Disputes Among Christians

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
God: "Let's look at my Heaven invite list. Hmmm.... Catholics, pray to me, live by basic Christian rules, read Bible good, good... ooops, some bad doctrine there. They're out. Mormons... hmmm, same. Oh dear, this group, that group and them, oh and them... all off the list. And I am left with.... JIA and... Marchello. Sigh. Eternity is going to be hell."

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Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Exactly. Remove Islam and something would merely take its place. It is probably not a coincidence that the places where the big two monotheistic religions (Islam and Christianity) are doing best in the places where people have the most trouble in life.

True, but Islam isn't doing much to make anything better, in fact, it further encourage the violence. On top of that, it gives another reason to remain disunified from people of other cultures and faiths.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
As such the logical progression that would contribute to the soundest future would seem to be to concentrate not so much on the religions, but rather the aspects and issues that drive people to their fanatical branches.

If we all had a lot of money, we'd hate each other less, and learn more. Poverty is the source of all crimes, ignorance is the source of all pain, and selfishness is the source of all evil.

The major problem I have with Christianity and Islam is that these religions promote the idea of "salvation" and the fear that we will end up in Hell, more so than encouraging us to care more about the other.

The fear of Hell is a selfish fear. The desire for Heaven is a selfish desire.

I want people to be happy here now on Earth, not after they die.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Do you hold the view that their faith alone is the motivating factor for their violent discontent or would you agree that their are certain social/cultural influences that motivate as well and lay the ground work for manipulation from more educated fanatics of the faith?

Or, to make it simpler - if Islam was removed from the context would these misguided people suddenly turn into innocent lambs full of love for all or would they simply turn to another doctrine - be it political, ideological or religious - that says they are right to be angry, then endorses their anger at the world and is prepared to direct it against obvious targets? [/B]

Oh great. Here comes a Islamophile apologetic, ready to shit his pants defending something noone critisised.

To make it even more simpler for you (since you either have problem with comprehantion or you haven't read the whole thread)

My answer is purely demographic and on weaknesses of Christianity because of its devision, it has NOTHING to do with peace or war.

Read the whole thread. Its about the strenght of one ideology over the other. In this case Islam over Christianity.

And no, its not cultural its religious. (but since Islam is the religion of the Arabs and it is absorbed Arab culture which other people who are Muslims mimic. So yeah, its partly cultural)

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Right, my reply lead you to make a ridiculous and utterly stupid question on the bases of your own lack of ability to comprehand what the answer was about.

Or to make it simpler for YOU -

Islam has a stronger identity than Christianity.

People who look for religion will turn to Islam before they turn to Christianity.

The theme of the thread is ''Disputes between Christians''.

The answer is that ''yes there are numerous disputes of the Christians, and thus it is why Islam is stronger religion and identity because of its unity''.

Western post-Christians are getting older and older (due to low fertality rates) and Muslims are getting younger and younger.

THAT MEANS that Muslims are the next workforce - they'll be the ones building the nations. (like Christians did in the PAST)

WHICH MEANS -> people who are religious will turn to ISLAM because of the factors above. (stronger identity, stronger RELIGIOUS ideology and migration of Muslims into Europe)
Christianity REMAINS separated and that is WHY it is weak and will remain weak.

This demographic and cultural profile cannot be applied to Jews since they are not bent on conversions. It applies purely to Islam and Christianity.

IN SHORT -

My answer is purely demographic and on weaknesses of Christianity because of its devision, it has NOTHING to do with peace or war.

Get a bloody grip.

There are just as many divisions within Islam as there is in Christianity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_Islam
Where as Christian argue, Islam kill each other.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Islam has a stronger identity than Christianity. People who look for religion will turn to Islam before they turn to Christianity. The theme of the thread is ''Disputes between Christians''.
The answer is that ''yes there are numerous disputes of the Christians, and thus it is why Islam is stronger religion and identity''.

There is not much debate between Muslims on doctrine. Most conflict between Muslims are centered around territory and law, as well as resources, while Christians are divided between Biblical interpretations.

