Split Personality Pardox

Started by leonheartmm2 pages

Originally posted by inimalist
what if it could be shown that the way you remember something is based on who you are as an individual?

lol

god I wish I could post articles

lol. that is why is said

your memories, "COUPLED" with your qualia are the most important things that give rise to YOU.

i had exactly the above thing in mind when i said that. you are confusing, memory with "remembering". memory is a physical store of CONTENT. remembeRING is an active process where that content is seen through a perspective and a qualia about it is formed. i hae no problem beleiving the statements that different individuals remember differently, because rememberING involves qualia too. 😄

Originally posted by leonheartmm
lol. that is why is said

i had exactly the above thing in mind when i said that. you are confusing, memory with "remembering". memory is a physical store of CONTENT. remembeRING is an active process where that content is seen through a perspective and a qualia about it is formed. i hae no problem beleiving the statements that different individuals remember differently, because rememberING involves qualia too. 😄

hmmmmmmm

As a matter of tact, I don't think its worth disagreeing with you. Maybe I should point out that we aproach this problem from VASTLY different perspectives and thus, we will have different terms and explanations for very similar statements.

I don't like the word qualia. I just don't, I'll post something in a second that somewhat explains where I and other perceptual scientists (ooooh, look, I'm a big man now) approach the issue from. In that respect I pretty much have to disagree with what you are saying because of the wording. But I think the nature of what you are saying is pretty bang on... if a little more dualistic in its wording.

Of qualia:

Two philosophical objections

Two further matters should be addressed concerning what we can expect from a theory. First, a common philosophical complaint is that any neurobiological theory of consciousness will always leave something out – something crucial. It will always leave out the feeling itself — the feeling of what it is like to be aware, to see blue, smell mint, and so on (Nagel, 1974; Chalmers, 1996). These are so-called qualia — the experiences themselves — and these are what are important about consciousness. Pursuing this point further, the philosopher may go on to conclude that no science can ever really explain qualia because it cannot demonstrate what it is like to see blue if you have never seen blue; consciousness is forever beyond the reach of scientific understanding.

What is the merit in this objection? It is lacking merit, for if you look closely, you will find that it rests on a misunderstanding. The argument presumes that if a conscious phenomenon, say smelling mint, were genuinely explained by a scientific theory, then a person who understood that theory should be caused to have that experience; e.g., should be caused to smell mint. Surely, however, the expectation is unwarranted. Why should anyone expect that understanding the theory must result in the production of the phenomenon the theory addresses? Consider an analogy. If a student really understands the nature of pregnancy by learning all there is to know about the causal nature of pregnancy, no one would expect the student to become pregnant thereby. If a student learns and really understands Newton's laws, we should not expect the student, like Newton's fabled apple, to thereby fall down. To smell mint, a certain range of neuronal activities have to obtain, particularly, let us assume, in olfactory cortex. Understanding that the olfactory cortex must be activated in manner ? will not itself activate the olfactory cortex in manner ?. We are asking too much of a neuroscientific theory if we ask it not only to explain and predict, but also to cause its target phenomenon, namely the smell of mint, simply by virtue of understanding the theory.

A second and related complaint raised by certain philosophers is that even if neuroscience were to discover with what brain states being aware of a burning pain on one's left ear is identical, we would still not understand why just those brain states are identical with precisely that sensation, as opposed, say, to feeling a desire to void. Neuroscience, it will be averred, will never be able to explain why conscious states Y = brain states X, rather than say, brain state Z. For those who are keen on qualia as metaphysical simples forever beyond the scope of science, the next step may be to infer that we cannot ever hope to understand that identity in neurobiological terms (Chalmers, 1996). Awareness, the claim goes, will always be ineffable and metaphysically basic. This means neuroscience cannot ever really explain consciousness.

This complaint too rests on a misunderstanding. What is an example where a science — any subfield of science — explains why X = Y? Not how we know or why we believe that X = Y, but why X is identical to Y, rather than to Z. Using the examples already at hand, the corresponding questions would be these: why is temperature mean molecular kinetic energy, rather than, say, caloric fluid or something else entirely? Why is visible light actually electromagnetic radiation rather than, say, something else entirely, say, “intrinsic photonicness”? By and large science does not offer explanations for fundamental identities. Rather, the discovery is that two descriptions refer to one and the same thing — or that two different measuring instruments are in fact measuring one and the same thing. Why is that thing, the thing it is? It just is. Science discovers fundamental identities, but the identities it discovers just are the way things are. There is no fundamental set of laws from which to derive that temperature is mean molecular kinetic energy or light is electromagnetic radiation.

Reflection shows this logical point to be acknowledged in an everyday setting. If someone discovers that The Morning Star (Venus) is identical to The Evening Star (Venus), he will explain why he believes this by citing his evidence. But if asked, “why is The Morning Star (Venus) identical to The Evening Star (Venus)”, no answer is appropriate; that is just the way the world is. The question itself is based on the false assumption that identities ought to follow from general laws. But they don’t. We may get an explanation of why people mistakenly thought what they saw in the dusk was not the same as the planet they saw in the dawn, and how they came to realize that what they saw in the dusk is identical to what they saw in the dawn. There is, however, no explanation of why Venus is Venus; of why the Morning Star is identical to the Evening Star. It just is. Or, to put it as the medieval philosophers sagely noted, everything is what it is, and not another thing. Correspondingly, assuming we discover that a certain pattern of activity Naj is identical to smelling mint, there will be no further explanation of why that pattern of activity is identical to smelling mint (why Naj = C).

