Originally posted by Clobberin Time!Sure, Thing has fought alot more guys than Colossus has but lets look at how they fared with guys they have both fought.
Thing has fought guys that would bend Colossus into a pretzel and survived. Who has Colossus fought?NOBODY!!
Gladiator knocks Ben out with one punch. Colossus trades blows for awhile.
Juggernaut knocks Thing out with ease. Colossus knocks Juggernaut down twice and pummels him.
The Monster of Badoon takes Bens best punch then knocks Ben out with a single strike. Colossus defeats the Monster of Badoon.
Vision knocks Thing out. Colossus fought him to a double kayo.
And in Colossus' teenage years he split even with Thing in a armwrestling match.
Granted Thing did do better against the Champion but that match had special stipulations that suited Thing much better than the other combatants.
Originally posted by snoopdoggThing knocked out Galactus...ermm
Sure, Thing has fought alot more guys than Colossus has but lets look at how they fared with guys they have both fought.Gladiator knocks Ben out with one punch. Colossus trades blows for awhile.
Juggernaut knocks Thing out with ease. Colossus knocks Juggernaut down twice and pummels him.
The Monster of Badoon takes Bens best punch then knocks Ben out with a single strike. Colossus defeats the Monster of Badoon.
Vision knocks Thing out. Colossus fought him to a double kayo.
And in Colossus' teenage years he split even with Thing in a armwrestling match.
Granted Thing did do better against the Champion but that match had special stipulations that suited Thing much better than the other combatants.
How did the stipulations with Champion favor Thing more than Colossus? Gladiator never knocked the Thing out with one punch to my knowledge. That same story arc had the Thing trash a Skrull copy of Colossus who was actually more powerful than the real Colossus anyway (written by Byrne who did X-Men and F4). And didnt the Badoon monster die from falling a great distance? Interesting choice of examples.
Things had good fights with the Champion, Beyonder, Terrax, Hulk, Destroyer, Occulus, Wrecker, Paibok, Blastaar, Silver Surfer, Namor, Sasquatch, Blackbolt, She-Hulk, Wonderman, Annihilus, Titania, Ronan, Super Skrull, Terminus, etc...
And those were good showings...he's been trashed by Gladiator, Drax, Hyperstorm, Abraxis, Ego, Galactus, Thanos,etc....
The only real powerhouses Colossus has fought i.e. Jugs, Gladiator...even the Wrecker all kicked his ass. The wrecker broke Colossus ribs...The Thing broke the Wrecker's arms using his bare hands.
I think this is a good fight but Colossus' resume doesn't suggest he has the edge
Originally posted by WynndarIt was boxing rules only. Colossus has no training in boxing.
How did the stipulations with Champion favor Thing more than Colossus?
Originally posted by WynndarMaybe it was two. But he was kayoed early.
Gladiator never knocked the Thing out with one punch to my knowledge.
Originally posted by WynndarWhere is it stated that a skrull is MORE powerful than the real thing? If that's true Colossus kayed a Skrull copy of Hulk before.That same story arc had the Thing trash a Skrull copy of Colossus who was actually more powerful than the real Colossus anyway (written by Byrne who did X-Men and F4).
Originally posted by WynndarIt wasn't stated he died but he was kayoed and Colossus survived indicating Colossus is tougher. Colossus walked away.And didnt the Badoon monster die from falling a great distance? Interesting choice of examples.
Originally posted by WynndarLike I said Thing fought more people, but that's no reason to say Thing wins.Things had good fights with the Champion, Beyonder, Terrax, Hulk, Destroyer, Occulus, Wrecker, Paibok, Blastaar, Silver Surfer, Namor, Sasquatch, Blackbolt, She-Hulk, Wonderman, Annihilus, Titania, Ronan, Super Skrull, Terminus, etc...
Originally posted by WynndarDon't forget Sasquatch, She-Hulk and Blob.
The only real powerhouses Colossus has fought i.e. Jugs, Gladiator...even the Wrecker all kicked his ass. The wrecker broke Colossus ribs...The Thing broke the Wrecker's arms using his bare hands.
