The Rock or Stone Cold?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Admittedly when The Rock said he'd always be WWF, then took off for Hollywood, I felt a bit baffled. It seemed a bit like selling out.

Then he came back as something more than a moderately funny catchphrase machine, and became an actually hilarious performer. It's only then did we all (Or most of us) realise just how much the WWE needed him AND Austin, because without them it was real name people in their generic ring get up with shitty personas.

Austin, like him or not, had people glued to the TV, new AND old fans, because him and McMahon has an amazing, long time feud that made great shows. It was never a question of "Hmm, do I wanna bother with the PPV?". It was "F*ck! I have to get the PPV!". You HAD to see what happened next. It was the soap opera part of professional wrestling, at its peak.

I'm not seeing as many unified generations of wrestling fans supporting Cena or Orton.

I will say it as I always have; the downfall of WWE was set in motion when The Rock and Austin started leaving, then when WWE decided Eddie and Chavo were worthy of belts. As soon as those two mid-card stereotypes were allowed into the top flight, everyone was.

There was no hype of "Ooo! Intercontinental division has some great talent, wonder who'll be next champ!". Then the next thing you know, Wrestlemania is Batista Vs Rey Mysterio for the title.

The Rock and Austin made it the best, and the other guys who go largely uncredited? Mick Foley and yes, Triple H.

When Triple H was feuding with The Rock, it was the like the I.C. equal of McMahon Vs Austin (Which, at the time, started as Austin Vs Taker, legendary Summerslam '98 match, check it out). Then him and Foley took it to new levels, then he got lazy.

It's all about Vince now, it sucks.

That said, people need to stop complaining AND watching. Either watch and stop moaning or don't watch and complain.

-AC

*agrees with everything AC just said*

And I quoted it so it'll get onto page 2.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
Think is that the wrestler has to have the ability to sell the talent or it reflects on their personality. Like when the undertaker had the biker gimmick he was able to sell it because that reflects on his real life personality and love for motorcycles.

obviously they need to posess the charisma, but nothing could convince me that the wrestlers create their own persona's

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
obviously they need to posess the charisma, but nothing could convince me that the wrestlers create their own persona's

It depends, the creative teams come up with ideas for a wrestler (aswell as the storylines)but wreslters have been known to pitch their own ideas for their character or come up with their own character. Im not sure if any of their ideas were accepted but i do they at least talk and put their inputs in and sometimes they get accepted.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
Ive never been a wrestling fan, but dont all wrestlers steal gimmicks from the personalities of other wrestlers?

Either way, no one remembers the sandman today. I doubt Wrestlers have much say over their in stage personality anyway. Im sure just like every other wrestler, Stone Cold was told who he was going to be and how he was going to act.

It was always consider "honor among thieves" to not take another wrestler's act.

Case in point. The Golden Age of the WWE and WCW in the 80's (around my time as a fan) Hulk Hogan never took Ultimate Warrior's act. However, Ultimate Warrior took some of Sting's small acts. It was pretty obvious but acceptable by certain fans.

The entire Steve Austin case was a complete joke. Most wrestling fans knew the character was orchestrated by Mc Mahon. Austin started as a body guard for the Million Dollar man. Since that didn' pay off well. Mc Mahon decided to create the "bad boy" image in him. Which stunk to high heaven. You know who got suckerthe most? Not wrestling fans because wrestling fans DON'T see organizations (i.e. WWE, WCW or TNA or whatever) they just see wrestling. The people that got sucker the most were WWE fans. They saw HYPE and NOT wrestling. Because as tought and rough as Steve is...he is not a good wrestler. Never was and never will be. He's just nothing but HYPE!

Mc Mahon knew exactly that he need it to get past by the wrestling and promote the hype. That is why he created the Bret Hart vs. Stone Cold rivalry. It was despicable to see Hype win over wrestling. Because Bret was 10x the wrestler that Steve would ever be.

Again, guess who felt for the trap? Not wrestling fans...WWE fans.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
It was always consider "honor among thieves" to not take another wrestler's act.

Case in point. The Golden Age of the WWE and WCW in the 80's (around my time as a fan) Hulk Hogan never took Ultimate Warrior's act. However, Ultimate Warrior took some of Sting's small acts. It was pretty obvious but acceptable by certain fans.

The entire Steve Austin case was a complete joke. Most wrestling fans knew the character was orchestrated by Mc Mahon. Austin started as a body guard for the Million Dollar man. Since that didn' pay off well. Mc Mahon decided to create the "bad boy" image in him. Which stunk to high heaven. You know who got suckerthe most? Not wrestling fans because wrestling fans DON'T see organizations (i.e. WWE, WCW or TNA or whatever) they just see wrestling. The people that got sucker the most were WWE fans. They saw HYPE and NOT wrestling. Because as tought and rough as Steve is...he is not a good wrestler. Never was and never will be. He's just nothing but HYPE!

Mc Mahon knew exactly that he need it to get past by the wrestling and promote the hype. That is why he created the Bret Hart vs. Stone Cold rivalry. It was despicable to see Hype win over wrestling. Because Bret was 10x the wrestler that Steve would ever be.

Again, guess who felt for the trap? Not wrestling fans...WWE fans.

Mick Foley once said "Rey Mysterio Jr. can do all the luche libre stuff in the world, he'll never get the reaction Undertaker does for just diving over the ropes.".

You know what that's called? Hype. It's the reason people watch WWE, not the olympics. Austin was nothing but hype, yes...and? You're not making a revolutionary point, here. Hype won over wrestling ability because everyone was having a great time, it was the most unified era of fandom.

