Comic Book Ali

[Edit: Actually, this was meant to go in another thread about boxing. So I am editing it to make it a versus thread.]

Some have claimed that certain heroes can beat Ali because he is a real person and comic book characters have the advantage of stretching reality and accomplishing amazing feats.

Well, I for one am going by the rules of the forum.

This is *comic book* Muhammad Ali (that is implicit in this forum). Um, the one that beat Superman...

Who is the most powerful hero that Muhammad Ali (in his prime) can beat in a boxing match of pure boxing skill? The hero is stripped of her or his powers and can only use boxing. This pecular set-up is inspired by another thread.

So let's apply the comic book vs. real person logic to discussing the comic book version of Ali.

Whatcha think now? 😉

(p.s. Notice Lucille Ball underneath Superman's shin?)

Originally posted by seaapple
[Edit: Actually, this was meant to go in another thread about boxing. So I am editing it to make it a versus thread.]

Some have claimed that certain heroes can beat Ali because he is a real person and comic book characters have the advantage of stretching reality and accomplishing amazing feats.

Well, I for one am going by the rules of the forum.

This is *comic book* Muhammad Ali (that is implicit in this forum). Um, the one that beat Superman...

Who is the most powerful hero that Muhammad Ali (in his prime) can beat in a boxing match of pure boxing skill? The hero is stripped of her or his powers and can only use boxing. This pecular set-up is inspired by another thread.

So let's apply your own logic to discussing the comic book version of Ali.

Whatcha think now? 😉

(p.s. Notice Lucille Ball underneath Superman's shin?)

What does that response even mean?

Originally posted by HueyFreeman
ALi Bu Mal Ye

The reason why Ali loses against most top tier comic based fighters is simple.

it comes down to experience. The boxing thread had Ali vs:

Batman: a guy who trained for god knows how long in every martial art known to man, and uses that knowledge to win life and death fights on a daily basis

Captain America: A guy who has been fighting in his prime (due to the SS serum, he's been at peak human performance levels for about two decades) longer than is humanly possible, using his skills to defeat masters of every fighting style known to man in life and death fights on a daily basis. He (and batman, I suppose) have literally beaten down foes who can bench press buildings on pure skill.

Wolverine: has about 100 years or so of experience and has mastered and fought against all known fighting styles- again in life or death fights on a daily basis for somewhere between 75 and 100 years.

In terms of years of experience and sheer number of foes he's come up against, Ali is outclassed. There's literally nothing he could come up with that Batman, Wolverine, and Cap haven't seen before. Hell, they've probably seen him on tape. His strategies and fights are well documented.

He was fighting for a belt vs. foreman. he's never had to fight for his life in the ring, and that makes all the difference.

And as for the Superman vs. Ali issue where Ali won? Superman's fighting skills were garbage until recently. He wasn't anywhere near the skill level of Thor, Wonder Woman, Cap, or Batman because he didn't have to be.

Two points to consider + one general remark (this is a general comment, not aimed at any of the specific characters mentioned above):

1) Boxing is a sport and it is different from all out fighting. For example, hurdling is different than sprinting. A person who is a way faster sprinter who doesn't know hurdling form will get beat by a mediocre hurdler. Same thing with basketball or tennis, it would be hard for a hero to beat a top level person in those sports without using powers. Boxing is close to fighting in some ways, but in others it is a very specialized skill. So to beat Ali the character will most likely need to actually know how to box. This is not a fight for survival, it's a boxing match. It's the sweet science.

2) Take a look at the comic book Ali and realize that he is far more than just the regular guy (fighting aliens, etc.). So we have to extrapolate about what the comic book Ali can actually do. Do a google search about the comic if you have not read it.

Finally, for the record (and this may not be an issue with people on this board but with comic book writers) it is ridiculous to say a character has mastered every known fighting style. Simply there is not enough time even in 100 years for a character to have traveled to every location and to have trained sufficiently to have seen all the different movements. A character like Taskmaster certainly could do better at this because it is part of his power. But Batman? That's just silly. It totally demeans the nature of the character as a gritty, very intelligent fighter/detective who was trained intensively by a master.

Some characters can certainly box, but let's distinguish fighters and brawlers from boxers.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
👆 The response is something that the people of Zaire said to cheer Ali when he fought George Foreman in the Rumble in the Jungle. it means "Ali, kill him!"

Thanks! Cool!

Muhammad Ali owns.

He beats everyone's ass, even the Anti-monitor.

I was one of the people saying that Ali couldn't face up to a comicbook character, and I gave my reasons on that thread (thus there is no reason rehashing them here).

Furthermore I stated that Ali vs Balboa (real world vs fictional movie) character was more 'realistic,' because even though movie characters are 'stretched' they are not so to the same extent as comic book characters (for the most part, with some particular exceptions). Movie Rambo will appear to be always fighting people who simply cannot aim, but comicbook Robin will be a teen who is flipping across rooftops and taking out teams of trained special-ops soldiers. Major difference ....but no need to rehash that.

Anyways, on this particular thread .....you have a comicbook Ali.

Now, I have to assume that as a comicbook character he has also been idealized. As in, the sheer apex of who Ali (the person) was at his prime, PLUS more.

Thus this is quite different from real-world Ali (in much the same way that a ninja in fiction is much much MUCH better than what real ninjitsu has to offer).

