Originally posted by Darth Sparrow
it's simple really, just Darth nilihus on wookiepedia.
wookieepedia isnt credible enough for something like stating how good someone is in saber combat because anybody (like fanboys) can edit to say what they want. Wookieepdia is better for general information not for stuff like this considering there is no evidence to back up that nihilus is good in saber combat. An exception is if it has the blue source thing after the comment.
EDIT: dont get me wrong wookieepedia is a good site but when you get into something like this(nihilus's saber skill) there needs to be some other evidence becuase we only see nihilus use his saber once and its was not a cut scene it was gameplay so you can't judge him to be adiquit if there is no other evidence or quotes about it.
Well actually evidence points to Nihilus being good at saber fighting. He had a saber duel with Exile, Visas, and Canderous(either had a blaster or vibroblade) and according to Visas WAS WINNING. Then they fought some more(Visas may of also cut off his flow of power via her bond with him, which would have weakened/stunned him) and he eventually fell. Also, this was after being doubly weakened, both from his hunger, and from unsuccessfully trying to Force Kill Exile.
Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Well actually evidence points to Nihilus being good at saber fighting. He had a saber duel with Exile, Visas, and Canderous(either had a blaster or vibroblade) and according to Visas WAS WINNING. Then they fought some more(Visas may of also cut off his flow of power via her bond with him, which would have weakened/stunned him) and he eventually fell. Also, this was after being doubly weakened, both from his hunger, and from unsuccessfully trying to Force Kill Exile.And what wookieepedia says about his saber skills i still dont buy cause there is nothing credible behind it
But yet again i could say what make's visas and the exile uber saber duelists? You already said why they won, but the exile's victory against sion was also "tainted" considering she never killed him in a saber duel. The only one she did beat was traya but i never heard her to be a saber master (though she is very powerful but her exact skills with the lightsaber is still not definitely determined though i lobe the 3 sabers at once) And again we don't know how long was or some key details(like how nihilus was actually killed) of the fight was because it was gameplay because sometime you fight him and he will use X amount of force powers (as do other bad guys in both kotor games) than use X more/lesss force powers in another time fighting him. ANd Visas never actually said he was winning rather he was too powerful and given her relationship to him and their bond her view of things can be tainted due to her past relationship to him.(just letting you know that im not saying he isnt cuas ei obviously know he is but rather her mind state at the time is gonna be rather disturbed)
well, i did not say he was better than any one of the sith's like dooku who was a talented duelest and had many battles with multiple opponents but i did say he was good (though never as good as a sith who constainly engaged in duels). he used force more and thus was possibley...and i say possibley because i know how much you argued over a simple fact of him being a acception swordsman (which of every sith had some good skill with a saber because that's the way it is...no use arguing with wheather or not the dark lord was some what good with his weapon duh) but i say possibly the strongest force user because of his abilitiy he used so much of consuming.
Originally posted by Darth HordVisas' saber skills are unknown, but it's very possible that Exile knew all the saber styles of combat, and he at least knew Shicho, Makashi, and Soresu. Also, Sion cannot be killed by saber's, she had to erode his will(stupidest part of the game IMO) and Traya was not the best saber duelist, she had one hand of course but compensated with that by using 3 sabers via TK against her, and she still won. Think about it this way, in actuality Nihilus was like 3-5 feet away from the team, and could not just take a saber blow and then use a force ability, he had to keep on blocking and keep his attackers at bay to survive, and he had no room to maneuver. She stated he was too powerful obviously because they were not doing any damage despite outnumbering him, only after encouragement(YOU CAN DO IT!thumbsupdur) or possibly having her stop his flow of power did they prevail and win. Also, he was still doubly weakened when the fight started, and would of obviously won if he wasn't(hell, after being weakened only once he was still powerful enough to bring Exile to her knees with a mere gesture).
But yet again i could say what make's visas and the exile uber saber duelists? You already said why they won, but the exile's victory against sion was also "tainted" considering she never killed him in a saber duel. The only one she did beat was traya but i never heard her to be a saber master (though she is very powerful but her exact skills with the lightsaber is still not definitely determined though i lobe the 3 sabers at once) And again we don't know how long was or some key details(like how nihilus was actually killed) of the fight was because it was gameplay because sometime you fight him and he will use X amount of force powers (as do other bad guys in both kotor games) than use X more/lesss force powers in another time fighting him. ANd Visas never actually said he was winning rather he was too powerful and given her relationship to him and their bond her view of things can be tainted due to her past relationship to him.(just letting you know that im not saying he isnt cuas ei obviously know he is but rather her mind state at the time is gonna be rather disturbed)
to be honest, it doesn't matter how good she was or how the battle happened but my simple point is no matter what happened in the battle where Nilihus died he was the Dark lord of the sith, he had beaten other people to get to that level, he had been taught to use his weapon well, regardless of how much it was used. he didn't need to use it. but never the less whatever it was...3 against 1...he lost, he lost but his entire reputation is not held on that battle...let's face it...dooku was a master swordsman with a lifetime of experience but Anikin was alittle better and that is all it takes...
anikin made dooku look like a fool, nilihus was outnumbered.... and who knows if his apprentice was better...we could take vote and most people would say anikin was better than obiwan but obiwan won...so it is interchangable...things happen in battle that will change the outcome...anikin made a dumb move and nilihus was weakend...things happen and it changes battles
Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Visas' saber skills are unknown, but it's very possible that Exile knew all the saber styles of combat, and he at least knew Shicho, Makashi, and Soresu.