The Wrecker and his crew were getting their @ss kicked and they were even getting help from Doc Ock! That was 5 on 1! The Wrecker then put everything he had in a attack and nailed Colossus with a cheap shot cause he thought Colossus was going to kill them. The Wrecker has even kayoed the Hulk with his crowbar.
Originally posted by snoopdoggYep, a direct comparison is the best way to go. So saying Thing fought this guy and that guy is pointless unless Colossus has fought them also.
Sure, Thing has fought alot more guys than Colossus has but lets look at how they fared with guys they have both fought.Gladiator knocks Ben out with one punch. Colossus trades blows for awhile.
Juggernaut knocks Thing out with ease. Colossus knocks Juggernaut down twice and pummels him.
The Monster of Badoon takes Bens best punch then knocks Ben out with a single strike. Colossus defeats the Monster of Badoon.
Vision knocks Thing out. Colossus fought him to a double kayo.
And in Colossus' teenage years he split even with Thing in a armwrestling match.
Granted Thing did do better against the Champion but that match had special stipulations that suited Thing much better than the other combatants.
Judging by direct comparisons Colossus has better showings.
Originally posted by snoopdogg
It was boxing rules only. Colossus has no training in boxing.
And the Thing does?
"He is uniquely gifted in the art of hand to hand combat (a skill he honed long before he became the Thing), though his fighting style tends to be kind of loose brawling technique all his own" -Marvel.com
The thing wasnt trained as a boxer he just grew up fighting. The Thing and Colossus have similar fighting styles which mostly resemble something like boxing although they have both been known to employ martial art techniques, i.e. when the Thing used jiu-jitsu to pin down Iron man in attack mode.
However, the fight with Champion didnt have rules that limited Colossus or put him at a disadvantage...he just wasnt tough or skilled enough.
Originally posted by snoopdogg
Maybe it was two. But he was kayoed early.
Man I've debated with you dozens of times on here, I know you know your comics and I respect you but this just isnt right. Im not sure why people try to compare Thing and Colossus fight with Gladiator to favor Colossus. He wasn't Ko's in one or two blows. Their fight goes on for a few pages...Colossus' fight last like four panels. The Thing was caught off guard by Gladiator while he was basically just trying to protect civilians...he was punched through about 30 cars...thrown 30 something stories into the air...after tackling Gladiator he was then thrown into the ground from another considerable distance...and finally KO'd when Gladiator slammed a bus on him. Moments later he woke up and knocked the bus clear into the air with one hand and returned to the fight.
Originally posted by snoopdogg
Where is it stated that a skrull is MORE powerful than the real thing? If that's true Colossus kayed a Skrull copy of Hulk before.
Obviously the Skrull Hulk wasnt stronger than the original although it is a pretty good demonstration by Colossus.
Originally posted by snoopdogg
It wasn't stated he died but he was kayoed and Colossus survived indicating Colossus is tougher. Colossus walked away.
I think he died...Colossus is obviously tougher than that monster...durability is his thing. But you said it like he beat the monster to death with his bare hands where the Thing failed. When in reality he fell a great distance with the monster who died on impact...Neither Colossus or the Thing can be harmed from falling, both guys can survive atmospheric re-entry from space!!!
Originally posted by snoopdogg
Like I said Thing fought more people, but that's no reason to say Thing wins.
No its not irrefutable evidence that the Thing would win. And the Thing doesnt simply have a quantitative advantage in terms of resume, its qualitative; the Thing routinely fights a higher quality of opponents. Cosmic and interdimensional villains like Annihilus, Super Skrull, and Occulus, Heralds of Galactus like Silver Surfer and Terrax, Mystical opponents like Diablo's elementals or the Destroyer armor with the power cosmic...and these are all good showings where the Thing came out on top!!! The Thing came out on top against types like the Destroyer and Terrax!!! People list Colossus' losses to Gladiator and Juggernaut as his highlights?!?!?! However, the Thing has a plenty of wins to use as examples
Originally posted by snoopdogg
Don't forget Sasquatch, She-Hulk and Blob.