However, having a picture showing Ali vs Superman doesn't mean much. That is a fight between the boxing champion versus a normal human man (Superman did not have powers), so what exactly does that prove?

Absolutely nothing. It is even more ludicrous than the Superman vs Spiderman fight (whcih posters, also, tend to 'forget' to mention that Superman's powers had ebbed).

It woould be like me having the Hulk fight an Olympic level Judo exponent, and then forgeting to mention that it is not 'exactly' the Hulk but rather Bruce Banner with some green makeup. Major difference.

Anyways, Ali as a comic book character garners more credit, but the comic of him against Superman is as valid as a bucket of warm spit in regards to showing how good he is. Sure, it does show that Ali is a comicbook character in that respect, but having him facing off against Superman doesn't add any extra credibility to that fact (unless he was facing off against a powered Superman, in which case Ali would be FAR ABOVE his current status ....the most one could say is that he is what would fall under 'peak human' status, which by the way is pretty high up in comics .....just not high enough to tangle with heat-vision emitting, solar energy absorbing Kryptonians .....unless those Kryptonians have no powers at that moment).

On the other thread: Ali had no chance. Not even in a boxing match.

Comicbook Ali still wouldn't win. Even with the other characters not having 'powers' (e.g. healing factors, adamantium skeletons, etc etc) he would still be facing people who are better than him. They may have the same skill in boxing, but they would be faster, have reactions times that are far better honed, etc etc etc.

It would basically be comicbook Ali vs (say) Batman (whose abilities in boxing would be at comicbook Ali due to his training by WildCat, but who ALSO has all that combat experience and constant exposure to danger that has simply honed his senses to godlike levels. For instance, he has dodged bullets simply by feeling the over-pressure of air as the bullet approaches ....stupid as heck, but that is what you get in comics. He is also good enough in boxing to be able to use it against Richard Dragon, whom as you may know is one of the best martial arts experts in DC ....basically DCU's version of Shang Chi).

Ali (comicbook or not) would still be at a disadvantage. However, as a comic character at least it would not be a slaughter.

1) All threads here are about comic book characters. It is in the rules. No threads are about real people.

2) I mentioned that Superman vs. Ali was under a red sun. And this thread is about heroes without powers anyway, so that is perfectly clear.

3) Ali did much more than just beat Superman in that comic cited above.

4) Ali's reflexes, seeing as he was the best boxer, are quite exemplary. And he dedicated his life to the form of boxing itself. Anyone who has engaged in competitive sports or martial arts knows it is not just a matter of speed or reflexes. It is anticipation, savvy, strategy, etc. That is the point of my examples with tennis, basketball, etc. There is something to be said for mastering a sport and dedicating one's life to it. Brawling does not suffice for boxing.

5) This thread asks which heroes people think that Ali could beat (without powers).

6) The argument that a character wins because of being a comic book version is like the argument that a character looses just because of being a villain. In most comics heroes always win in the end. Or the argument that the most popular character would win. I am more interested in logical arguments.

7) Basically, Muhammad Ali is like a peak human in the particular art of boxing. We could almost say that is his power. Like other comic book characters might be top martial artists, detectives, inventors, or whatever. Ali was one of the best ever. Without powers I just do not credit those other characters with the same level of mastery in this domain.

8) I have seen 70 year old martial arts masters complete dismantle young agile practitioners. I have seen very slight tiny women defeat muscular guys who are faster and stronger. I think that some people here underestimate the value of true training in a particular form and overestimate the value of related endeavors. Also, logically I do not believe that many characters have the time or experience invested in sparring in the boxing ring that Ali does. Otherwise they wouldn't have had time to be heroes.

9) Superman is no slouch at fighting, despite his powers. He put up a good fight with "the greatest."

I say that perhaps someone like Hawkman could beat Ali because of *lifetimes* of experience -- but even then perhaps not if he simply doesn't know boxing. Boxing experience is worth more here than purely reflexes or strength. But not Wolverine or Batman. Remember that there are plenty of restrictions and illegal strikes in boxing and it isn't just about beating someone up. It is technical. I am sure many characters wouldn't even know the rules and would be disqualified. Or that Ali could outpoint many of them.

I don't think he would beat all heroes. But I don't want the value of focused dedication to a form to be undermined.

Want me to get the Ali/Superman fight up?

Originally posted by Switch 07
Want me to get the Ali/Superman fight up?

Sure!

Ali beats Beatman in a boxing match. as im sure batman can do alot of flipping, kicks and holds, but thats not boxing and Ali knows boxing. throwing a punch isnt boxing and i doubt he has added the 'art' of boxing to his crime fighting skills. even if he has ALi still has the upper hand.

Wolverine gets punchy. KO.

She-Hulk has some boxing exp. but without her powers its not happening.

galactus beats ali. cant evade that punch.

Scans coming soon.

Courtesy of the scan master.

Ali is teh poor mans version of Apollo Creed

Thanks for the scans! Superman is a quick quick learner, but Ali turns him into Eric Esch (look him up) on the canvas.

Originally posted by Switch 07

Courtesy of the scan master.

Originally posted by Switch 07

Courtesy of the scan master.

thast embarrassing

Originally posted by spidey-dude
there they screwed up. superman should have knocked the monkey out for good

are you kidding me? "monkey?" reported for racisim, i dont tolerate that bullsh*t