Achilles(Troy) vs King Leonidas(300)

Originally posted by Hercules
Achilles threw it at a rider who was a good 400 yards away and moving at speed and hit him right in the head taking him off his mount.

That shows a degree of skill, accuracy and power that Leonidas didn't match throughout 300.

Hector remarks that he had never seen a spear thrown like that and Hector was a great warrior of many campaigns, a seasoned Veteran.

Apart from the Immortals the Persian army was cannon fodder, the Trojan army showed a much greater level of skill and training than the bulk of the persians, they after all forced the Achieans from their walls and forced them to retreat.

The Athenians were more powerful than the Achieans, and they couldn't beat the bulk of Xerxes army.

Achilles might be more accurate than Leonidas, but thats all, Leonidas throws harder and faster judging on the damage dealt to their targets.

Leonidas shield bashed so hard that it blew soldiers into mid air. Achilles can't match that.

Originally posted by King_Cold
You don't realize that if Achilles was in Leonidas' position he would have died fighting the calvary units in the first battle scene. And he wouldn't stand a chance against the immortals.

Achilles took down only light infantry units a big dumb guy, and one well trained Prince.

Leonidas took down calvary units, light infantry, inhuman monsters, and Hubris who had super strength!

Its hard to compare Achilles' enemies and Leonidas' enemies because the 300 had much much better fight scenes than Troy. But Xerxes army was armed with better weapons simply because it was long after the battle of Troy.

Froma techincal, coregraphy and stunt point of view Troy's fight scenes were superior.

Hector vs Achilles was pure poetry in motion, two fine tuned fighters matching each other point for point, and trying to find a weakness in the other.

Only from the perspective of "OMG that is TEH AWESOME LUCK AT TEH BLOOD!!" is 300 superior...

Originally posted by Hercules
Froma techincal, coregraphy and stunt point of view Troy's fight scenes were superior.

Hector vs Achilles was pure poetry in motion, two fine tuned fighters matching each other point for point, and trying to find a weakness in the other.

Only from the perspective of "OMG that is TEH AWESOME LUCK AT TEH BLOOD!!" is 300 superior...

True, its a matter of opinion.

But Leonidas was graphically enhanced to make him capable of more than Achilles was in a non graphically enhanced movie. That is not a matter of opinion.

Originally posted by King_Cold
The Athenians were more powerful than the Achieans, and they couldn't beat the bulk of Xerxes army.

Achilles might be more accurate than Leonidas, but thats all, Leonidas throws harder and faster.

You know when I say "Achean" it was Homers term for all Greeks right?

You also realise that to throw a spear at a greater distance and still get a kill means more strength is need to propell it also right?

Athens was a naval power, their land armies weren't of the same skill as say the Spartans, they actually abandoned Athens to the Persians and provided 180 of the 366 ships involved in the battle of Salamis where the Greek City states crushed Xerses fleet.

After that Xerses returned home and left Mardonius with depending on your source 70,000 to 300,000 men.

They were defeated at the battle of Plataea by a combined Greek force of again depending on source 38,000 to 110,000 men.

It is said that the Spartans sent 45,000 men, the largest Spartan force ever assembled (and referenced at the end of 300) 5,000 Spartiates, 5,000 Perioikoi and 35,000 Helots.

Truly, before you start to debate history, consider who you are debating with before you start to throw "facts" at people, the Athenians never attempted to stop the Persians by themselves, it would have been folly to do so, they united with the other states to stand up to them.

Just as at Troy King Agamemnon united the Achean kingdoms to fight the Trojans...

Originally posted by Hercules
You know when I say "Achean" it was Homers term for all Greeks right?

You also realise that to throw a spear at a greater distance and still get a kill means more strength is need to propell it also right?

Athens was a naval power, their land armies weren't of the same skill as say the Spartans, they actually abandoned Athens to the Persians and provided 180 of the 366 ships involved in the battle of Salamis where the Greek City states crushed Xerses fleet.