Knowing them and mastering them are 2 different things.
Also, Sion cannot be killed by saber's, she had to erode his will(stupidest part of the game IMO) and Traya was not the best saber duelist, she had one hand of course but compensated with that by using 3 sabers via TK against her, and she still won.
Agreed and i could say she just used the force to disable the saber's and /or use the force against traya without even taking out the lightsaber's. But I wont because i know it is very probable a lightsaber occurred.
Think about it this way, in actuality Nihilus was like 3-5 feet away from the team, and could not just take a saber blow and then use a force ability, he had to keep on blocking and keep his attackers at bay to survive, and he had no room to maneuver. She stated he was too powerful obviously because they were not doing any damage despite outnumbering him, only after encouragement(YOU CAN DO IT!thumbsupdur) or possibly having her stop his flow of power did they prevail and win. Also, he was still doubly weakened when the fight started, and would of obviously won if he wasn't(hell, after being weakened only once he was still powerful enough to bring Exile to her knees with a mere gesture).
The points here i was trying to make was that I have seen you say that he uses a one handed saber style (makashi possibly which i would tend to agree with you with) but you also say that he often uses force powers with his other hand. But that is gameplay i would play against him and some times he would use the force very frequently and other times he wouldn't. My point about Visas is that i think she might have been exaggerating a little due to the fact of her relationship to nihilus and combine that with the fact that the fight had not finished (gameplay wise it was like half over). I know he would have won if he wasnt weakened. Im just saying that the exile seems to be just slightly above average and in ways she is more of an unknown than Revan so i can't say that she is a master or above the average duelist.
At Darth Sparrow: I agreed with most of what you have posted. But what I am trying to say is that we know everyone (jedi/sith) had some lightsaber training so we don't say that in arguments (particularly in the versus thread)that cause we dont state the obvious. But by saying that he was was proficient in saber combat led me and viloent to believe that you were suggesting he was really good at saber combat. But wookieepedia isnt reliable enough in vs. because a lot of what they say has no sources to back it up and is most likely a person (or fanboys) do their best and trying to describe something but they can exaggerate.
that is true, you probly need more evidence to prove that..but instead of being like violent2dope and arguing. i will simply tell you that not every battle is decided by who's better...if they were better that could be why Nilihus lost or maybe a series of events that no one could control lead to his down fall but... either way, that battle can't tell you if he was a good swordsman...
Originally posted by Darth Hord1. True, however she learns those three styles pretty early on her quest, and would have alot of time to hone those skills, which would give her the Shi-Choiness of Shi-Cho(Can't remember what it's good for lol), the elegance and power of the lightsaber to lightsaber form Makashi, and the rock solid defense of Soresu, that's just if those are the only styles she knows, she may know more or even all.
Knowing them and mastering them are 2 different things.Agreed and i could say she just used the force to disable the saber's and /or use the force against traya without even taking out the lightsaber's. But I wont because i know it is very probable a lightsaber occurred.
The points here i was trying to make was that I have seen you say that he uses a one handed saber style (makashi possibly which i would tend to agree with you with) but you also say that he often uses force powers with his other hand. But that is gameplay i would play against him and some times he would use the force very frequently and other times he wouldn't. My point about Visas is that i think she might have been exaggerating a little due to the fact of her relationship to nihilus and combine that with the fact that the fight had not finished (gameplay wise it was like half over). I know he would have won if he wasnt weakened. Im just saying that the exile seems to be just slightly above average and in ways she is more of an unknown than Revan so i can't say that she is a master or above the average duelist.
2. More than likely she dueled the sabers.
3. Yes, his style is one handed, tho it lacks the elegance of Makashi(I think it is probably some kind of unorthodox style he made himself) he does use the Force with the free hand, tho the reason I don't think he would of realistically had time to use it is because he was fighting 3 opponents, and in gameplay he can take a blasterbolt to the chest or a saber to the head and not even be fazed and then use a Force power, but realistically that would not work of course. I can get your point about Visas exaggerrating, tho I find it unlikely. I think Exile is above average definately, she killed Traya afterall, who was powerful enough to one-shot 3 Jedi masters.
Overall, I still think Nihilus is a good duelist, sure he's no Sidious or Windu, but this I know, in a fist fight Nihilus takes em both at the same time.😎
Originally posted by Violent2Dope
1. True, however she learns those three styles pretty early on her quest, and would have alot of time to hone those skills, which would give her the Shi-Choiness of Shi-Cho(Can't remember what it's good for lol), the elegance and power of the lightsaber to lightsaber form Makashi, and the rock solid defense of Soresu, that's just if those are the only styles she knows, she may know more or even all.2. More than likely she dueled the sabers.