Sasquatch and She-Hulk are pretty big hitters...but neither of them are a huge threat to the Thing or Colossus considering they're relatively not as great of fighters and their both heroes so they dont use the same deadly techniques as say Gladiator punching someone into the Sun or Paibok punching a hole through Drax's skull. But still Sasquatch and She-Hulk deserve mention.
Blob isnt in either of these guys' class so of course I didnt mention him...I dont brag about how the Thing chased down the Rhino (Who runs at over 100mph) and kicked his ass right?
Originally posted by snoopdogg
The Wrecker and his crew were getting their @ss kicked and they were even getting help from Doc Ock! That was 5 on 1! The Wrecker then put everything he had in a attack and nailed Colossus with a cheap shot cause he thought Colossus was going to kill them. The Wrecker has even kayoed the Hulk with his crowbar.
Using the Wrecker as an example doesnt help your case. With the wrecking crew his power is diminished and distributed among his teammates...hence the Wrecker was not at his peak during the Secret War. However when Wrecker has all of his power he's beaten Thor. The FIRST time Thing beat the Wrecker, the Wrecker had taken all of his power back from the wrecking crew and he was actually out to kill a depowered Thunderball. The Thing happened to be in the house next door and interviened...after taking dozens of shots from Wrecker's crowbar and nearly getting killed, the Thing crushed the Wreckers arms with his bare hands. Thing also kicked his ass on the way home from the bars when he was drunk...but i dont know if the Wrecker had 100% of his power like he did in their first fight.
Like I said, its a good fight but the Thing edges him out. I could relate if a Colossus fan thinks he could take it too; but to say Colossus is some kind of clear winner or that Colossus has a clear advantage is just ignorant and shows a lack of knowledge of the Thing.
Originally posted by juggernaut74
Yep, a direct comparison is the best way to go. So saying Thing fought this guy and that guy is pointless unless Colossus has fought them also.Judging by direct comparisons Colossus has better showings.
Fine then, but the only viable comparison is the Champion...they both fought him at relatively the same time and under the same conditions. Maybe the Wrecker too but the Thing fought and beat a more powerful incarnation of the Wrecker anyway. Jugs had the element of Surprise on the Thing and never knocked him out...and the Thing lasted longer against Gladiator than Colossus did anyway...I think the only reason he mentioned that fight was because someone told him Gladiator knocked the Thing out with one punch which wasnt true. I think Colossus had an encounter with Grey Hulk as well and we all know how the Thing did against him.
Originally posted by DARKLORDCAEDUS
Piotr is a better fighter, but with Ben's heart, The Thing may win.
😕
I agree without doubt that The THING will win... But where do you get the idea that Colossus is the better fighter?
And BTW Colossus isn't stronger than The THING either.
Ben wins 10/10 both versions of the fight w/wo the weapons.
😄
Originally posted by WynndarLike I said Thing was better suited for that type of match.
And the Thing does?
"He is uniquely gifted in the art of hand to hand combat (a skill he honed long before he became the Thing), though his fighting style tends to be kind of loose brawling technique all his own" -Marvel.com
Originally posted by WynndarI know this. Colossus was 18 at the time and admitted he was inexperienced next to the other heroes. Times have changed.However, the fight with Champion didnt have rules that limited Colossus or put him at a disadvantage...he just wasnt tough or skilled enough.
Originally posted by WynndarThe difference is Colossus stood toe to toe with Gladiator and Thing was unable to even land a single shot.Man I've debated with you dozens of times on here, I know you know your comics and I respect you but this just isnt right. Im not sure why people try to compare Thing and Colossus fight with Gladiator to favor Colossus. He wasn't Ko's in one or two blows. Their fight goes on for a few pages...Colossus' fight last like four panels. The Thing was caught off guard by Gladiator while he was basically just trying to protect civilians...he was punched through about 30 cars...thrown 30 something stories into the air...after tackling Gladiator he was then thrown into the ground from another considerable distance...and finally KO'd when Gladiator slammed a bus on him. Moments later he woke up and knocked the bus clear into the air with one hand and returned to the fight.