Hulk Hogan was hype, he wasn't a good wrestler. There's a reason him slamming Andre stands out in peoples' minds more than Ricky Steamboat Vs Randy Savage, and that's because it's about hype. People will remember Angle's moonsault off the cage more than his olympic victory.

Even in TNA, a place chock full of great wrestlers, you don't see people jumping out of their seats in appreciation for technical grace, you see them jumping out of their seats when AJ Styles dives off something, or Rhino gores someone through a table.

Bret Hart was a great professional wrestler, but there's a reason everyone preferred Shawn Michaels, because he was exciting the crowd. Bret Hart could never have had Hell in a Cell with Taker, or Foley.

If you want wrestling, watch the olympics. Not everyone is going to have the skill of Angle or Benoit AND the ability to excite a crowd.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Mick Foley once said "Rey Mysterio Jr. can do all the luche libre stuff in the world, he'll never get the reaction Undertaker does for just diving over the ropes."

Good! that's his perspective from a wrestler point of view. I'm giving the wrestling fan perspective. You do know that Rey Mysterio isn't the only talented wrestler from Mexico right? There are others that stayed in Mexico and much more beloved by their fans.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

You know what that's called? Hype. It's the reason people watch WWE, not the olympics. Austin was nothing but hype, yes...and? You're not making a revolutionary point, here. Hype won over wrestling ability because everyone was having a great time, it was the most unified era of fandom.

WRONG! People watch the WWE for many reason. Hype should be the LAST reason. Unified era of fandom? Really? You mean mainstream fandom. Good job! You got sucker by Mc Mahon. He used hype to get wrestling into the mainstream. You went along with it.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Hulk Hogan was hype, he wasn't a good wrestler. There's a reason him slamming Andre stands out in peoples' minds more than Ricky Steamboat Vs Randy Savage, and that's because it's about hype.

Hulk Hogan is an icon. A very likeable icon for his time. Even people who weren't wrestling fans liked the guy. That didn't worked for Steve Austin since he have to wear to his "bad boy" costume all the time.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Even in TNA, a place chock full of great wrestlers, you don't see people jumping out of their seats in appreciation for technical grace, you see them jumping out of their seats when AJ Styles dives off something, or Rhino gores someone through a table.

Try watching Mexican wrestling...fans cheer death defying jump ropes.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Bret Hart was a great professional wrestler, but there's a reason everyone preferred Shawn Michaels, because he was exciting the crowd. Bret Hart could never have had Hell in a Cell with Taker, or Foley.

You said it! Bret Hart is a "professional" wrestler. That is why he doesn't perform in dangerous stunts like Foley, Raven, Undertaker, Sabu, and others.

Shawn Michaels is in another different level. He used to performed in both professional and hardcore. That is what made Shawn more appealing. He couldn't be easily manipulated by Mc Mahon. Eventually his atrocious creation had to take on Shawn. Why? because Hype demands it.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

If you want wrestling, watch the olympics. Not everyone is going to have the skill of Angle or Benoit AND the ability to excite a crowd.

-AC

No, thank you! I'll watch wrestling which makes it fun and thrilling to watch.

You can tip the dancing bear and watch as much as hype as you like. I'll go back to watching Mascara Sagrade "wrestle" El matador.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Good! that's his perspective from a wrestler point of view. I'm giving the wrestling fan perspective. You do know that Rey Mysterio isn't the only talented wrestler from Mexico right? There are others that stayed in Mexico and much more beloved by their fans.

Yes, for a while it was the only wrestling I watched.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
WRONG! People watch the WWE for many reason. Hype should be the LAST reason. Unified era of fandom? Really? You mean mainstream fandom. Good job! You got sucker by Mc Mahon. He used hype to get wrestling into the mainstream. You went along with it.

Why SHOULD it be? It's called World Wrestling Entertainment, it's fulfilling that, even in the Stone Cold era, it was fulfilling that. Whether the gimmicks were stolen from ECW or not (A fair point), it was fulfilling it.

I liked ECW a lot more on the whole, but there is a reason more people watched WWE, it's not a coincidence you know.

I was into wrestling long before Austin came into it, Dwarf, so you're not only wrong there, but on your second claim. I didn't get "suckered" by McMahon. He was making TV that I enjoyed watching, it made me no less of a wrestling fan because I watched Austin's era and liked it. At the same time Taz was my favourite wrestler of all, he was in ECW, and I still consider him one of the most underrated, along with Nova and Chris Chetti.

If your childish retort is "YOU GOT SUCKERED!" then you may as well stop it. Not everyone who liked it got suckered. If that were the case, I'd still like the show. Far be it for us to watch WWE and enjoy the hype element of it. Yeah, let's condemn them to bingo halls and have them in an armbar for an hour. ECW wasn't great because of wrestling alone, it was great cos the wrestling was EXCITING. Dan Severn had great wrestling ability, but I'd rather watch paint dry than him in the WWE (Or WWF as it was known then).

Yeah, I mean mainstream fandom. Not the kind who sit on the net and expect everyone to be Jushin Liger or Benoit, people who recognise that whilst WWE isn't the best just cos it's famous, there is a clear reason every other federation didn't get the attention WWE did. WWE is hyped through the roof now more than ever, it's not seen as it was back from '98 to '03, though. I went to see WWF's Capital Carnage in 1998, they had no pyro, nothing. It was reliant purely on the hype of the matches, which included Austin. Now they have all the hype in the world and no Austin, The Rock is gone, and what's happened? Exactly.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Hulk Hogan is an icon. A very likeable icon for his time. Even people who weren't wrestling fans liked the guy That didn't worked for Steve Austin since he have to wear to his "bad boy" costume all the time.