After that Xerses returned home and left Mardonius with depending on your source 70,000 to 300,000 men.

They were defeated at the battle of Plataea by a combined Greek force of again depending on source 38,000 to 110,000 men.

It is said that the Spartans sent 45,000 men, the largest Spartan force ever assembled (and referenced at the end of 300) 5,000 Spartiates, 5,000 Perioikoi and 35,000 Helots.

Truly, before you start to debate history, consider who you are debating with before you start to throw "facts" at people, the Athenians never attempted to stop the Persians by themselves, it would have been folly to do so, they united with the other states to stand up to them.

Just as at Troy King Agamemnon united the Achean kingdoms to fight the Trojans...

Even so, this is an enhanced Dark Horse character VS a not so enhanced greatest warrior ever.

Leonidas was capable of more thanks to the way that they made 300 and the way that they made Troy.

Leonidas blew people back with a shield bash, Achilles didn't, Leonidas blew people back with his spear, Achilles didn't. And Leonidas fought a deadlier variety of troops.

And the Spartans were out numbered 3 to 1 were as Agamemnon wasn't.

You also realise that to throw a spear at a greater distance and still get a kill means more strength is need to propell it also right?

Leonidas could throw further but with less accuracy.

Originally posted by King_Cold
Even so, this is an enhanced Dark Horse character VS a not so enhanced greatest warrior ever.

Leonidas was capable of more thanks to the way that they made 300 and the way that they made Troy.

Leonidas blew people back with a shield bash, Achilles didn't, Leonidas blew people back with his spear, Achilles didn't. And Leonidas fought a deadlier variety of troops.

And the Spartans were out numbered 3 to 1 were as Agamemnon wasn't.

I haven't seen anything in either film to show that Leonidas was capable of more.

You seem to be basing your entire debate on Leonidas being physicaly stronger. Strength alone does not win a fight, Ajax was stronger than Hector, Hector still beat him (in the movie at least)

However, your only evidence is a shield bash it seems and a spear throw, considering Achilles fighting style being a lot different than Leonidas, using his speed and skill to dodge and antcipate his enemy then striking with one blow for the kill, you can't really gauge his physical strength.

Yes the Spartans were outnumbered (greater than 3 to 1 if you consider one million against 300) the Trojans were also outnumbered and still used superior tactics to beat the Acheans from their walls, so it can be argued that Achilles faced opponents of greater skill (not counting the Immortals)

Show me your proof that Leonidas can throw a spear longer and harder than Achilles, cause I have seen both movies and don't see how or where you came to that conclusion.

Achilles jump stab through the neck all the way to leonidas heart move FTW.

Originally posted by Hercules
I haven't seen anything in either film to show that Leonidas was capable of more.

You seem to be basing your entire debate on Leonidas being physicaly stronger. Strength alone does not win a fight, Ajax was stronger than Hector, Hector still beat him (in the movie at least)

However, your only evidence is a shield bash it seems and a spear throw, considering Achilles fighting style being a lot different than Leonidas, using his speed and skill to dodge and antcipate his enemy then striking with one blow for the kill, you can't really gauge his physical strength.

Yes the Spartans were outnumbered (greater than 3 to 1 if you consider one million against 300) the Trojans were also outnumbered and still used superior tactics to beat the Acheans from their walls, so it can be argued that Achilles faced opponents of greater skill (not counting the Immortals)

Show me your proof that Leonidas can throw a spear longer and harder than Achilles, cause I have seen both movies and don't see how or where you came to that conclusion.

In 300 at the battle of Plateau the Spartans were out numbered 3 to 1 and still won, something that the Trojans couldn't do in Troy.

Leonidas through faster and harder because he blew his targets off their feet and Achilles didn't. Leonidas blew two people off their feet with one spear. Yes Achilles had better fighting skill than Leonidas, but that alone wouldn't make deference in a fight, only strength, speed and experience would. And Leonidas out powers Achilles in all of thoughs.

