doesn't look like some form of MA to you?

perhaps there are karate styles I'm not familiar with.. but most that I've seen go for the one-hit takedown (which ryo pays homage to with his super "Ichi-geki Hissatsu!"😉.. ryu also fits the bill because he's the 1 hit knockdown character compared to ken's multi-hit speed hits

but the reasoning behind my "ryo's physical hits look more MA to me" statement are his animations ...he does real karate blocks, strikes and counters... what I see on ryu's side are strikes taken from multiple arts.. but hey thats creative freedom
not a big deal really but thats just something that stuck out for me

hot damn KoF has some shitty sprites ... I dont know how he animates in battle coliseum.. but they probably took some crap kof sprite and palette swapped it.. -_-

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
I thought tiers are created because the game wasn't balanced properly
surely its the developers intention to make the game well balanced and not have 'preferred characters' eh?

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN

I think to solve that issue they could have made fireballs non-parryable, or consume super bar energy for parrying them

Or something around the likes of that, alot of people including myself hate parries.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN

I think the reason why we even have debates about this kind of subject is because the developers never take these unconventional dynamics, put em to the test and create a new series

There's only so much one can do in a 2-D medium. Honestly, most of the best Ideas have been implemented by Classic SNK, Capcom, and Konami. Fighters no a days mimic Guilty Gear or Marvel, which is why I play 2-D fighters now.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN

I mean how many 2d fighters have we played that doesn't involve 'fireball' and 'uppercut' 😬 tried and true is great, but how will we ever know 'what could have been' when these people don't even attempt something different?

The Spirit Meter was a Bad approach to a good idea same with the parry. Honstly, there really isn't a need to create an implememt to punish a range game. That's up to the players

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN

what are some of the most non-conventional fighters some of you guys have played? fighters that really deviated from the path of what you'd expect from the genre..

I'll play just about any fighter, but there are only a few I take seriously as a competitive game.

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
The Spirit Meter was a Bad approach to a good idea same with the parry. Honstly, there really isn't a need to create an implememt to punish a range game. That's up to the players

Heh.. I wasn't singling out ranged attacks.. stuff like countering a jumping opponent with a dragon punch being a 100% constant success.. it gets annoying.. thanks to parry you can jump at a shoto / guile-type.. (unless there was a way to jump at them previously that I didnt know about)... I also liked having hurricane kick advance over the fireball

didnt timestop also punish fireball throwing?... i.e. in capcom vs snk 2... if someone throws a fireball I wait til it almost touches me then I go for the super-slide right through it

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
Heh.. I wasn't singling out ranged attacks.. stuff like countering a jumping opponent with a dragon punch being a 100% constant success.. it gets annoying..

You can easily beat those with Safe Jumping, there not 100% successful.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN

didnt timestop also punish fireball throwing?... i.e. in capcom vs snk 2... if someone throws a fireball I wait til it almost touches me then I go for the super-slide right through it

Yeah, but an easier way is utilising Invincible Frames.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
hot damn KoF has some shitty sprites ... I dont know how he animates in battle coliseum.. but they probably took some crap kof sprite and palette swapped it.. -_-

Originally posted by brainchild81
I really don't remember anybody asking you who created what games.

Emp did. And even if he didnt it matters to the topic at hand.

Originally posted by brainchild81
(You could always quote them) The main question was "Were Ryu & Ryo created by the same person(s)?"Although your posts have been quite educational, it's a question you've admitted you haven't answered yet..

There is no way that by coincidence 3 main stars of 3 different games by the same creators just happen to be "alike". You can refute however, with evidence of your own.

Originally posted by brainchild81
I'm of course going to have to call Ryo a ripoff until the question is answered. These are fictional characters though so it shouldn't offend anyone..

Its obviously nothing offensive, its about getting things rigth. We know what ripping off means and thats a basic steal. And this aint it.

Originally posted by brainchild81
As far as Avengers Ryu, besides the name, how many things do he and SF Ryu have in common? They are however both from Capcom so SF Ryu can't be a ripoff. Capcom owns both.

Brain, i didnt said Ryu was a rip off. That was sarcasm towards Shin, because of the names. If the name its what bothers him then i *guess* Sf Ryu is cleary a rip off. All three share the same basic concept with differences that set them to build theyr own character.

Originally posted by brainchild81
You asked me before why Capcom didn't sue. I don't know for sure since I don't work for them. My guess is it's for the same reason you said DC hasn't sued publishers of any of the Supes-like characters besides Capt.Marvel/Shazaam. Unlike the others, Shazaam became more popular/profitable than Supes quite quickly(Supes sux). He was a threat. Ryo never has been more popular/profitable than Ryu nor will he ever be. He's not a threat. I don't think he's even part of the SNK big 4(Kyo,Iori,Terry,K'😉. I'm guessing the creation of Dan was punishment enough.

Money does have weigth and Ryo sure isent as profitable as Ryu, but lets keep in mind that DC lost that sue since they lacked the basis to label someone a steaf when theyr main concern was simply a popularity issue. Both characters have more than enough differences among themselves (especially in the backgrounds) for it to be an issue *despite* the creators not being the same! Hey, if that would be the case, then Superman itself would qualify for it.

Capcom most probably lacked the basis for it and went for the character mocking angle, wich his embraced by either company anyway. Wich is good ridance as far as im concerned.

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
So, what would the point of a character name ryu in the avengers prove that ryu copied off him?

Shin is the one that gave the "if its the same name its gotta be a rip off" response. Altho i hardly belive he was being that serious.

As answered above, i dont consider Ryu what he isent.