Being overmatched in a physical sense by Doom's armor is largely meaningless. The Doctor isn't going to beat up Doom (though Doctor #3's smack-fu was pretty good 😉 ). He's going to come up with a clever way to turn Doom's tech against him, or trick Doom into making a CIS (thus valid) error through Doom's tremendous hubris.
Basically the same way (the accursed) Reed Richards beats Doom in most engagements only with better banter and not so much stretching.
Originally posted by Laminator_X
Being overmatched in a physical sense by Doom's armor is largely meaningless. The Doctor isn't going to beat up Doom (though Doctor #3's smack-fu was pretty good 😉 ). He's going to come up with a clever way to turn Doom's tech against him, or trick Doom into making a CIS (thus valid) error through Doom's tremendous hubris.Basically the same way (the accursed) Reed Richards beats Doom in most engagements only with better banter and not so much stretching.
This is the forums. PIS/CIS are off by default.
The Doctor may very well not try to beat up doom, but the opposite is NOT true. Doom is going to use any and all methods available to vaporize the Doctor on the spot.
You can speculate how the Doctor would "turn doom's tech against him!" (which would be quite a feat, seeing as no one has managed to do this yet) or "take advantage of his hubris!" but coming up with anything remotely specific that would result in a win for the doctor is nearly impossible.
he's facing an opponent who is as smart or smarter than he is, with greater resources, a personal army, and a willingness to kill.
And it's worth noting that Reed usually needs the entire fantastic four to take on Doom, and even that would be totally unthinkable without his powers.
You are mistaken. PIS is invalid, but CIS is a perfectly valid consideration. That's why there's a distinction. The characters are to behave as they typically do as written unless the thread specifies bloodlust or similar. That's why there's a distinction.
Reed and Tony have both subverted Dooms stuff in the past, there's no reason to think the Doctor couldn't. I can't come up with anything specific because I'm not an uber-genius like they are.
Reed and Victor have had plenty of solo matchups over the years, going all the way back to the 60's. They're not usually slugfests, but Reed usually wins.
he's facing an opponent who is as smart or smarter than he is, with greater resources, a personal army, and a willingness to kill.
You just described most of his battles with the Master. He wins those too.
Originally posted by Akuki
Can you really say something is PIS when it is the entire basis of the character? When you're coming up crazy last minute solutions every time your character appears, that's no longer PIS, that's a legitimate battle tactic.
it's not a legitimate battle tactic if you can't say what the tactic is. You can't simply state that Batman could take Thanos with prep because "oh, he'll think of something!"
You also can't claim a win based on the assumption that the other character will just make a mistake and give you an opening.
Tell you what- propose at least two scenarios where the Doctor could conceivably, conclusively win here.
You are mistaken. PIS is invalid, but CIS is a perfectly valid consideration. That's why there's a distinction. The characters are to behave as they typically do as written unless the thread specifies bloodlust or similar. That's why there's a distinction.
ok, fair enough. we'll assume that both characters are operating as they usually do.
Reed and Tony have both subverted Dooms stuff in the past, there's no reason to think the Doctor couldn't. I can't come up with anything specific because I'm not an uber-genius like they are.
Uh, the Doctor isn't on Reed or Tony's level either. and keep in mind he's working pretty much from scratch here. A sonic screwdriver and the Tardis aren't going to be sufficient to match the kind of stuff doom has hidden in his closet. (helloooo dimensional banishment!)
Reed and Victor have had plenty of solo matchups over the years, going all the way back to the 60's. They're not usually slugfests, but Reed usually wins.
There have been just as many where the FF has come within a hair of getting their ass handed to them. Reed taking on Doom 1 on 1 and winning is HIGHLY unusual, which is kind of the point of the fantastic four. they work best operating as a team, and it's Doom's inability to do this that usually works against him.
That's not to say he hasn't/can't take out superteams though, because he can.
Originally posted by Akuki
Can you really say something is PIS when it is the entire basis of the character? When you're coming up crazy last minute solutions every time your character appears, that's no longer PIS, that's a legitimate battle tactic.
