Astral Plane in the MU

How does the astral plane relate to the physical plane in the MU? It seems all powerful psionics can alter the astral plane, but not every one that can astral project is a powerful psionic. It also seems all powerful psionics can affect people from the astral plane. Therefore being able to alter the astral plane = powerful psionic = affect physical reality from the astral plane.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_King#Powers_and_Abilities

The Shadow King is a powerful telepath, (he was said to be second only to Professor X, but this has probably changed since other telepaths have since surfaced); he can control the astral plane (which only the most powerful telepaths can do); as well as possess minds while on the astral plane. He has demonstrated the ability to live beyond the death of his physical body.

manipulating the physical universe from the astral plane was something nobody really did until nate grey came along. first, he literally pulled xavier's astral form into the physical plane, giving it form and substance. then, he started creating physical constructs like body armor out of energy from the astral plane. i believe the "source material" for madelyne pryor in the x-man series was nate's memories + dormant psychic residue + astral energy. [there is one instance from much earlier in x-history where the shadow king's host body was grievously wounded, but appeared in a panel with no physical detriment shortly thereafter. the two theories were a] he was somehow using astral energy to replicate the form and function of organic matter, or b] artist error. there was no confirmation.] there really are not a lot of people that have accomplished those types of feats.

non-telepaths, or at least mutants who've otherwise shown no outright telepathic ability, have been able to astral project; and various heroes and mutants have been taken to the astral plane along with a telepath. "trance," i believe her name is, from the new x-men series can astral project. and the man "kim" from the madrox limited series was not only capable of astral projection to overcome his paralysis, but his astral form could also interact with the physical plane in a very destructive fashion.

Originally posted by Disappear
manipulating the physical universe from the astral plane was something nobody really did until nate grey came along. first, he literally pulled xavier's astral form into the physical plane, giving it form and substance. then, he started creating physical constructs like body armor out of energy from the astral plane. i believe the "source material" for madelyne pryor in the x-man series was nate's memories + dormant psychic residue + astral energy. [there is one instance from much earlier in x-history where the shadow king's host body was grievously wounded, but appeared in a panel with no physical detriment shortly thereafter. the two theories were a] he was somehow using astral energy to replicate the form and function of organic matter, or b] artist error. there was no confirmation.] there really are not a lot of people that have accomplished those types of feats.

non-telepaths, or at least mutants who've otherwise shown no outright telepathic ability, have been able to astral project; and various heroes and mutants have been taken to the astral plane along with a telepath. "trance," i believe her name is, from the new x-men series can astral project. and the man "kim" from the madrox limited series was not only capable of astral projection to overcome his paralysis, but his astral form could also interact with the physical plane in a very destructive fashion.

Ok but that seems that my theory is correct. IF you can alter the astral plane then you can alter the physical plane, but not everybody who can astral project can do this.

I think the Shadow King was able to affect people from the astral plane but I think that was only mentally.

the shadow king exists solely as an astral entity, capable of taking over host bodies by basically kicking their minds out of their bodies. he was a telepath on xavier's level before he "died," after all.

certain telepaths have been able to mix the physical and the astral planes, but that may be a secondary skill set and not within the basic parameters of the term "telepath." nate grey was an exceptionally talented and strong psion, and he did it mostly by accident at first. thus far, xavier, cable, jean, rachel, psylocke, emma and virtually every other telepath have been unable to replicate those feats. xavier is partially iffy, however, because [i believe] onslaught's ability to manifest a body was derived from xavier's experience having his astral form made tangible. onslaught was, however, a separate entity and xavier can't necessarily be roped in with him. otherwise, as far as i know, nate's the only confirmed psion to have ever done that with any consistency, and most psions haven't even done it by accident or at all.