Originally posted by Caps Conscience
Achilles jump stab through the neck all the way to leonidas heart move FTW.

Leonidas would block that with his shield like Hector did.

Originally posted by Caps Conscience
Achilles jump stab through the neck all the way to leonidas heart move FTW.

Originally posted by King_Cold
In 300 at the battle of Plateau the Spartans were out numbered 3 to 1 and still won, something that the Trojans couldn't do in Troy.

Leonidas through faster and harder because he blew his targets off their feet and Achilles didn't. Leonidas blew two people off their feet with one spear. Yes Achilles had better fighting skill than Leonidas, but that alone wouldn't make deference in a fight, only strength, speed and experience would. And Leonidas out powers Achilles in all of thoughs.

I just gave you a breakdown of the forces at Plateau in an earlier post, the COMBINED Greek Forces were outnumbered 3 to 1 not just the Spartans.

The Trojans, beat the Acheans back from there walls and attacked the Greek camp, if it wasn't for Patroclus leading the Mrymidons and inspiring the Acheans to fight and then later when he was killed a parley being called, they would have been driven into the Sea by the Trojans.

If you look at the total Achean forces present at Troy according to Homer's catalogue of ships there were 29 contingents under 46 captains totaling 1,196 ships.

120 men per ship adds up to 142,320 men total in the Achean force. Trojan numbers are lower according to the Trojan battle order in the Illiad there were 16 contingents under 26 leaders.

So the Trojans were outnumbered and fought outside their walls and still beat back and almost defeated the Acheans, only trickery and the death of their greatest warrior defeated them.

So it can still be argued that Achilles fought the superior opponents...

So you are basing some spear throws at relatively short range as a mark of superior strength because it knocked someone back and speared two men at the same time?

Skill goes a long way in a fight and now all of sudden Leonidas is faster and more experienced?

No proof that Leonidas is faster and as for exprience Achilles was Greeces greatest warrior and if you're going by the movie fought in all Agammenon's campaigns to conquer all Greece.

I would hardly give Leonidas the experience advantage and as for speed, Achilles was fast enough to block attacks from behind him without looking...

Your debate is based entirely on opinion, with no hard or fast evidence to back it up and I would never say you weren't entitled to do so, its only that you claim it to be fact that I'm debating.

Judging the two on showings in their respective films, I gave my breakdown of the fight pages back and I stand by it, Leonidas is good, Achilles is just better and it would be an epic fight which I see Achilles winning.

Originally posted by quanchi112
that crap aint working on leonidas. maybe the jokers in the movie troy but real mean and real armies were in 300.

Real men and real armies, they had demons and monsters fighting for the Persians? 😕

If anything the battles in Troy were a lot more realistic than the battle scenes in 300, one of King Cold's arguments is that Leonidas and co were CGI enhanced.

You back his arguments than make that statement, amazing...

Originally posted by Hercules
I just gave you a breakdown of the forces at Plateau in an earlier post, the COMBINED Greek Forces were outnumbered 3 to 1 not just the Spartans.

The Trojans, beat the Acheans back from there walls and attacked the Greek camp, if it wasn't for Patroclus leading the Mrymidons and inspiring the Acheans to fight and then later when he was killed a parley being called, they would have been driven into the Sea by the Trojans.

If you look at the total Achean forces present at Troy according to Homer's catalogue of ships there were 29 contingents under 46 captains totaling 1,196 ships.

120 men per ship adds up to 142,320 men total in the Achean force. Trojan numbers are lower according to the Trojan battle order in the Illiad there were 16 contingents under 26 leaders.

So the Trojans were outnumbered and fought outside their walls and still beat back and almost defeated the Acheans, only trickery and the death of their greatest warrior defeated them.

So it can still be argued that Achilles fought the superior opponents...

So you are basing some spear throws at relatively short range as a mark of superior strength because it knocked someone back and speared two men at the same time?

Skill goes a long way in a fight and now all of sudden Leonidas is faster and more experienced?