So what? Austin is an icon, just not one that people liked because they weren't the same kids that liked Hogan.

Hogan, as a fact, held back many potential champions because he had to be the winner, had to be the good guy, had to be "immortal". Jake Roberts, Ted Dibiase, Ricky Steamboat etc. All potential champions held back until Taker finally came along and whooped him out, best thing to ever happen in WWF history, really.

Austin had detractors as every champ does, but at least other competitors were made to seem legit, it never always seemed guaranteed that Austin would make it out with the belt. You always knew Hogan would win, cos that's what Hogan did.

It doesn't matter if it "worked" for Austin, whether he was a likeable icon or not. Nobody has been as famous in wrestling since Hogan, and never was an era so revered as his.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Try watching Mexican wrestling...fans cheer death defying jump ropes.

Try not assuming, makes you look kind of stupid.

What, you think your some kind of under-the-radar wrestling fan cos you watch luche libre or something? Who gives a shit? I was at that stage too. I thought watching obscure federations made me cool, but in reality, besides a few decent wrestlers, they were mostly shit. That's why hardly anyone gives a shit about black and white movies coming out of Europe as opposed to 300, because...it's just not that good.

If that's where you find your entertainment, great, but please don't act like your some pioneering wrestling fan. I've been there and seen that at age 21, you're much older, so if anything you're catching onto the "I'm cool!" thing a bit late.

I was watching Hayabusa's deathmatches from New Japan when I was in my early teens. You don't get anything out of suggesting obscure wrestling to me, Dwarf.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
You said it! Bret Hart is a "professional" wrestler. That is why he doesn't perform in dangerous stunts like Foley, Raven, Undertaker, Sabu, and others.

They're all professional wrestlers. What do you expect? Matches full of holds? Go watch the olympics then.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Shawn Michaels is in another different level. He used to performed in both professional and hardcore. That is what made Shawn more appealing. He couldn't be easily manipulated by Mc Mahon. Eventually his atrocious creation had to take on Shawn. Why? because Hype demands it.

Wrestling, in the mainstream, isn't some artistically credible medium, Dwarf. You're quite naive.

McMahon wants to make money, that's all he really cares about. He cares about putting asses in seats, selling tickets and selling merch, that's really about it. It just so happens that certain eras of doing that have produced great entertainment for different kinds of people.

He does what he wants and what he feels will make him money, and it does. Austin era did that, and brought entertainment and memories to a great many people, you were not one. Cry a river, build a bridge, get over it. It's why Cena had the belt for so long, this is another generation's turn. You had Hogan as did I, for a while, then for the bulk of it I had Austin, they have Cena. It's the way it works.

Many thought the same way about Hogan, and still do to this day. When he's around he is pissing people off cos he wants to be number one.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
No, thank you! I'll watch wrestling which makes it fun and thrilling to watch.

Yeah, and so will I, so will anyone. It makes us no less wrestling fans because we liked the Austin era.

You like Coldplay. Boring, dull, derivative shit in my opinion. U2, overrated, preachy, pretentious horseshit. I'm not going around accusing you of being a lesser music fan, you like what you like.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
You can tip the dancing bear and watch as much as hype as you like. I'll go back to watching Mascara Sagrade "wrestle" El matador.

Ok, you do that, and keep listening to Coldplay.

-AC

I'm actually in agreement with AC. They never claim to have great technical wrestling. It's just a soap opera on steroids (figuratively and literally). The hype, the acting, etc. is the main point and always has been since McMahon became big back in the 80's with Hogan and such.

How many more anticipatory and exciting things were there than after an elbow drop was performed you heard...

If you smeLLLLLLlllllalalalalaalalllllLLLLLLLLLoooooWWWWWWWW...what the ROOOCK...is cookin'!!!!

*cue music*

..it was awesome. ✅

I still remember a skit he had with Jerry the King and they were debating the greatest line in wrestling history. Ha! ...starting to crack up thinking about it.
😂

He did: Woooh! To be the man! You gotta beat the....no, no, no, that can't be it. Man, that stinks.

Then: I am the best there is! The best there was, and the best there ever...pfff...no, no, no that can't be it. That stinks.

He then imitated: Whatya gonna do when the...no, no, no that's not it. That can't be the greatest line in wrestling history.

Oh I know.....If you smeLLLLL........

😆

Hysterical shite, my man. Classic stuff. An entertainer second to none.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I'm actually in agreement with AC. They never claim to have great technical wrestling. It's just a soap opera on steroids (figuratively and literally). The hype, the acting, etc. is the main point and always has been since McMahon became big back in the 80's with Hogan and such.

Originally posted by BobbyD
How many more anticipatory and exciting things were there than after an elbow drop was performed you heard...

If you smeLLLLLLlllllalalalalaalalllllLLLLLLLLLoooooWWWWWWWW...what the ROOOCK...is cookin'!!!!

*cue music*

..it was awesome. ✅

I still remember a skit he had with Jerry the King and they were debating the greatest line in wrestling history. Ha! ...starting to crack up thinking about it.
😂

He did: Woooh! To be the man! You gotta beat the....no, no, no, that can't be it. Man, that stinks.

Then: I am the best there is! The best there was, and the best there ever...pfff...no, no, no that can't be it. That stinks.

He then imitated: Whatya gonna do when the...no, no, no that's not it. That can't be the greatest line in wrestling history.

Oh I know.....If you smeLLLLL........

😆

Hysterical shite, my man. Classic stuff. An entertainer second to none.

co-mother-f*cking-signed! This is why he was awesome.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Chris Benoit.

lol crippler cross face ftw!

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes, for a while it was the only wrestling I watched.