There's a line to be drawn there. Simply being able to improvise well under pressure isn't PIS.
Having every guard who ever locks you up fail to take away your sonic screwdriver is PIS.
In any kind of stand up battle, Doom certainly wins, for the same reasons that he is able to stand up to whole teams and such.
The Doctor could win by not allowing the conflict to be framed as such, something at which he's proven successful many many times. As soon as Doom captures the Doctor and brings him into his audience chamber with the globe, enormous fireplace and big drapes and starts verbally fencing with the Doctor while sipping from his ostentatious jewell-encrusted wine goblet (you can so tell he's neuvous-riche), he's begun to play the Doctor's game. The Doctor is very good at his own game.
Reed usually beats Victor at non-physical contests because he is the more creative and dynamic thinker of the two. Doom is able to achieve more over time because he is the superior procedural and analytical thinker. The Doctor is much like an ADD version of Reed, only moreso.
Our main difference seems to be that you think that when it comes to the game of cat-and-also-cat that the Doctor likes to play, Doom will overmatch him in terms of intellect (your describing him as "not on reed and tony's level" for instance). I think not.
Reed, Tony, Victor, and a few others represent "Peak Human" intellect. The Doctor is beyond that. Peak Time Lord > Peak Human.
The Doctor simply conceptually never loses. Doom loses all the darn time.
The Doictor himself is a bad mix for any genre because he is, as I say, a trump card. Put him against alien, mad scientist or God, he just wins. That's the whole point of his character.
Put him in a scenario where 'he' doesn't win and you are basically no longer talking about the Doctor.
Incidentally it does not even vaguely fit these defintions of PIS or CIS. It is simply true that the Doctor always- ALWAYS- finds a way. That's categorical.
I don't know that I'd go that far, Genesis of the Daleks, or even The Unearthly Child for example. There are times when he doesn't so much "win" as "survive." Many times the best he can do is a phyrric "victory" that averts some far worse thing from happenning.
Lots of characters win all the time because their name's on the story. I do get what you're saying though. The Doctor finding a solutiobn is like Cap never giving up. It's a part of the character's myth.
Except he did win in Genesis- he realised what a bad move it would have been. He wasn't defeated; he voluntarily chose to do what he did.
Unearthly Child wasn't against an enemy; it was just a string of events.
As indeed you say- it is part of the myth. The Doctor is conceptually just a person who always helps, always saves, always finds a way, always wins, never fails. As such he's an appalling person to use in any versus match. All the more so because you simply cannot gauge his powers- the Doctor is a leveller. he finds a maniac with a gun just as difficult as the source of all evil in the cosmos or the creators of the Universe.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
The Doctor simply conceptually never loses. Doom loses all the darn time.The Doictor himself is a bad mix for any genre because he is, as I say, a trump card. Put him against alien, mad scientist or God, he just wins. That's the whole point of his character.
Put him in a scenario where 'he' doesn't win and you are basically no longer talking about the Doctor.
Incidentally it does not even vaguely fit these defintions of PIS or CIS. It is simply true that the Doctor always- ALWAYS- finds a way. That's categorical.
The Doctor won't lose because he hasn't lost so far?
That logic doesn't work here mate. Nor does "the point of his character is to win" work as a valid argument. Things like that just roll right under PIS. Or do you actually believe that Squirrel Girl is stronger than Thanos?
Originally posted by llagrok
The Doctor won't lose because he hasn't lost so far?That logic doesn't work here mate. Nor does "the point of his character is to win" work as a valid argument. Things like that just roll right under PIS. Or do you actually believe that Squirrel Girl is stronger than Thanos?
Squirrel Girl is awesome! She'd be SvF except that she pulls off upset victories every time. 😄
But back on subject. Ushgarak is right from a literary perspective, but that's not really how we operate here. OTOH I think the Doctor could turn Castle Doom to his advantage using the all the crazy tech that Doom has the place riddled with. He sets various techno-tyrants up to be foisted by their own petards far more often than he uses the TARDIS somehow.