Most Muslims will agree on thier doctrine however, and any dispute as to what the Quran says is very minor, well according to my knowledge.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Western post-Christians are getting older and older (due to low fertality rates) and Muslims are getting younger and younger.

That doesn't exactly give me a "warm and fuzzy" feeling inside, Muslims in general are far more strict than Christians are. Not that I fear the spread of Islam, since it is already the World's Second Largest Religion, however, Islam (via the Quran) leaves far less room for new ideas, while Christianity has evolved and progressed at a MUCH faster rate.

I do know a few Muslims (younger generation Muslims) who are vastly open minded, but coincidently they grew up around Christians and Athiests in the West.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
THAT MEANS that Muslims are the next workforce - they'll be the one building the nations.

WHICH MEANS -> people who are religious will turn to ISLAM because of the factors above.
Christianity REMAINS separated and that is WHY it is weak.

To make it even simpler -

That may be what the West fears. If Christian powers would stop attacking thier own people and fellow citizens, it would have far more support and less opposition.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
This demographic and cultural profile cannot be applied to Jews since they are not bent on conversions. It applies purely to Islam and Christianity.
The answer is purely demographic and on weaknesses of Christianity because of its devision, it has NOTHING to do with peace or war.

That is true, Christianity and Islam are the "evangelists" who focus on converting others, and those who refuse will be met with either violence, oppression, harassment, or penalization of some sort.

Jews, at this point, want everyone to leave them alone. They have been the victim of almost every other culture, and I think at the era, they just want to live thier lives. They have practically been met with violence in almost every nation they occupied.

I agree with you, Lil B, that Peace and War have nothing to do with the popularity of Christianity and Islam.

Christianity and Islam are their core, are not taught to fear war, infact, they are taught to anticipate war. They are taught to embrace conflict as a necessity and solution. Ofcourse, this cannot apply to ALL Christians and Muslims, but the Bible and Quran teach such things, and when talking about religion, you consider the practice AND the source of beleif.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
There are just as many divisions within Islam as there is in Christianity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_Islam
Where as Christian argue, Islam kill each other.

Yes.

One thing Muslims don't question are Muhammad, Qur'an and Allah. Christians question their God, Jesus (some blieve he was a prophet other that he was a God, other that he was a son of God)

Some believe Pope is the (whatever the pope was supposed to be ''infallible''?) others don't. Some pray different ways...its all mixed up.

At the end of the day, when two Muslims from different schools get together, they will pray the same way, they will say the same prayer and do it in the same language.

When two Christians from different denominations get together - well, I don't know if it would be THAT friendly.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
There is not much debate between Muslims on doctrine. Most conflict between Muslims are centered around territory and law, as well as resources, while Christians are divided between Biblical interpretations.

Most Muslims will agree on thier doctrine however, and any dispute as to what the Quran says is very minor, well according to my knowledge.

That doesn't exactly give me a "warm and fuzzy" feeling inside, Muslims in general are far more strict than Christians are. Not that I fear the spread of Islam, since it is already the World's Second Largest Religion, however, Islam (via the Quran) leaves far less room for new ideas, while Christianity has evolved and progressed at a MUCH faster rate.

I do know a few Muslims (younger generation Muslims) who are vastly open minded, but coincidently they grew up around Christians and Athiests in the West.

That may be what the West fears. If Christian powers would stop attacking thier own people and fellow citizens, it would have far more support and less opposition.

That is true, Christianity and Islam are the "evangelists" who focus on converting others, and those who refuse will be met with either violence, oppression, harassment, or penalization of some sort.

Jews, at this point, want everyone to leave them alone. They have been the victim of almost every other culture, and I think at the era, they just want to live thier lives. They have practically been met with violence in almost every nation they occupied.

I agree with you, Lil B, that Peace and War have nothing to do with the popularity of Christianity and Islam.

Christianity and Islam are their core, are not taught to fear war, infact, they are taught to [b]anticipate war. They are taught to embrace conflict as a necessity and solution. Ofcourse, this cannot apply to ALL Christians and Muslims, but the Bible and Quran teach such things, and when talking about religion, you consider the practice AND the source of beleif. [/B]

Yes.