Why SHOULD it be? It's called World Wrestling Entertainment, it's fulfilling that, even in the Stone Cold era, it was fulfilling that. Whether the gimmicks were stolen from ECW or not (A fair point), it was fulfilling it.

Fullfiling WHAT? Characters from all over the world? That's a good one. Stop if you heard this one before.... but this one will kill ya Oh, let me guess...the Bolveshiks were actually from the Soviet Union...Kamala was from Uganda...Yeah, "World" wrestling, huh?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

I liked ECW a lot more on the whole, but there is a reason more people watched WWE, it's not a coincidence you know.

Of course there is no coindence...that's what Hype does. Bring in the crowds of clueless people and take their money away. WWE Tells them that they'll have a wrestling show....but what they have is an entertainment show...you get half a glass of what you want if you're a wrestling fan. The crowds just cheer whoever comes out with the biggest show.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I was into wrestling long before Austin came into it, Dwarf, so you're not only wrong there, but on your second claim. I didn't get "suckered" by McMahon. He was making TV that I enjoyed watching, it made me no less of a wrestling fan because I watched Austin's era and liked it. At the same time Taz was my favourite wrestler of all, he was in ECW, and I still consider him one of the most underrated, along with Nova and Chris Chetti.

That's nice that you were into WWE "entertainment" and not "wrestling". I find the name Stone Cold and wrestling to be an oxymoron. Because he is more ENTERTAINER than WRESTLER. So if you find Austin to be more of a wrestler than entertainer...whoah! Mc Mahon sure did a great job. You watch Austin and like it...I'm sure as a wrestling fan you sure did like his wrestling more than his acting....RIGHT?

You like Taz? Good! As a "wrestling" fan you would put Taz and Austin in the same category of "wrestling" or "entertainment"? You get a cookie if you get this one right.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

If your childish retort is "YOU GOT SUCKERED!" then you may as well stop it. Not everyone who liked it got suckered. If that were the case, I'd still like the show. Far be it for us to watch WWE and enjoy the hype element of it. Yeah, let's condemn them to bingo halls and have them in an armbar for an hour. ECW wasn't great because of wrestling alone, it was great cos the wrestling was EXCITING. Dan Severn had great wrestling ability, but I'd rather watch paint dry than him in the WWE (Or WWF as it was known then).

Yes, the sucker it's the proper word. Anyone saying..."Oh! Stone Cold had a great wrestling match! The Stone Cold Cutter was awesome! What a great wrestler he is!" Gets that label perfectly fine.

Correction on ECW. Aside from "EXCITING" ECW delivered great performances because A. It was Hardcore B. Much more technical matches C. The characters and even fans hated anything and everything about WWF! Why? because WWF was simply atrocious! Yeah, Doink the Clown and Dink vs Jerry the King Lawler and another midget....OOOoooh!!!! Wrestling exciting!!!!

You know something? If Bingo halls can produce a more impact wrestling experience than big stadiums with gimmicks...which of the two would a wrestler fan enjoy? Hmmm...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Yeah, I mean mainstream fandom. Not the kind who sit on the net and expect everyone to be Jushin Liger or Benoit, people who recognise that whilst WWE isn't the best just cos it's famous, there is a clear reason every other federation didn't get the attention WWE did. WWE is hyped through the roof now more than ever, it's not seen as it was back from '98 to '03, though. I went to see WWF's Capital Carnage in 1998, they had no pyro, nothing. It was reliant purely on the hype of the matches, which included Austin. Now they have all the hype in the world and no Austin, The Rock is gone, and what's happened? Exactly.

Tell me what did happen?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

So what? Austin is an icon, just not one that people liked because they weren't the same kids that liked Hogan.

Hogan, as a fact, held back many potential champions because he had to be the winner, had to be the good guy, had to be "immortal". Jake Roberts, Ted Dibiase, Ricky Steamboat etc. All potential champions held back until Taker finally came along and whooped him out, best thing to ever happen in WWF history, really.

Austin an icon? Of entertainment?! Oh, I'll give you one that one. But as a wrestlling icon? Oh, you have to be kidding here....aren't you?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Austin had detractors as every champ does, but at least other competitors were made to seem legit, it never always seemed guaranteed that Austin would make it out with the belt. You always knew Hogan would win, cos that's what Hogan did.

Riiiight..that's why Hogan lost to Yokozuna. Who later lost to the other failed gimmick of "All American Lex Luger"

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

It doesn't matter if it "worked" for Austin, whether he was a likeable icon or not. Nobody has been as famous in wrestling since Hogan, and never was an era so revered as his.

I'm sorry...but you're missing Andre the Giant. OBEY!

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Try not assuming, makes you look kind of stupid.

Back at you.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

What, you think your some kind of under-the-radar wrestling fan cos you watch luche libre or something? Who gives a shit? I was at that stage too. I thought watching obscure federations made me cool, but in reality, besides a few decent wrestlers, they were mostly shit. That's why hardly anyone gives a shit about black and white movies coming out of Europe as opposed to 300, because...it's just not that good.

You obviously do give a shit. Since you're the one addressing me in the first place. Now as for the 300 and Europe and all that...you're getting delirious...stop and catch a breath.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

If that's where you find your entertainment, great, but please don't act like your some pioneering wrestling fan. I've been there and seen that at age 21, you're much older, so if anything you're catching onto the "I'm cool!" thing a bit late.

Who is acting? Wasn't I clear enough when I said to you I'm giving a wrestling fan perspective. You're 21 and I'm 31....your point? Oh, if you want to verified that I was watching wrestling at age 11 when you still shitting on your diappers and crying at mom for your milk...then yeah, I was.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

I was watching Hayabusa's deathmatches from New Japan when I was in my early teens. You don't get anything out of suggesting obscure wrestling to me, Dwarf.