No proof that Leonidas is faster and as for exprience Achilles was Greeces greatest warrior and if you're going by the movie fought in all Agammenon's campaigns to conquer all Greece.

I would hardly give Leonidas the experience advantage and as for speed, Achilles was fast enough to block attacks from behind him without looking...

Your debate is based entirely on opinion, with no hard or fast evidence to back it up and I would never say you weren't entitled to do so, its only that you claim it to be fact that I'm debating.

Judging the two on showings in their respective films, I gave my breakdown of the fight pages back and I stand by it, Leonidas is good, Achilles is just better and it would be an epic fight which I see Achilles winning.

Leonidas was older than Achilles, he lived longer, and killed a giant wolf at a young age with nothing but a sharpened stick, he also punched another Spartan to death at the age of about 11 or 12.

I can't see Achilles accomplishing those feats.

Achilles was obviously much less experienced than Leonidas because of the fact that he was a hot head.

It would be a great battle, but I see Leonidas winning.

Originally posted by Hercules
Real men and real armies, they had demons and monsters fighting for the Persians? 😕

If anything the battles in Troy were a lot more realistic than the battle scenes in 300, one of King Cold's arguments is that Leonidas and co were CGI enhanced.

You back his arguments than make that statement, amazing...

I believe he was quoting Gorgo when she said that only Spartan women give birth to real men.

Originally posted by Hercules

If anything the battles in Troy were a lot more realistic than the battle scenes in 300, one of King Cold's arguments is that Leonidas and co were CGI enhanced.

The only realistic aspect from 300 was the Spartans garb and weaponry. Even considering the abondonment of facts and compromise of facts in exchange for an entertaining movie. I think it is hard to swallow that the over exaggerated Leonidas would topple achilles due to your statement that Troy's battles were much more realistic.

All of this Argument about how Leonidas can hurl a spear further, to me is nonsense. Achillies hurled a spear 100 yards with impossible accuracy. The Spear hit exactly where Achillis meant for it to make contact on the oafs body. Leonidas threw his spear hoping to just make contact.
Saying Achilles is not as fast or strong as an undeniable statement is also absurd. Leonidas stood his ground in battle. Achilles was always moving and running during battle through out the movie of Troy. Leaping the height of a man and plunging a sword directly through the shoulder to puncture the heart just to land and continue running on to the next man takes incredible agility, speed, strength and accuracy. The reason we never saw Achilles standing his ground pounding through onslaughts of soldiers is because he was a far more talented warrior than that. His Skills and fighting ability allowed him to attack his attackers rather than defend against them.
Could Achilles, knock back men with his shield...i dont know why anyone would think he couldnt. He didnt need to, he was to busy cutting the opposition down to need to knock aggressors back in order to gain a foot hold.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
The only realistic aspect from 300 was the Spartans garb and weaponry. Even considering the abondonment of facts and compromise of facts in exchange for an entertaining movie. I think it is hard to swallow that the over exaggerated Leonidas would topple achilles due to your statement that Troy's battles were much more realistic.

All of this Argument about how Leonidas can hurl a spear further, to me is nonsense. Achillies hurled a spear 100 yards with impossible accuracy. The Spear hit exactly where Achillis meant for it to make contact on the oafs body. Leonidas threw his spear hoping to just make contact.
Saying Achilles is not as fast or strong as an undeniable statement is also absurd. Leonidas stood his ground in battle. Achilles was always moving and running during battle through out the movie of Troy. Leaping the height of a man and plunging a sword directly through the shoulder to puncture the heart just to land and continue running on to the next man takes incredible agility, speed, strength and accuracy. The reason we never saw Achilles standing his ground pounding through onslaughts of soldiers is because he was a far more talented warrior than that. His Skills and fighting ability allowed him to attack his attackers rather than defend against them.
Could Achilles, knock back men with his shield...i dont know why anyone would think he couldnt. He didnt need to, he was to busy cutting the opposition down to need to knock aggressors back in order to gain a foot hold.