Originally posted by WynndarAnd nowhere does it say they were stronger than the originals. I'm pretty sure it was the alien tech. that allowed Skrull Colossus to send Cap. packing. Unless you think he was stronger than Gladiator.Have your read the comic? seriously....
It isnt stated that a Skrull in general is stronger than an original. Did you read the comic? Im starting to doubt it. The Thing says it himself that the Skrull imposter is far more resilient than the original. Don't blame me, John Byrne wrote the comic, and he wrote for X-Men and F4 for years. The Skrull's powers were somehow modified through technology. His punches knocked Captain America off his feet even through his shield!!! SOMETHING GLADIATOR HIMSELF COULDNT DO LATER IN THAT ISSUE!!!
Originally posted by WynndarYea...that's fair.
Obviously the Skrull Hulk wasnt stronger than the original although it is a pretty good demonstration by Colossus.
Originally posted by WynndarWell the Monster did effortlessly take Bens best sunday punch and smiled. That should speak for his toughess.I think he died...Colossus is obviously tougher than that monster...durability is his thing. But you said it like he beat the monster to death with his bare hands where the Thing failed. When in reality he fell a great distance with the monster who died on impact...Neither Colossus or the Thing can be harmed from falling, both guys can survive atmospheric re-entry from space!!!
Originally posted by WynndarAnd yet everytime he fights somebody that Colossus has fought he does not look at good as Colossus does.
No its no t irrefutable evidence that the Thing would win. And the Thing doesnt simply have a quantitative advantage in terms of resume, its qualitative; the Thing routinely fights a higher quality of opponents. Cosmic and interdimensional villains like Annihilus, Super Skrull, and Occulus, Heralds of Galactus like Silver Surfer and Terrax, Mystical opponents like Diablo's elementals or the Destroyer armor with the power cosmic...and these are all good showings where the Thing came out on top!!! The Thing came out on top against types like the Destroyer and Terrax!!! People list Colossus' losses to Gladiator and Juggernaut as his highlights?!?!?! However, the Thing has a plenty of wins to use as examples
Originally posted by WynndarDoesn't help my case? Why not? Colossus was fighting them 5 on 1. Things never fought them plus another formidable foe on top of that.Using the Wrecker as an example doesnt help your case. With the wrecking crew his power is diminished and distributed among his teammates...hence the Wrecker was not at his peak during the Secret War. However when Wrecker has all of his power he's beaten Thor. The FIRST time Thing beat the Wrecker, the Wrecker had taken all of his power back from the wrecking crew and he was actually out to kill a depowered Thunderball. The Thing happened to be in the house next door and interviened...after taking dozens of shots from Wrecker's crowbar and nearly getting killed, the Thing crushed the Wreckers arms with his bare hands. Thing also kicked his ass on the way home from the bars when he was drunk...but i dont know if the Wrecker had 100% of his power like he did in their first fight.
Originally posted by WynndarI never really said Colossus is gonna stomp him either. It's a very close fight. In 1982 I would have agreed Thing wins. But 2007 it's a different game.
Like I said, its a good fight but the Thing edges him out. I could relate if a Colossus fan thinks he could take it too; but to say Colossus is some kind of clear winner or that Colossus has a clear advantage is just ignorant and shows a lack of knowledge of the Thing.
Originally posted by WynndarJuggy had the element of surpise on Colossus here but Colossus didn't buckle!
Jugs had the element of Surprise on the Thing and never knocked him out...
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Colossus%20fights/ColossusandJuggySW38.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Colossus%20fights/ColossusandJuggySW38-2.jpg
Originally posted by WynndarWhen did Colossus have a encounter with Grey Hulk?
I think Colossus had an encounter with Grey Hulk as well and we all know how the Thing did against him.
Besides Thing is no longer at those levels of power.
Personally I think this fight is a toss up.
