Originally posted by Gideon
You misunderstand. I am arguing that only in rare circumstances should the "lesser" opponent's victory (in several cases, brought on by plot-device or dramatization) constitute in all versus matches. Mace Windu is weaker than Darth Sidious; this is nearly irrefutable. The fact remains that Sidious initially held the advantage, he was faster and stronger -- only delving into Vaapad allowed Mace to duel the Sith Lord on even terms. And then, using the shatterpoint charism was Mace able to exploit a weakness in Palpatine's fighting form. But never throughout the fight was he ever stronger than Palpatine.Still, Mace's Vaapad and shatterpoint charism will be available to him in every duel. Only in cases such as these do the "lesser" opponents have a nearly-guarenteed victory.
Your points are valid and considered. However, you should also note that "stronger" is a relative term, and shouldn't be used to determine the outcome of battle. You've said it yourself that "weaker" or "less skilled" opponents can win, and often do. Considering this, I just believe people shouldn't look at quotes before they look at feats, skills, and accomplishments. I never really doubted that Maul was more skilled than Obi-Wan. My true conflict was with this Anoon Bondara character, in which one quote and one fight versus someone who was defeated by a Padawan, even given the circumstances of their fight, is now being considered to be one of the top 5 fighters in the PT era. I find it ridiculous that quotes determine character strengths that seem illogical when viewing the number one canon source, movies.
Obi-Wan Kenobi, on the other hand, did not duel Darth Maul on even terms. He was the lesser and was only spared because of Maul's arrogance, and that Kenobi performed an unpredictable move. Never was he close to being as skilled as Maul himself; the Phantom Menace novelization directly states that Obi-Wan is not as skilled or as powerful as Qui-Gon is, and we saw how comfortably Maul defeated Qui-Gon.In a contest of skill, Maul wins. But declaring that he will always allow his arrogance to overcome his sense is fallacious.
But you still have to take that into account in ALL of his fights, not just some, nor can you shrug it off as a one-time deal. Your points are correct, but I'm merely stating that we must look at the most important source if we're going to make assumptions about characters in fights. We shouldn't be so quick to say, "Oh, Lucas calls him one of the deadliest apprentices ever," therefore he must easily be more skilled in combat than people such as Sion and Ventress.
No. What defeats the purpose of debating is when we automatically conclude that an event that happened once constitutes the result for every hypothetical match. I mentioned two confrontations in which the technical "lesser" opponent managed to overcome the "greater". The first was Mace Windu versus Darth Sidious, the second was Obi-Wan Kenobi versus Darth Maul. The first scenario involves two very powerful techniques that will not change no matter what environment; Mace will always have access to Vaapad and the shatterpoint charism, thus it is highly logical that he stands an excellent chance -- if not guarenteed -- of defeating Sidious. The second situation involves Maul's defeat at Kenobi's hands primarily due to his own ego. To say that he will always be done in by his own hand is a rather silly conclusion.
As I said above, you make a good point, and I commend you. Just because a character is stronger or more skilled doesn't equate victory, we have to take into account all things. Normally, I consider Dooku easily one of the best duelists in the PT era, period. However, he lost to Yoda. Why? Because Yoda is an extremely unconventional enemy. Dooku uses a fencing form based on certain refined strike zones on an opponent, and involved feigns and parries. Yoda fights with a style that allows him to move extremely fast, which when coupled with his small size, makes Dooku's form completely useless given he can't pinpoint a target on Yoda, and can't parry any of his strikes while moving. Does this make Dooku a bad duelist? No, but because of the nature of each character's fighting style, we must conclude Yoda will win, as he did.
I don't believe we should rank characters by strength, stating things like Yoda is number one, followed by Sids, followed by Mace, followed by..etc. Rankings mean nothing, as each character may have a specific advantage over the other that allows them to win, despite their opponent being "stronger."