You guys in America have a more strong identity - an American identity - which is good. I doubt Islam can as easily cross over that, as it can over European identity. (which is sort of less existent)

And yes, you're right. It is percisely that which West fears. Or rather what France, Germany, Belgium, UK and Spain fear.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Yes.

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Originally posted by lil bitchiness
You guys in America have a more strong identity - an American identity - which is good. I doubt Islam can as easily cross over that, as it can over European identity. (which is sort of less existent)

Yes and No

We are still very divided among race, not to the max, but in terms of immigration policy, between republicans and democrats, between the races, we are still at odds.

"The American Identity" is very interchangable, and not a solid identity yet, at least not in my opinion.

However, you are right, Islam is going to have a massively hard time penetrating, as Islam is already under much scrutiny in the West.

Like South America, Europe is very divided between nations, I beleive, France and England still don't like eachother very much, Italy and Cicily in thier minor conflicts, Ireland and Scottland still having thier conflicts with England as well.....South American nations are in the same immature competition as well, beleive me.

Since United States is One Nation in the end, we are kinda forced to get along lol

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
And yes, you're right. It is percisely that which West fears. Or rather what France, Germany, Belgium, UK and Spain fear.

I remember reading up on the French Actress, Bridgette Bardot, and the book she wrote attacking Muslims and Homosexuals in general.

Kinda scares me when a famous Icon of her status spreads this kind of idealogy.

actually, if you wanna look at muslim mentality of not questioning. just look at posts bu maham, the other dude who writes lengthy replies, and fatima{although much less in this case}. youll FEAL a difference in their voices u wont see even in jia. its more STUBBORNESS and close mindedness than anything.

but not just that, its never having KNOWN of other views then their ownd{ethnocentrism} to begin with as opposed to jia whose atleast credited with having known of the opposite questions etc which question the foundations of the relegion. im much of the muslim world, it is taken for granted that quran/allah/prohphet/islam is right.

most people think that the non muslims are truly blind idiots who have never created a logical counterargument to islam as it is infalliable. they are just thought to be "ignorant evil people" who willingly, due to their evil mentality, disbelieve in the quran/allah/islam knowing full well that they are wrong.

that probably why muslims will dodge a question as it is to them, insignificant and not worthy of answering. this is especially true of people in india/pakistan/kashmir/rural iran/afghanistan/saudia/the traditional areas of uae/rural undevelped muslims african countries. they are RAISED to be brainwashed and ethnocentric.

most have never truly had the freedom of thought to even contemplate that "is my belief true" or "how come the relegion says this and sumthing diferent happens in the real world?". infcat most have not even read the quran or hadith in a language they understand.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
most have not even read the quran or hadith in a language they understand.

Excellent and VERY vital point.

Why do Muslims other than Arabs pray to Arab God, speak Arab language, dress like Arabs, have Arab names...is the most vital question they should ask themselves.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
actually, if you wanna look at muslim mentality of not questioning. just look at posts bu maham, the other dude who writes lengthy replies, and fatima{although much less in this case}. youll FEAL a difference in their voices u wont see even in jia. its more STUBBORNESS and close mindedness than anything.

but not just that, its never having KNOWN of other views then their ownd{ethnocentrism} to begin with as opposed to jia whose atleast credited with having known of the opposite questions etc which question the foundations of the relegion. im much of the muslim world, it is taken for granted that quran/allah/prohphet/islam is right.

most people think that the non muslims are truly blind idiots who have never created a logical counterargument to islam as it is infalliable. they are just thought to be "ignorant evil people" who willingly, due to their evil mentality, disbelieve in the quran/allah/islam knowing full well that they are wrong.

that probably why muslims will dodge a question as it is to them, insignificant and not worthy of answering. this is especially true of people in india/pakistan/kashmir/rural iran/afghanistan/saudia/the traditional areas of uae/rural undevelped muslims african countries. they are RAISED to be brainwashed and ethnocentric.

most have never truly had the freedom of thought to even contemplate that "is my belief true" or "how come the relegion says this and sumthing diferent happens in the real world?". infcat most have not even read the quran or hadith in a language they understand.

That is the impatience I have with the majority of Islam.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Oh great. Here comes a Islamophile apologetic, ready to shit his pants defending something noone critisised.