Like I said before, Achilles is a hot head and is less experienced than Leonidas, Leonidas is also physically stronger, Achilles could never punch some one to death. Leonidas might be faster because he is in better shape, dew to how defined his muscles were.

Achilles just had a better fighting style, and wasn't quite as smart, he also let anger get to him. Leonidas wins.

Originally posted by King_Cold
Like I said before, Achilles is a hot head and is less experienced than Leonidas, Leonidas is also physically stronger, Achilles could never punch some one to death. Leonidas might be faster because he is in better shape, dew to how defined his muscles were.

Achilles just had a better fighting style, and wasn't quite as smart, he also let anger get to him. Leonidas wins.

Are you kidding me. Since when did muscle definition determine how fast someone is? Just because i spend six weeks in the jim jones gym too doesnt mean im going to get any faster. My muscle tone will increase though.

Is punching a man to death supposed to be an incredible feat? 😕

I didnt see leonidas running while fighting, i saw him standing essentially in one place. Achilles fighting style in Troy showcases his stamina and how agile he is. INstead of basic spear and sword strikes, Achilles used his entire body as a weapon.

What happened when Achilles was overcome by anger in Troy? His fighting became more intense and accurate. Though he may had been consumed by anger, he was still aware enough to feel out Hecter's abilities in battle to defeat him quite easily.

For having such a lowe level of experience It's quite surprising how he and his myrmidons were chosen to spear head the attack on Troy. Achilles was such an experienced and intense warrior, Agamemnon's forces were at a standstill for years, untill Achilles decided to fight again. lack of experience....no sir.

Leonidas' experience got him dead. INstead of retreating with the rest of the Greek forces, he decided to stay and get himself dead. 🙁

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
Are you kidding me. Since when did muscle definition determine how fast someone is? Just because i spend six weeks in the jim jones gym too doesnt mean im going to get any faster. My muscle tone will increase though.

Is punching a man to death supposed to be an incredible feat? 😕

I didnt see leonidas running while fighting, i saw him standing essentially in one place. Achilles fighting style in Troy showcases his stamina and how agile he is. INstead of basic spear and sword strikes, Achilles used his entire body as a weapon.

What happened when Achilles was overcome by anger in Troy? His fighting became more intense and accurate. Though he may had been consumed by anger, he was still aware enough to feel out Hecter's abilities in battle to defeat him quite easily.

For having such a lowe level of experience It's quite surprising how he and his myrmidons were chosen to spear head the attack on Troy. Achilles was such an experienced and intense warrior, Agamemnon's forces were at a standstill for years, untill Achilles decided to fight again. lack of experience....no sir.

Now name some of feats that Leonidas did instead of Achilles.

He killed a wolf with a sharpened stick, Achilles could do that? I don't think so. He punched a kid to death at the age of 11, Achilles couldn't do that at age 11, Leonidas was in better shape, there fore he was faster.

Originally posted by King_Cold
Now name some of feats that Leonidas did instead of Achilles.

He killed a wolf with a sharpened stick, Achilles could do that? I don't think so. He punched a kid to death at the age of 11, Achilles couldn't do that at age 11, Leonidas was in better shape, there fore he was faster.

What evidence are you using to determine he was in better shape? Muscle definition...if so, ive alrady told you that muscle definition means NOTHING. Muscle tone doesnt equal strength or conditioning. If anything i would say that they were both in the prime of their fitness.

Considering that the skeletal structure of an 11 year is still developed and much weaker than an adults. I would say that beating a child to death is even more of a ridiculous feat to mention when questioning which adult version of the two is supoerior. It doesnt take much to beat a man to death with your fists. WHy do you think that Achilles couldnt beat a child to death when he was 11? He was training started at Childhood as well. You or i could beat someone to death.

I'll give him the wolf, but i think that scene was supposed to showcase his lack of fear and abundance of courage other than ability. He did seem to get a bit lucky 😉