While Ben has experience in his corner, I don't think it's anywhere NEAR enough to overshadow Colossus' own, he's been fighting along side the x-men for years.
In terms of straight skill, I'd be more inclined to give that advantage to Colossus. While both are skilled in the area of h2h combat, I would venture to say that I've seen Colossus be far more versatile while fighting, while Thing also just goes for knuckle dusting brawls.
It doesn't help Thing that his body type is also less effecient than C's is, Colossus has a longer more athletic body, allowing for more mobility, agility, and a greater reach than Thing, plus he's a smaller target, while Thing's about a thick as a Hummer.
Still though this fight can go either way, if Colossus tries to fight smart and use his skills and attributes to his advantage he'll take this home, but if he gets sucked into a toe to toe standing brawl, that's where Thing lives.
It's a 5/5 split imo.
I imagine you guys probably don't care much for my input but you're getting it anyways.. lol
Okay so as far as the Gladiator fights are concerned:
When Gladiator fought Thing I agree that Thing was very much knocked out after he gothis ass tossed into the Baxter building, the narrative even describes that Thing is losing his grip on conciouseness then we see him fall over and he doesn't get back up till the end of the fight.
The fight lasting for "pages" isn't really anything to brag about since there's only really 4 hits between Thing and Kallark and 3 of those hits are putting Thing on his ass.
Between Gladiator and Colossus, I have to disagree with the "five panels" comment, the destruction to the surrounding area, the condition of the fighters and the narrative all indicate/suggest that the fight was of a lenthy to semi-lengthy nature. It's also important to note that when Gladiator does emerge from the debris he's bruised, bloodied, and beaten (on), the narrative also indicates that Kallark is not only staggered but in PAIN, something Thing has yet to accomplish.
In regards to the monster of Badoon, Snopp you did say that Colossus had defeated it, and he didn't, he walked away from that sure, but it wasn't a flat win. I DO however find that feat to be highly questionable. Anyone who can take hits from people in the 80-100 class strength range should be able to handle a decent fall. Hell Sabretooth's stood up after re-entry from space. While, the feat isn't something I consider invalid, I also don't see how it does much to prove a point when it's contradictory by it's very nature.
With Champion, I disagree that the fight favored Thing over Colossus, Colossus was no less capible in that fight than Thing and actually probably even moreso given his training, and physical factors that I already mentioned in my last post. However I do think that his lack of experience is worthy of mention and has merit, how much merit I don't know, but it's relivent enough a factor, to make the comparison between the two irrelivant.
Sasquatch; Both of Bens displays against him have been good ones (though the Infinity Crusade one is highly suspect), while Colossus was getting pounded on before switching up his gameplan.
It's a good showing for Bens resiliency and a good showing for Colossus' versatility.
Finally concerning the Wrecking Crew. Wrecker has never defeated Thor straight up Wyn, so no need to paint that picture, he's beaten on a depowered Thor, and did well to beat up on Thor when he wasn't fighting back, but when Thor's gotten serious with him he's one shotted him while calling him a nuisance.
I would say that while it's true that Wrecker clearly does share his power with his crew, it's ambiguously unclear how much if at all he really is depowered. Even when he has his crew around, the members are able to trade blows with other capible bricks, they have the stopping power to nearly kill them too, and they have durability to damn near no sell people like cap and spiderman to some extents more often than not as well as take brick shots with a fairly impressive amount of resiliency. I mean when Wrecker Koed the hulk he DID have his crew around right? So IMO I think the Secret War example still stands as credible and as impressive if not more impressive than beating Wrecker on his lonesome.
All that said i still think this is a 5/5 split.
Originally posted by snoopdogg
jinzin what say you about their Juggernaut fights?
Hmmm well I don't see them as being much to prove either point, Colossus, did handle fighting Juggernaught better than Thing did, but Thing did get cheapshotted and he wasn't exactly in the best shape to begin with.
I don't think they're worth talking about because both characters lost, Thing was tired, and Colossus inexperienced. C's feat is more impressive, but only due to circumstances. 😬