I was watching bootleg copies of Fist Wrestling from Brazil....your point?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

They're all professional wrestlers. What do you expect? Matches full of holds? Go watch the olympics then.

Hahahaha!!! Oh, good one...Stone Cold a professional wrestler. Professional Entertainer more like it. Oh, wait! King Kong Bundy is a professional wrestler? BWAHWHAHAHA!!!

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Wrestling, in the mainstream, isn't some artistically credible medium, Dwarf. You're quite naive.

McMahon wants to make money, that's all he really cares about. He cares about putting asses in seats, selling tickets and selling merch, that's really about it. It just so happens that certain eras of doing that have produced great entertainment for different kinds of people.

Wrestling *cough* Excuse me, WWE in the mainstream is exactly that Entertainment. I'll give you that WWE have good professional wrestlers. But they have to be there....it pays the bills. So when work is tight and they have put on a show...oh, well, it pays the bills.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

He does what he wants and what he feels will make him money, and it does. Austin era did that, and brought entertainment and memories to a great many people, you were not one. Cry a river, build a bridge, get over it. It's why Cena had the belt for so long, this is another generation's turn. You had Hogan as did I, for a while, then for the bulk of it I had Austin, they have Cena. It's the way it works.

I don't have to cry a river or build all that stuff. I didn't fell for it. You did and others...oh well. Que Sera? Sera? Whatever will be will be...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

You like Coldplay. Boring, dull, derivative shit in my opinion. U2, overrated, preachy, pretentious horseshit. I'm not going around accusing you of being a lesser music fan, you like what you like.

Ok, you do that, and keep listening to Coldplay.

-AC

Why, yes! I DO like Coldplay and U2 is my all time favorite band.

...

You don't like them?

...

What do you want me to do? Explain something meaningful? Something that will convince you otherwise? Oh, heck I don't care. You had a point to make there or something? Wrestling and Music..what can I say? Two things I like.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Fullfiling WHAT? Characters from all over the world? That's a good one. Stop if you heard this one before.... but this one will kill ya Oh, let me guess...the Bolveshiks were actually from the Soviet Union...Kamala was from Uganda...Yeah, "World" wrestling, huh?

Wait, why are you being silly? You do this in every debate you have.

Fulfilling the entertainment, of course. Regardless of what big Mr. Dwarf thinks, it's always, somehow, fulfilling that.

Are you suggesting there's some kind of racism in WWE?

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Of course there is no coindence...that's what Hype does. Bring in the crowds of clueless people and take their money away. WWE Tells them that they'll have a wrestling show....but what they have is an entertainment show...you get half a glass of what you want if you're a wrestling fan. The crowds just cheer whoever comes out with the biggest show.

Oh give it a rest. You sound like Oscar the Grouch, and people call ME moany, jeez.

Why are they clueless? Do you not accept the fact that not everybody is dumb enough to expect CMLL when they go to a WWE show or watch it on TV? I didn't expect ECW, I expected exactly what I knew WWF/E would deliver. People sitting around complaining that WWE doesn't have what Mexican federations do, are idiots, because that has never, ever been the point.

Mexico has more or less always been about what you described, and that's cool, but WWE hasn't. WWE combines, or tries to, elements of everything because it HAS to try to please as many people as possible. For Vince, it has never been about making a top quality wrestling performance, the term "wrestling" is used very loosely. More so now, but over time also.

You think that because people don't watch Mexican wrestling they're idiots? I think people like you, who don't "get" what WWE is, are pretty high on the silly list also.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
That's nice that you were into WWE "entertainment" and not "wrestling". I find the name Stone Cold and wrestling to be an oxymoron. Because he is more ENTERTAINER than WRESTLER. So if you find Austin to be more of a wrestler than entertainer...whoah! Mc Mahon sure did a great job. You watch Austin and like it...I'm sure as a wrestling fan you sure did like his wrestling more than his acting....RIGHT?

Who said I wasn't into wrestling? Why are you assuming that you cannot be into both? Wisdom with age clearly isn't a factual development...

Yes, he was more of an entertainer, what's your point? On his work permit it would say "Professional wrestler.", it doesn't literally mean he was some ring general, it's what the business is known as, take the literal stick out of your ass.

Steve Austin was one of my favourite entertainers in the wrestling business, never have I said he was a great wrestler, or that I enjoyed his wrestling, where are you getting this? Oh, you are making it up because as usual, you're proving you love to make stuff up.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
You like Taz? Good! As a "wrestling" fan you would put Taz and Austin in the same category of "wrestling" or "entertainment"? You get a cookie if you get this one right.

And you get a big "F" stamp on your head for being such a corner-staring, back-of-the-class ignorant fool when it comes to wrestling. You are arguably one of the most uneducated wrestling "fans" I have ever seen, at least in your ability to understand the point of WWE, and read peoples' posts without putting your own ideas in.

Of course I wouldn't put them in the same catagory. Taz was a wrestler in the wrestling "business", the entertainment side. Austin was an entertainer in the entertainment side. I never said anything different, I...in fact, specified the opposite.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Yes, the sucker it's the proper word. Anyone saying..."Oh! Stone Cold had a great wrestling match! The Stone Cold Cutter was awesome! What a great wrestler he is!" Gets that label perfectly fine.