3. Yes, his style is one handed, tho it lacks the elegance of Makashi(I think it is probably some kind of unorthodox style he made himself) he does use the Force with the free hand, tho the reason I don't think he would of realistically had time to use it is because he was fighting 3 opponents, and in gameplay he can take a blasterbolt to the chest or a saber to the head and not even be fazed and then use a Force power, but realistically that would not work of course. I can get your point about Visas exaggerrating, tho I find it unlikely. I think Exile is above average definately, she killed Traya afterall, who was powerful enough to one-shot 3 Jedi masters.
Overall, I still think Nihilus is a good duelist, sure he's no Sidious or Windu, but this I know, in a fist fight Nihilus takes em both at the same time.😎
1.She would know them but it all depends on how she deals her situation.
2. I agree i dont see her getting past part of the of trayas defense with dueling them.
3. His style is one handed because even though it is gameplay it is the only type he uses but i would argue that he doesnt use the force with his free hand as much as you would say. (gameplay comes into play) I would say the exile is also above average jedi both im power and due to her situation. And as far ranking Nihilus saber's skills compared to the other kotor sith (revan,malak,traya and sion) I would tend to put him on the bottom of the list a because he is so powerful that he doesn't need to practice(force demi god almost) and b. because there is nothing else known he about his saber skill or other duels he was even in.
At Darth Sparrow:I am fully aware that the strongest don't always wins and their were things that made nihilus weaker during that the duel. but again it was the only duel he was in and due to that you can't call him a saber master or anything of the sort. And me and viloent arent really arguing were pretty much trying to set a standard for what nihilus's saber skill is.
that wasn't the only saber duel he was in in his life...he trained with his master so im sure that meant some...and all jedi or sith pick at least one style and master it...theres no way nilihus never trained in a style...every one does and therefore if you become a jedi, sith lord or espcially dark lord...you have masterd a style...besides...didn't he beat his master and a few other sith lords too.
im not saying he was as good as dooku or anikin necessarily...but the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absenece...meaning just because there is no evidence of saber fights...doesn't mean he was without saber skills.
Originally posted by Darth Sparrow
that wasn't the only saber duel he was in in his life...he trained with his master so im sure that meant some...and all jedi or sith pick at least one style and master it...theres no way nilihus never trained in a style...every one does and therefore if you become a jedi, sith lord or espcially dark lord...you have masterd a style...besides...didn't he beat his master and a few other sith lords too.im not saying he was as good as dooku or anikin necessarily...but the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absenece...meaning just because there is no evidence of saber fights...doesn't mean he was without saber skills.
Unless there is no more information on his duelings skills than he must be considered average at best when you compare to any other jedi/sith. And due to a the lack of information of other duels he was in and the lack information of his saber style (other than it being one handed and a little unorthodox at times). The facts are every sith lord practiced in saber combat and probably was some type of master of it but that considers than average because we have to see how they used it or at least have some information of duels than have been in/won. That's what makes them above the average to saber masters (like mace for example)
I can compare him to other kotor characters who have little describing their sabers skills that i would rank higher due to their being more information on duels they have been. I'd say that Revan,Malak and Sion are all better saber duelists than Nihilus and traya being rather close to him if not weaker.
And the only other sith he beat was his master (traya) and even then Sion was with him (not that he couldnt do it alone) and the video of him pwning sion is not canon.
Originally posted by Darth Sparrow
so sure...we don't know...but that doesn't mean he was considered average...only that he was trained but his skill of it is unknown...not that he was average...he could've been good.
He was considered a force demi god but that he can't be considered above the average. If you were to say that in a nihilus vs. thread that he was a very good to master duelist or anything of th e sort people like darth sexy,manslayer or myself would attack that because there is nothing to say that he is above the average and to say that he can contend with likes of exar kun,bane or Maul in a sabers only duel is very ignorant. That is why people who have great knowledge on nihilus like Violent and Nikkolas (who argues the most for nihilus) don't make much reference to his saber skill.
Originally posted by Violent2Dope
The vid of him pwning Sion was cut, Nihilus was always intended to be the strongest character in Kotor 2.
I completely I agree with you. This probably one of my favorite videos that should Not have been cut from the game. Not only does this video give us a good information on the relationship of Sion and Nihilus. But I love the fact that the supposed immortal Sion gets pwn. And I think that Nihilus being the ultimate bad guy in kotor should have been the final boss but due to the way the story unfolded he was killed off earlier than the other 2.
Probably because Sion was an idiot who couldn't track down a three-thousand-foot whale that sang show tunes. You had to find him in your first encounter, and in the second encounter, the loser basically waits at the Trayus academy until you came along.
Traya didn't want to fight you until the other two were dead.