Cagemate rats can feel each other's pain

Originally posted by dadudemon
Are you arguing with yourself? (To make it worse, in text form.)

What you just did there was answer a question about souls by talking about disease spreading...do you even realize that?

You basically said that an object weighs 34 inches.

Here is another example:

Child: Mommy, why does daddy like to eat liver?
Mom: Well sweetheart, dad goes to work to pay for the house so we have a place to stay.

Now do you understand why people give you "guff"?

This is an open forum, if you want to think someone is arguing with themselves, go ahead.

And no, I didn't say if rats have a soul, usually people think of soul as consciousness, and consciousness seperates us from what they argue as the "lower" sub-humans, as the lower subhumans seem to be in one mode and careless on how that effects others or the object AND MAINLY OTHER LIFE FORMS.

Originally posted by Council#13
I think there was something somewhere saying that plants also know when you're hurting a plant nearby. It's nothing conscious, probably more of a self-preservation thing.

http://www.islamicconcern.com/plants.asp

Originally posted by inimalist

If you run, your motor cortex activates the communication with your leg muscles. If you watch someone run, your motor cortex has the exact same activation, however the action is surpressed. Basically, to interpret something as "running", your brain must make the same response as if you were to run. Now, replace "run" with any emotion. This ignores the obvious social dimension to emotions, which makes it somewhat different for emotions than it does for movement, but the idea is still the same.

you need to answer this point before you go any further

this would indicate that the phenomena you are describing occurs at a "sub-conscious" level and that an animal can still be "sub human" [I'd love to know where you think you got these terms from] and possess the ability to communicate emotion or even for "emotional contageon"

our consciousness gives us an explanation for our emotional state. It happens with about a half second delay from the experience of the emotion.

emotion -> 500ms -> conscious explanation for why we are experiencing the emotion

emotion does NOT require consciousness

Originally posted by inimalist
you need to answer this point before you go any further

this would indicate that the phenomena you are describing occurs at a "sub-conscious" level and that an animal can still be "sub human" [I'd love to know where you think you got these terms from] and possess the ability to communicate emotion or even for "emotional contageon"

our consciousness gives us an explanation for our emotional state. It happens with about a half second delay from the experience of the emotion.

emotion -> 500ms -> conscious explanation for why we are experiencing the emotion

emotion does NOT require consciousness

what comes first, the chicken or the egg?

your same equation could be thought of as:
conscious -> emotion -> 500ms -> thought

the lower subhumans seem to be in one mode and careless on how that effects OTHER LIFE FORMS

Originally posted by Czarina_Czarina

your same equation could be thought of as:
conscioius -> emotion -> 500ms -> thought

actually, it really can't

there are 30 years worth of excellent and pretty much irrefutable experimentation that shows many things.

For instance, were I to monitor the activity in your pre-motor cortex, I would know when you were going to move before you did. Notice, it is not that I know you are going to move before you move, it is that I know you are going to move before you become aware of your desire to move.

The same can be done for simple yes or no questions.

People can be put into emotional states through the exposure to information that is unavailable to conscious awareness. In cases like this, people are very hard pressed and will come up with exceptionally elaborate stories to explain their emotional state, even though it may be as apparent a stimuli as a naked woman presented only to one eye.

At this point I will say that, barring some strange study or experiment that you are privy to and the rest of us not, that you are misguided on your understanding of human and animal cognition.

The only concilation I can offer you is that the vast majority of people think the same way you do, in fact our brain is set up to make us feel that way (ie, we are naturally dualists). It is very counter-intuitive to think that our consciousness is not really what it seems like, and could actually not even exist, but the fact that it doesn't sit right intellectually is not an argument against empirical findings.

Originally posted by inimalist
actually, it really can't

there are 30 years worth of excellent and pretty much irrefutable experimentation that shows many things.

For instance, were I to monitor the activity in your pre-motor cortex, I would know when you were going to move before you did. Notice, it is not that I know you are going to move before you move, it is that I know you are going to move before you become aware of your desire to move.

The same can be done for simple yes or no questions.

People can be put into emotional states through the exposure to information that is unavailable to conscious awareness. In cases like this, people are very hard pressed and will come up with exceptionally elaborate stories to explain their emotional state, even though it may be as apparent a stimuli as a naked woman presented only to one eye.

At this point I will say that, barring some strange study or experiment that you are privy to and the rest of us not, that you are misguided on your understanding of human and animal cognition.

The only concilation I can offer you is that the vast majority of people think the same way you do, in fact our brain is set up to make us feel that way (ie, we are naturally dualists). It is very counter-intuitive to think that our consciousness is not really what it seems like, and could actually not even exist, but the fact that it doesn't sit right intellectually is not an argument against empirical findings.

empirical findings are just observations, if you observe something long enough, it's becomes an empiricial perspective.

and, i think consciousness comes first, then emotion, and then MOTION (speed of energy) and then THOUGHT, we are motivated by our conscious to have emotion and thought and then, maybe, action.