Originally posted by Disappear
manipulating the physical universe from the astral plane was something nobody really did until nate grey came along. first, he literally pulled xavier's astral form into the physical plane, giving it form and substance. then, he started creating physical constructs like body armor out of energy from the astral plane. i believe the "source material" for madelyne pryor in the x-man series was nate's memories + dormant psychic residue + astral energy. [there is one instance from much earlier in x-history where the shadow king's host body was grievously wounded, but appeared in a panel with no physical detriment shortly thereafter. the two theories were a] he was somehow using astral energy to replicate the form and function of organic matter, or b] artist error. there was no confirmation.] there really are not a lot of people that have accomplished those types of feats.

non-telepaths, or at least mutants who've otherwise shown no outright telepathic ability, have been able to astral project; and various heroes and mutants have been taken to the astral plane along with a telepath. "trance," i believe her name is, from the new x-men series can astral project. and the man "kim" from the madrox limited series was not only capable of astral projection to overcome his paralysis, but his astral form could also interact with the physical plane in a very destructive fashion.

yeah, well. magic is cheating.

Originally posted by Alfheim
How does the astral plane relate to the physical plane in the MU? It seems all powerful psionics can alter the astral plane, but not every one that can astral project is a powerful psionic. It also seems all powerful psionics can affect people from the astral plane. Therefore being able to alter the astral plane = powerful psionic = affect physical reality from the astral plane.

Originally posted by Alfheim
How does the astral plane relate to the physical plane in the MU?

It seems all powerful psionics can alter the astral plane, but not every one that can astral project is a powerful psionic. It also seems all powerful psionics can affect people from the astral plane.

Therefore being able to alter the astral plane = powerful psionic = affect physical reality from the astral plane.

1) Correct. Magic-based characters are also able to enter the Astral Plane, and powerful ones, such as Dr. Strange and Talisman, are (at least in theory) perfectly capable of altering/affecting the physical plane from the astral.

2) Correction: The way you have it written implies that Strange and Talisman are powerful psionics. It also doesn't account for those who can enter the astral plane without necessarily being psionic or magic. Thus, the equation/statement should read:

Therefore being able to enter the astral plane + powerful psionic/mage = affect astral and physical realities from the astral plane.

As I understand it, the Astral Plane is essentially sort of a shadow copy of the physical plane, so of course any sufficiently powerful astral traveller should be able to alter physical reality from the astral plane.

I think...

I preferred it back when Xavier and Shadow King were squaring off against each other in Roman gladiator combat, shaping the astral plane to their whims. Now it's a junkyard. I remember a few years back in an issue where even Wolverine entered by putting Cerebro on to send a message to Jean or Cable or something. I thought that the writer was real wolverine fanboy then............ 🙁

Originally posted by shksprtx
1) Correct. Magic-based characters are also able to enter the Astral Plane, and powerful ones, such as Dr. Strange and Talisman, are (at least in theory) perfectly capable of altering/affecting the physical plane from the astral.

2) Correction: The way you have it written implies that Strange and Talisman are powerful psionics. It also doesn't account for those who can enter the astral plane without necessarily being psionic or magic. Thus, the equation/statement should read:

As I understand it, the Astral Plane is essentially sort of a shadow copy of the physical plane, so of course any sufficiently powerful astral traveller should be able to alter physical reality from the astral plane.

I think...

As for as I know psionics is actually part of magic. Yes well all the evidence indicates that it should be possible.

Originally posted by willRules
I preferred it back when Xavier and Shadow King were squaring off against each other in Roman gladiator combat, shaping the astral plane to their whims. Now it's a junkyard. I remember a few years back in an issue where even Wolverine entered by putting Cerebro on to send a message to Jean or Cable or something. I thought that the writer was real wolverine fanboy then............ 🙁

In all fairness Cerebero is supposed to massively magnify mental ability. Wolverine doesnt have any psionic powers but he does have a strong control over his mind, so maybe with Cerebero and the fcat that Jean and Cable are really powerful telepaths it should be possible.