And so does anyone who thinks they're cool cos they can name Mexican wrestlers nobody really gives a shit about. I watched it for a long time because I felt I owed it to myself, AS a wrestling fan, to learn more of what it truly was, started as and become OUTSIDE of "entertainment". The fact that I enjoyed entertainment MIXED with wrestling, like ECW, like late '90s WWE, does not make me less of a fan.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Correction on ECW. Aside from "EXCITING" ECW delivered great performances because A. It was Hardcore

Review that and come back when you've cracked why it's so hypocritical. Actually no, I'll tell you.

"Hardcore" is anything but technical, anything but traditional. All that IS, is hype, entertainment. Just because it's people who, in your eyes, were credible doing it, doesn't mean that "hardcore" is any closer to what you deem to be wrestling and any further from entertainment than Austin was.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
B. Much more technical matches C. The characters and even fans hated anything and everything about WWF! Why? because WWF was simply atrocious! Yeah, Doink the Clown and Dink vs Jerry the King Lawler and another midget....OOOoooh!!!! Wrestling exciting!!!!

Yeah, it's nice when you're sitting at home watching it, and ECW fans/wrestlers alike will tell you it's a huge part of their life, or was. They hated everything about WWF for the same reason people hate everything about U2 but love System of a Down.

They consider U2 boring in the face of what THEY like, personally. Like me. You hated WWF, fine by me, I loved ECW too. People WERE capable of CHOOSING to like WWF/E on their own terms, not everyone who enjoyed it was some mindless sheep, just like not everyone who enjoys Coldplay is an idiot with boring taste in music.

You might like bands I do, just like we both enjoyed ECW and Mexican wrestling, it doesn't mean you like music less cos of Coldplay or I like wrestling less cos of WWE, does it?

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
You know something? If Bingo halls can produce a more impact wrestling experience than big stadiums with gimmicks...which of the two would a wrestler fan enjoy? Hmmm...

That wasn't my point, was it? My point was that there is a clear reason that they are in those positions. People are not wrong for wanting their "wrestling" to be a conduit for entertainment as the main point. There is no wrong or right here.

You are acting like hype and excitement is wrong, or that people are wrong or stupid for liking it. What would you say to those people who hate ANY kind of pro wrestling because it's scripted?

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Tell me what did happen?

In MY opinion, it got shit, but that's the point. Hogan was hated and loved by "fans", Austin was, Cena now is.

It's all in the generations.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Austin an icon? Of entertainment?! Oh, I'll give you one that one. But as a wrestlling icon? Oh, you have to be kidding here....aren't you?

Where did I say that he was a good wrestler?

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Riiiight..that's why Hogan lost to Yokozuna. Who later lost to the other failed gimmick of "All American Lex Luger"

Wrestlemania 9, why did Hogan win the title instead of Bret Hart?

Go on, give it a try. Oh, he won it because he was a drama case. That's precisely why. The fans wanted Hogan as champ.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I'm sorry...but you're missing Andre the Giant. OBEY!

He was not as much of an icon as Austin, and I dare you to argue for Andre's wrestling ability.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Back at you.

Niiice. Did Vince Russo write that one for you?

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
You obviously do give a shit. Since you're the one addressing me in the first place. Now as for the 300 and Europe and all that...you're getting delirious...stop and catch a breath.

I'll slow down for you, then.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Who is acting? Wasn't I clear enough when I said to you I'm giving a wrestling fan perspective. You're 21 and I'm 31....your point? Oh, if you want to verified that I was watching wrestling at age 11 when you still shitting on your diappers and crying at mom for your milk...then yeah, I was.

Excellent, and for all that you've still not "got it". You still fail miserably to see the point of why so many different "wrestling" federations with different balances of entertainment/ability exist.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I was watching bootleg copies of Fist Wrestling from Brazil....your point?

See? You're doing it again.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Hahahaha!!! Oh, good one...Stone Cold a professional wrestler. Professional Entertainer more like it. Oh, wait! King Kong Bundy is a professional wrestler? BWAHWHAHAHA!!!

Stop hitting the panic button.

His occupation is professional wrestler, that is what it is known as. He doesn't "wrestle". Torrie Wilson's occupation form would say they same thing. They are in the wrestling "business", the have "wrestling" matches.

You and I both know they are not "wrestlers", my point was just general catagorisation. I'll dumb it down more next time.

-AC

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Wrestling *cough* Excuse me, WWE in the mainstream is exactly that Entertainment. I'll give you that WWE have good professional wrestlers. But they have to be there....it pays the bills. So when work is tight and they have put on a show...oh, well, it pays the bills.

Why do you honestly think all of ECW's wrestlers jumped ship? Ask Taz if he's happy commentating, a choice HE made.

WWF/E has put on some of the best wrestling shows. Angle Vs Benoit? You'd be out of your skull to suggest that wasn't a great wrestling match. Bret Hart Vs Michaels? Exactly. Then, Taker Vs Foley? It was an amazing match. If you wanna get caught up on "wrestler" being applied with the most anal of restrictions, then hardly anything nowadays is "wrestling". Go watch the olympics.

There's a reason YOU don't watch that, and watch scripted wrestling instead.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I don't have to cry a river or build all that stuff. I didn't fell for it. You did and others...oh well. Que Sera? Sera? Whatever will be will be...

I didn't fall for it, I chose to watch it. At the same time I was watching stuff you consider to be great, and recognising the difference. You're just being stupid.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Why, yes! I DO like Coldplay and U2 is my all time favorite band.

...

You don't like them?

Nah, but apparantly you don't know the difference between good and shit, hmm? You got suckered in like everyone else!

No, you didn't, did you? You like them because you chose to like them. You're not wrong. I think they're shit, I think of Coldplay how you seem to think of WWE, you aren't "wrong" though.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
...