Hmmm, well it is good to see that since I was last here your manner of addressing other posters has gotten... more vicious. Are you drinking the same water Marchello is? Not, of course, that I would compare your viciousness on certain subjects to his. You at least know how to use the quote function.

And don't be so quick to jump in - if I am not mistaken I seemed to be indicating in my post that Islam, radical Islam is indeed a dangerous focal point of a large number of angry people. Maybe, my dear moderator, you would care to point out where I was being an "Islamophile apologetic"? Were I indicated a belief it was being criticised?

To make it even more simpler for you (since you either have problem with comprehantion or you haven't read the whole thread)

Actually I read the thread, and I can't help but notice it was you who raised the whole Muslim thing in a thread someone started to discuss his disappointment in the nastiness that exists between Christian factions so that you could once again go on about the threat Islam poses. As such I was taking this on a slight tangent because I thought, this being a discussion forum, that I could explore the root of Islams power and unity. Forgive me if I was wrong and if, in some sort of Fascist fashion, any discussion of the matter beyond "I agree totally" is frowned upon these days.

You stated about the unity of Islam, I asked about why people are unified in it - is Islam the beginning and the end, or is it only unified as long as it has something/is able to focus its followers anger on larger things because they want someone to blame?

My answer is purely demographic and on weaknesses of Christianity because of its devision, it has NOTHING to do with peace or war.

Read the whole thread. Its about the strength of one ideology over the other. In this case Islam over Christianity.

And read my post and you will realise that it was not directly about that question. It was a general question (which I notice you have failed to answer) as to are there factors that give Islam its drawing and unifying power? Kind of which came first - chicken or the egg (only not nearly as cyclic)

I did mention, not directly in regard to your post the fact division, large violent division exists within Islam but is often less noticeable as it is either suppressed by the powers, or because Islam is able to deliver obvious, large targets for the anger of its followers to be focused on before internal divisions crop up (like the US, Israel) - but once again the main question I was asking is:

Do you believe Islam is the sole source of this hate and anger (ie Islam came first), or do you see that radical Islam is simply profiting from anger and discontent within the population (ie angry people before).

If then, to bring it back to your question of unity - if Islam was not present would these people be angels, or would they more likely find another avenue for their anger (think, in historical terms, African militias drawn along racial/political lines, political parties such as Nationalist socialists to Asian Communists that drew and focused popular unrest etc). Radical Islam can focus its followers because they want to be focused, they want a target for their grievances. Attack the cause of these grievances and Islam looses a great deal of its ability to direct its followers anger - it can't say "You are hungry because of Americans, you are worse of because of Jews" if they are not hungry. etc.

To hammer home the point that I am looking at your post: "Its about the strength of one ideology over the other" - the question is, if that Ideology was removed would it solve the problems, or would people find direction with other ideologies? Is Christianity "weaker" then Islam because it is a weaker ideology, or is it because ones followers are better off and less angry and thus don't have a unifying threat rammed down their throat while the other attracts many followers by saying "you are suffering, listen to us and we can show you were to point your guns to make a "Islamic paradise on earth"?

True, but Islam isn't doing much to make anything better, in fact, it further encourage the violence. On top of that, it gives another reason to remain disunified from people of other cultures and faiths.

True, but then that is the problem. Regret brought up a good point with the question of us vs. them. Islam of this type wants to ratchet up the sense of divisiveness because it means the ground root causes of its followers discontent wont be readily fixed. A self perpetuating cycle.

If we all had a lot of money, we'd hate each other less, and learn more. Poverty is the source of all crimes, ignorance is the source of all pain, and selfishness is the source of all evil.

Yes. Christianity has slipped in those nations with good education, career prospects and where people usually have enough food. Politics, religions of envy and anger, which is what radical Islam has plenty of, is strong only so long as its followers are an unhappy bunch. Tackle the issues at the bottom, and you start detracting from Radical Islams unity.

I want people to be happy here now on Earth, not after they die.

I agree entirely. As they say "you can't take it with you" - I don't think there is an afterlife, so if you don't live a happy, full life on earth, then it is simply a life wasted.