Originally posted by Disappear
the shadow king exists solely as an astral entity, capable of taking over host bodies by basically kicking their minds out of their bodies. he was a telepath on xavier's level before he "died," after all.

certain telepaths have been able to mix the physical and the astral planes, but that may be a secondary skill set and not within the basic parameters of the term "telepath." nate grey was an exceptionally talented and strong psion, and he did it mostly by accident at first. thus far, xavier, cable, jean, rachel, psylocke, emma and virtually every other telepath have been unable to replicate those feats. xavier is partially iffy, however, because [i believe] onslaught's ability to manifest a body was derived from xavier's experience having his astral form made tangible. onslaught was, however, a separate entity and xavier can't necessarily be roped in with him. otherwise, as far as i know, nate's the only confirmed psion to have ever done that with any consistency, and most psions haven't even done it by accident or at all.

true that. nate should be back this year

I seem to recall Hulk affecting astral projections in the past... but perhaps that's just energy blasts that I'm thinking of.

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
I seem to recall Hulk affecting astral projections in the past... but perhaps that's just energy blasts that I'm thinking of.

I think he might be the exception to the rule. For some reason he can see astral forms.

Originally posted by long pig
Um, no. Strange has been able to manipulate the physical world just as much from the astral plan as he can when he's physical. He's been doing it for 40 years.

Why does Strange need to leave his physical body protected by someone when he enters the Astral Plane if he can manipulate the physical world?

He should be able to shield it himself if he can affect the physical world while in the astral plane.

Originally posted by Alfheim
In all fairness Cerebero is supposed to massively magnify mental ability. Wolverine doesnt have any psionic powers but he does have a strong control over his mind, so maybe with Cerebero and the fcat that Jean and Cable are really powerful telepaths it should be possible.

Doesn't mean I have to be happy about it 👇

Originally posted by Mr Master
Why does Strange need to leave his physical body protected by someone when he enters the Astral Plane if he can manipulate the physical world?

He should be able to shield it himself if he can affect the physical world while in the astral plane.

He's shielded his body before while in the astral plane, he's also gave his unconscious body consciousness while in the AP and his body went on to fight in sync with his astral form.

Wait, are you implying he can't affect the physical world while in the Astral Plane? If so, then well....He can. He destroyed a planet with a blast while in the astral plane. He once flew into the middle of a supernova, used time-control and molecular reconstruction to stop the supernova and he then corked it.

Also, in your Wanda respect thread, the Flames of the Faltine aren't Strange's powers and Wanda wasn't controlling them. Dormammu was. He's faltinian and that's his signature intro.

in the latest issue of new x-men, trance releases her astral form while in limbo, crosses the dimensional border back to our dimension, and somehow re-manifests a body for a brief period of time. whether she created a new one, somehow brought her regular body with her across the dimensional gap, or just altered the appearance of her astral form so that it was completely visible and recognizable in the physical plane wasn't revealed.

but maybe she was "taking her body" with her.

Originally posted by long pig
Um, no. Strange has been able to manipulate the physical world just as much from the astral plan as he can when he's physical. He's been doing it for 40 years.

Originally posted by long pig
Um, no. Strange has been able to manipulate the physical world just as much from the astral plan as he can when he's physical. He's been doing it for 40 years.

Actually it’s a bit more different and complicated then that.
Nate can seemingly merge itself to both planes. Existing as a an astral projection on the physlca plane (completely invisible and intangible to the laws of the physical plane). Yet remain in the astral realm as well. As Xavier pointed out in the Onslaught saga “Existing in both planes at the same time”.

However, he is able to pull things in and out of the physical/astral realm to his whim (I guess when the plot calls for it). And effect the physical plane, while he remains in his merged state.

Dr. Strange needs to leave its body behind (which is the significant difference), yet can effect the physical plane similar to Nate.

If you ask me, Nate merging of both planes really just seems to be a higher form of intangibility.

Originally posted by Mindship
I somewhat agree.
AFAIK, psionics in Marvel is electromagnetically-based (a proposition I personally do not agree with). This would suggest an EM basis for the astral plane. Since electromagnetic phenomena is described very well by laws of physics, all three things (the physical plane, the astral plane and psi) should be somewhat related perhaps via Maxwell's equations. 😏

Hmm…the definition of psi ware never established. You get different definition and explanation from different characters. However, being directly related to electromagnetic seems absurd? Who made this claim and on what issue?

Just out of interest is there anybody in MU how can astral project but does not have telepathy? There was this guy in Psi-Force in marvels New Universe but not 616