What do you want me to do? Explain something meaningful? Something that will convince you otherwise? Oh, heck I don't care. You had a point to make there or something? Wrestling and Music..what can I say? Two things I like.

Exactly. You like Coldplay, they entertain you. Many credible music fans would laugh at you, like you're laughing at WWE fans. I'm one of them.

Point being, I don't act like you're somehow a lesser person because of it, or stupid, or that you got suckered in. You, on the other hand, are ignorant.

-AC

I saw both Stone Cold and The Rock during their prime, and man oh man was it the best entertainment ever. The attitude era was so amazing. I remember looking forward to every Monday Night Raw and Smackdown. The tension was so great between the two of them. They always had so much respect for each other yet they were bitter rivals, and when they helped each other out during matches it was bliss. This is something that WWE can never re-capture. I stopped watching WWF after 2001, and obviously it has never been the same since.

I ALWAYS preffered Stone Cold over The Rock. Something about the whole Austin gimmick worked more than the Rock. Stone Cold was more IN YOUR FACE, the Rock was great but was just pale in comparison to Stone Cold. I hate to be technical here( since the whole concept of WWF fighting is scripted), but Wrestlemania 17 was the best Stone Cold Rock match ever, and Stone cold won that. Stone cold won a lot more matches over the rock than the rock did over stone cold. Of course it depended on who the writers made the heel at the time, but stone cold I felt was always head and toes over the Rock as a wrestler and with presence even. THis is not to discredit The Rock's persona what soever, but Stone Cold was just that damn amazing.

I think my favorite Stone Cold/Rock moment was Backlash 2000, when HELL BROKE LOSE.. Stone Cold helped the rock reclaim his wwf championship from triple H after PWNING every person on the ring. He returned after 9 months of absense! It was just for me the greatest wrestling moment ever, if not one of the very finest. Does anyone remember that match? If so, I would like to hear comments about that match.

PS: WWF lost it after wcw switch-over in 2002.

I'd rather watch a half hour armbar, personally.

(Joking)

-AC

Originally posted by alic88
I saw both Stone Cold and The Rock during their prime, and man oh man was it the best entertainment ever. The attitude era was so amazing. I remember looking forward to every Monday Night Raw and Smackdown. The tension was so great between the two of them. They always had so much respect for each other yet they were bitter rivals, and when they helped each other out during matches it was bliss. This is something that WWE can never re-capture. I stopped watching WWF after 2001, and obviously it has never been the same since.

Only once previously was this imitated.....when Hogan and Macho Man became buds. The flying elbow followed by leg drop on the likes of DiBiasi, King Kong Bundy, Big John Stud, and Paul Orndorff. Good times. Good times.

Holy Essay Batman!

Lower your post to 10,000 characters AC. You're not giving a speech here.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Wait, why are you being silly? You do this in every debate you have.
Fulfilling the entertainment, of course. Regardless of what big Mr. Dwarf thinks, it's always, somehow, fulfilling that.
Are you suggesting there's some kind of racism in WWE?

I do this in every debate? Riiiight AC...you're doing your typical "10,000 word post argument" here and eventually shift off to other topics.
Fullfilling entertainment. Not wrestling...correct? You said it! Entertainment. Thank you.

Now stop doing a Philosophicus ploy to shift to other topics like racism.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Oh give it a rest. You sound like Oscar the Grouch, and people call ME moany, jeez.

Why are they clueless? Do you not accept the fact that not everybody is dumb enough to expect CMLL when they go to a WWE show or watch it on TV? I didn't expect ECW, I expected exactly what I knew WWF/E would deliver. People sitting around complaining that WWE doesn't have what Mexican federations do, are idiots, because that has never, ever been the point.

Mexico has more or less always been about what you described, and that's cool, but WWE hasn't. WWE combines, or tries to, elements of everything because it HAS to try to please as many people as possible. For Vince, it has never been about making a top quality wrestling performance, the term "wrestling" is used very loosely. More so now, but over time also.

Yeah, well I guess that makes you Big Bird by trying to find the word of the day. In your case the post of the day.

The mainstream is clueless when they swallow the theatrics of WWE when they call themselves "wrestlers" See, it's an easy trap. First WWE says it's wrestling. People with a good amount of reason call it as they see it. They say "that's not wrestling" so AHA! when Mc Mahon gets caught with this kind of reasoning he runs into the "entertainment" part. Which is what you're doing here as well.

In the mid 90's to mascarade their image WWF try to bring wrestlers from Japan and Mexico. It was then know as "The New Generation". It backfire on his ass when people started to appreciate the wrestling more than the hype. Mc Mahon's world theather was in danger. So he opted to make his entertainers appear more dominant. Kids like you fell for it. So props to Mc Mahon for making you think you were getting a wrestling match when you instead you got Entertain.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You think that because people don't watch Mexican wrestling they're idiots? I think people like you, who don't "get" what WWE is, are pretty high on the silly list also.

Your words not mine. I've given you a pretty wide view on what I think. So don't let it pass you.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Who said I wasn't into wrestling? Why are you assuming that you cannot be into both? Wisdom with age clearly isn't a factual development...

Yes, he was more of an entertainer, what's your point? On his work permit it would say "Professional wrestler.", it doesn't literally mean he was some ring general, it's what the business is known as, take the literal stick out of your ass.

Because you suck up what WWE gives you. If you're a wrestling fan then by all means learn to separate two things. 1. Entertainment 2. Wrestling. Sure you can have both. But when you confuse them you're lost.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Steve Austin was one of my favourite entertainers....