Originally posted by Czarina_Czarina
empirical findings are just observations, if you observe something long enough, it's becomes an empiricial perspective.

and, i think consciousness comes first, then emotion, and then MOTION (speed of energy) and then THOUGHT, we are motivated by our conscious to have emotion and thought and then, maybe, action.

fine

if your position is defined by anti-science, I have nothing more to say

please never bring up your ideas in a scientific discussion and I wont hold your spirituality back with facts

Originally posted by inimalist
fine

if your position is defined by anti-science, I have nothing more to say

please never bring up your ideas in a scientific discussion and I wont hold your spirituality back with facts

it's your right to think whatever, and if i want to add mystic words to science, well, who cares?

that link is scientific, and used the word "empath"...and empath is moreso spiritual in terms rather then scientific.

Originally posted by Czarina_Czarina
and if i want to add mystic words to science, well, who cares?

I, as well as most other people who are concerned with the science of human neurology and cognition, care very deeply.

Not because you believe it, but because there are people who are going to read what you post, and what I have posted, and since people are inherently ignornat, will likely think that there is an iota of truth to what you say. I feel as though I have failed those people, but that may just be a desire to martyr myself.

Originally posted by inimalist
I, as well as most other people who are concerned with the science of human neurology and cognition, care very deeply.

Not because you believe it, but because there are people who are going to read what you post, and what I have posted, and since people are inherently ignornat, will likely think that there is an iota of truth to what you say. I feel as though I have failed those people, but that may just be a desire to martyr myself.

You haven't martyred yourself. And, I doubt people are inherently ignorant, I guess I don't start off thinking less of another individual, making that person work to prove me wrong - causing them to work hard to remove a stigma placed on them, that's like putting them at (negative) -1,000 before they have a chance, if they bother my liberty or try to play games or try to bully my thoughts of myself, i ignore them and if it happens a lot in a particular culture, it'll be an emperical observation and i'll end up critical of that culture. I rather start at 0 and have faith. If they take the time to read our conversation, they'll probably read the link too, and draw their own conclusions.

Originally posted by Czarina_Czarina
You haven't martyred yourself. And, I doubt people are inherently ignorant, I guess I don't start off thinking less of another individual, making that person work to prove me wrong, if they take the time to read our conversation, they'll probably read the link too, and draw their own conclusions.

lol, maybe not inherently ignorant, but our brains aren't made to understand "true" things, only things that we want to understand, and normally will believe things that make us feel good.

the thing is, that this conversation and that link are misleading. There is no good reason to believe what you do aside from the happiness it brings and the philosophical/spiritual feelings. As far as truth goes, I would reccomend people not read this conversation

Originally posted by inimalist
lol, maybe not inherently ignorant, but our brains aren't made to understand "true" things, only things that we want to understand, and normally will believe things that make us feel good.

the thing is, that this conversation and that link are misleading. There is no good reason to believe what you do aside from the happiness it brings and the philosophical/spiritual feelings. As far as truth goes, I would reccomend people not read this conversation

Censorship based on your values or definition of truth. Wow.

you are free to say what you want

but in science we worry about something called quality control

everyone can have their opinion, not everyone can be correct.

Originally posted by Council#13
I think there was something somewhere saying that plants also know when you're hurting a plant nearby. It's nothing conscious, probably more of a self-preservation thing.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Yes, there have been some experiments in regards to that.

AND the Mythbusters proved it wrong...they busted that "myth". They even did the old polygraph experiment.

In other words...lies and misinterpreted data. In order for an experiment to be called legitimate, the results MUST be duplicate-able.

Originally posted by dadudemon
AND the Mythbusters proved it wrong...they busted that "myth". They even did the old polygraph experiment.

In other words...lies and misinterpreted data. In order for an experiment to be called legitimate, the results MUST be duplicate-able.

not to sound brass, but most people already know that much about science and needing to reduplicate findings. 😮

Originally posted by inimalist
mirror neurons.

Is this not why we yawn when we see other's doing it?

Originally posted by Devil King
Is this not why we yawn when we see other's doing it?

short answer yes, long answer "it is much more complex", as with anything 😉

Originally posted by inimalist
yes

That's all I was really looking for.

I always try to hold back yawns. I don't want my soul falling out! There might be a soul snatching black woman around. You never really know.

Originally posted by Devil King
That's all I was really looking for.

pfft...

fine, enjoy your ignorance 🙄

Originally posted by Devil King
I always try to hold back yawns. I don't want my soul falling out! There might be a soul snatching black woman around. You never really know.

those black are all into voodoo, we should all be worried that we might one day wake up in the body of a negro.