Time to wake up and evolve

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
So was crucifying people like a habby of everyone in the past?

I thought it was a Roman method of execution and punishment.

Yes, but it's certainly not where it originated. The Egyptian god Horus was crucified millenia before Christianity. The Romans didn't invent crucifixtion.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Where is the documentation the Gospels were not written by any of the Disciples?

Check any source that dates the books of the Bible, even Christian ones. The earliest was written around 90AD, some 60 years after the death of Jesus (give or take maybe a decade, due to the amorphous nature of historical records).

Looking at Jesus himself, there are only a few references from non-Christian sources that he even existed, and they say nothing about his life and teachings. Everything is taken from Paul and the Gospels, which I have already extensively attacked.

The burden of historical accuracy lies with Christians who believe in a person who walked on water (among other things), not those who claim that the world is "normal". And so far I've offered books, videos, ancient scholars, dates and records...I have yet to see anything to the contrary except arguments like "Well, but maybe..."

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
To say the Bible, a man-made work, is the Word of God is itself faulty. Man can not hope to properly conceive and describe something so vastly above himself. That's why certain things are mentioned such as God "reprenting". Repent is a human concept.

God is a man-made work, ever since we tried to find reasons for forces of nature that had no explanation in the ancient world. How is it so hard to take it that extra step?

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Irony. 🙂

Obviously, but it doesn't refute my point, nor does it invalidate Justin Martyr's claims.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Except for the fact we know Jesus existed. We know the Disciples existed. So, there's a grain of truth to Jesus as opposed to completely fictional gods of the older religions.

False. Other saviors had 12 followers as well. It dates back to the 12 signs of the zodiac which "followed" the sun (son) in it's yearly path around the heavens. And once again, no historical records of them exist outside the gospels, which are all borrowed from earlier myths.

You're getting dangerously close to the "Why is the Bible true? Because the Bible tells me so." loop that many fall into....unless you produce something else.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
If these ideas have been known for so long, I'm sue more ecucated Christians than myself have come across this. You are presenting a single side to the story; the side intending to disprove Christianity as a mere immitation of several previous ideas. What of the scholars of the Faith? Where is their side?

I know many Catholics who use as much science and logic as they use belief and religion.

Excellent points, and valid questions, actually.

One, I'm a former devout Catholic. I made sure I found the opposing arguments. They are severely lacking, and at best pick and choose stories to debunk while ignoring others. I talk about it more in depth over in the Mystery Religions thread.

Second, one can go through a lifetime of Christian belief, even into the priesthood, and never encounter these things. Why? Christians know what they believe, and they bolster that by reading Christian sources and authors. They may have heard of this, but no one in their life presses the issue and so they're never asked to truly question their beliefs based on these findings.

Third, I'm not the only one. Religion sections in any bookstore are littered with this stuff. Blame a severe lack of literary knowledge outside Christianity and tunnel-vision from the faithful as the main culprits, as well as communities that don't foster the need for education on this level. No one gets this in school, and how many devout religious people will go out of their way to find this stuff in between the rest of their lives? Not many, though they exist (like me).

Lastly, asking why there aren't others (there are) isn't a refutation of any of my points. It's trying to use faulty logic to undermine my reasons for debunking Christianity, and is basically just ignoring the question.

Yes, but it's certainly not where it originated. The Egyptian god Horus was crucified millenia before Christianity. The Romans didn't invent crucifixtion.

Okie dokie.

God is a man-made work, ever since we tried to find reasons for forces of nature that had no explanation in the ancient world. How is it so hard to take it that extra step?

What extra step? You mean thinking of God and then writing what we think God says? That seems unfair.

Obviously, but it doesn't refute my point, nor does it invalidate Justin Martyr's claims.

I know. I just found it amusing.

False. Other saviors had 12 followers as well. It dates back to the 12 signs of the zodiac which "followed" the sun (son) in it's yearly path around the heavens. And once again, no historical records of them exist outside the gospels, which are all borrowed from earlier myths.

You're getting dangerously close to the "Why is the Bible true? Because the Bible tells me so." loop that many fall into....unless you produce something else.

So there was no Paul, Peter, Mathew, Luke and so-forth?

Lastly, asking why there aren't others (there are) isn't a refutation of any of my points. It's trying to use faulty logic to undermine my reasons for debunking Christianity, and is basically just ignoring the question.

I'm not trying to refute your points.

Yes you are.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
...So there was no Paul, Peter, Mathew, Luke and so-forth?...

Just think about it. If Jesus was in his 30s when he died, his followers where most likely in their 20s or 30s. If the oldest book of the NT dates to 90 CE (AD), that would mean that the youngest follower of Jesus was writing when he was (90-30) + 20 = 80. Now no one had glasses or medical treatment back then, so I doubt that a 80 year old man would have be able to write these books.

Yes you are.

I'm asking him questions, not debating. Least I don't think I am. I'm trying to get information and validate that information.

I've agreed with most of his points.

Just think about it. If Jesus was in his 30s when he died, his followers where most likely in their 20s or 30s. If the oldest book of the NT dates to 90 CE (AD), that would mean that the youngest follower of Jesus was writing when he was (90-30) + 20 = 80. Now no one had glasses or medical treatment back then, so I doubt that a 80 year old man would have be able to write these books.

Good point.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
I'm asking him questions, not debating. Least I don't think I am. I'm trying to get information and validate that information.

I've agreed with most of his points.

Don't lie lol

Digi, did it look like I was debating with you? All I've done is ask questions. I didn't realize that was the basis for intellectual argument.

Shit man calm down. I'm joking because I'm bored. Bye.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Digi, did it look like I was debating with you? All I've done is ask questions. I didn't realize that was the basis for intellectual argument.

Argument, no. This has been a rather pleasant civil discussion. But a debate, sure, since you've taken an opposite stance on quite a few points, or at least offered other possible explanations. But I feel like it's actually been more productive than most on this forum...as long as you agree that everything I say is true ( 😛 ).

lol I agree with reason and evidence.

I think that's the best thing to do.

But that's one thing I detest about history. History is written by the victors And people will recount what happened very differently.

But that's one thing I detest about history. History is written by the victors And people will recount what happened very differently

jesus is a sun symbol. that is all.
wake up and grow up.

Originally posted by Deano
jesus is a sun symbol. that is all.
wake up and grow up.

I woke up 9 hourse ago though. And to the best of my knowledge, I've grown up to some degree.

Bill Hicks FTW

Originally posted by Deano
jesus is a sun symbol. that is all.
wake up and grow up.

The jab at the Holy Father was unneeded.

Faith does not mean stupidity and leave yourself open to be killed last I checked.

Here's another jab at some Holy Father: He sucks.

He's got better sheos than you.

Sheos? I got an image of shoes made out of Oreos.

droolio

What the **** is a sheo?