Oh, that explains this whole fuss you're throwing here...you need to get your tantrums out. AC here is a lesson...You aren't the first one to try to argue with me about Stone Cold. You will lose. So lower the sword and banner. Your favorite entertainer is NOT a wrestler. He can only stomp, kick, punch, chug beer and yell out profanity.

Oooh-Ohh!! You come out with your typical Austin gimmick...."WHAT?" "WHAT?". Monkey see monkey do.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Of course I wouldn't put them in the same catagory. Taz was a wrestler in the wrestling "business", the entertainment side. Austin was an entertainer in the entertainment side. I never said anything different, I...in fact, specified the opposite.

You get a cookie! I'll give you an Oatmeal cookie.

*gives cookie to AC*

There is hope for you after all.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
And so does anyone who thinks they're cool cos they can name Mexican wrestlers nobody really gives a shit about. I watched it for a long time because I felt I owed it to myself, AS a wrestling fan, to learn more of what it truly was, started as and become OUTSIDE of "entertainment". The fact that I enjoyed entertainment MIXED with wrestling, like ECW, like late '90s WWE, does not make me less of a fan.

Now, AC who gives a shit if you're a wrestling fan? hmm....?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Review that and come back when you've cracked why it's so hypocritical. Actually no, I'll tell you.

There is nothing to review. Except that you say you're a wrestling fan. Who gives a shit? (how does a taste of your own medicine feel?)

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

"Hardcore" is anything but technical, anything but traditional. All that IS, is hype, entertainment. Just because it's people who, in your eyes, were credible doing it, doesn't mean that "hardcore" is any closer to what you deem to be wrestling and any further from entertainment than Austin was.

I'll school you on this...

Hardcore wrestling have more heart and soul than entertaiment. Wrestlers risk injury or even death when performing these stunts. Hardcore isn't hype AC. Don't be sucha stick in the mud. Hardcore takes place nearly everywhere. In the WWE , ECW, Japanese, and BYW (Back Yard Wrestling I have translate that for you) Austin may have performed something similar to Hardcore. But because he was an investment of Vince. He never pull stunts like Foley or Taker.

Please reflect on your thoughts when considering what is hardcore and what is theater wrestling. It's a subject very close to me. Hardcore wrestlers get more respect than Austin. Which is a terrible shame people putting Austin first and hardcore wrestlers in third. Really a shame.

To be Continue...

Continue...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Yeah, it's nice when you're sitting at home watching it, and ECW fans/wrestlers alike will tell you it's a huge part of their life, or was. They hated everything about WWF for the same reason people hate everything about U2 but love System of a Down.

They consider U2 boring in the face of what THEY like, personally. Like me. You hated WWF, fine by me, I loved ECW too. People WERE capable of CHOOSING to like WWF/E on their own terms, not everyone who enjoyed it was some mindless sheep, just like not everyone who enjoys Coldplay is an idiot with boring taste in music.

I don't hate the WWF. I don't suck up their antics like you were doing. We're not talking what we choose is what we like. We're talking about Entertainment and Wrestling. You're the one confusing the two.

Do you really think is important to me if other wrestling fans don't like U2 or Coldplay? I don't AC..I really don't. What I share with them is my love for wrestling. Heck! They could love Britney Spears for all I care. I only connect with them by wrestling. Different strokes for different folks.

AC...you're desperately trying to drag things here were they don't belong. What are you going to pull next? Other of my favorite things? You want a list?

Batman
DC Comics
Xbox 360
Cherry Coke
Pumpkin Pie
DS Lite
Spaghetti Westerns
70's Kung Fu flicks

Oh, I got one....HALO 3! Do your magic!

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That wasn't my point, was it? My point was that there is a clear reason that they are in those positions. People are not wrong for wanting their "wrestling" to be a conduit for entertainment as the main point. There is no wrong or right here.

You are acting like hype and excitement is wrong, or that people are wrong or stupid for liking it. What would you say to those people who hate ANY kind of pro wrestling because it's scripted?

Your whole drive in this whole ordeal is because I call Stone Cold an Entertainer and not a wrestler. Hype and Excitment are not wrong. What is wrong is when people confuse two things that are not the same.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

In MY opinion, it got shit, but that's the point. Hogan was hated and loved by "fans", Austin was, Cena now is.

It's all in the generations.

It's all in the characters. Get it right.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Wrestlemania 9, why did Hogan win the title instead of Bret Hart?

Go on, give it a try. Oh, he won it because he was a drama case. That's precisely why. The fans wanted Hogan as champ.

As I recall Ultimate Warrior was the next candidate. But because the man was never appropiate with his timing...he didn't get it.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

He was not as much of an icon as Austin, and I dare you to argue for Andre's wrestling ability.

I know you're in the UK AC. See, Andre is beyond the Icon Austin will ever be. Search the OBEY! movement. Andre is a god.

I dare you to watch some of Andre's wrestling matches prior to the 80's. Then come back and talk.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Niiice. Did Vince Russo write that one for you?

I'm not a hack like Austin. That was my own craft.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'll slow down for you, then.

I'll speed it up for you since you're passing the point and missing it.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Excellent, and for all that you've still not "got it". You still fail miserably to see the point of why so many different "wrestling" federations with different balances of entertainment/ability exist.

Federations will come and go. Wrestlers will always be remenber.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

His occupation is professional wrestler, that is what it is known as. He doesn't "wrestle". Torrie Wilson's occupation form would say they same thing. They are in the wrestling "business", the have "wrestling" matches.

You and I both know they are not "wrestlers", my point was just general catagorisation. I'll dumb it down more next time.

-AC

His occupation is Entertainer! That is why he makes movies. That is why he appears in Celebrety death matches. That is why he....oh, well if you dont' get it by now it's hopeless.