Such merit as there is in the complaints probably comes merely to this: given the current state of neuroscience, it is very hard to predict what the explanation of conscious phenomena will look like — very hard. But so what? It is always hard to predict the course of a science, and especially hard to predict what an immature science will look like when it matures.

exerpt from:

Churchland, Patricia Smith. (2005) A neurophilosophical slant on consciousness research. Progress in Brain Research, 149, 285-293.

i read the above. but arent they actually incompatibility with the sceitific way of investigating, rather than objection to the "existance" of qualia?

in my oppinion, there is one very basic flaw/unexplained part to MY interpretation of qualia{which can be critiqued}. that is, IF qualia is non mystical in its nature, and is just concerned with SEEING, expiriences, and is DIFFERENT{even if dependant} on physical neurobiological processes, than HOW can it affect our "physical" brains in a way, as to make IT behaviourally, MAKE an argument for the existance of qualia{as my body is making right now through typing these words}.

for all intensive purposes, it would be a quiet non physical homunculus SEEING expiriences, but being seperate from the body, it would not be able to influence its actions. and yet my physical body/brain is here making the argument. which indicates that my qualia{if it exists} is actually, also giviing feedback to my PHYSICAL body.

the other MORE FUNDAMENTAL question that arises from this and the very concept of qualia is that, "WHY does qualia exist to begin with. i.e. WHY does the subjective expirience of stimuli and SELF awareness exist to begin with. if you look at machines, or other physical phenomenon, they have cause and affect relationships with other physical phenomenon. there is no reason to believe{nor evidence} to assume that a HIGHER, virtual, self defined construct is created as a RESULT of those phenomenon. but the same definition isnt enough for humans, because we OURSELVES are evidence{if to no1 but our own self} for the existance of the said phenomenon. so then why, why does qualia exist when there is no reason for its existance?

{ofcourse, the easy answer would be a mystical soul, but that is equal to forfeting the quest for an answer and attributing things partially illogically, to things which can never be understood or deefined by logic. but its a fact that the mystical explanation would give an explanation for how qualia can INFLUENCE the physical body{which it shudnt }, and a reason for the EXISTANCE of a virtual/higher conciousness, which i can not currently find adequate answers for in physics}

Lol, you really need to argue about qualia eh?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
i read the above.

really? Both of your points below are a general rehashing of the two points that are addressed above...

Originally posted by leonheartmm
but arent they actually incompatibility with the sceitific way of investigating, rather than objection to the "existance" of qualia?

They? you need to clarify this sentence. What I get is:

"As opposed to qualia being shown as incorrect by science, aren't they contrary to scientific investigation?"

And ya, you would be correct. It is comparable to things like the crystal spheres of the heavens or the body humors being responsible for health conditions. It is ancient philosophy that is useless when compared to the discoveries of modern science. Qualia fail Occam's Razor.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
in my oppinion, there is one very basic flaw/unexplained part to MY interpretation of qualia{which can be critiqued}.

oh, well, YOUR interpretation of qualia 🙄

Science already has addressed the other philosophers' qualia arguments, but ol leo, he has discovered an argument for qualia that will shake the foundations!!!!

Originally posted by leonheartmm
that is, IF qualia is non mystical in its nature,

This premise is incorrect. Qualia are not just non-mystical in nature, but entirely WRONG in describing the perceptual processes. While we do "experience" things, I would like you to show me what evidence you have that supports the idea that our "conscious perception" is composed of "qualia".

Originally posted by leonheartmm
and is just concerned with SEEING, expiriences, and is DIFFERENT{even if dependant} on physical neurobiological processes,

This is a non-sequitur. I actually don't understand it. Is this a continuation of "if qualia is non mystical in its nature"?

Please provide some evidence that shows qualia are different from physical neurological mechanisms of perception?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
than HOW can it affect our "physical" brains in a way, as to make IT behaviourally, MAKE an argument for the existance of qualia{as my body is making right now through typing these words}.

I have no idea what this means.... I am assuming it is something like "How do our perceptual processes affect our behaviour".

Well, here is the textbook for the course I am a TA for: http://www.amazon.com/Sensation-Perception-Media-Bruce-Goldstein/dp/0534639917/ref=pd_sim_b_img_1/104-5025115-1400725

You are over complicating your argument. Qualia are not necessary for perception.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
for all intensive purposes, it would be a quiet non physical homunculus SEEING expiriences, but being seperate from the body, it would not be able to influence its actions. and yet my physical body/brain is here making the argument. which indicates that my qualia{if it exists} is actually, also giviing feedback to my PHYSICAL body.

that argument might have been acceptable in the 1400s, but is totally nonsense in light of modern science.

The perceptual "binding problem" does not require a homunculus.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
the other MORE FUNDAMENTAL question that arises from this and the very concept of qualia is that, "WHY does qualia exist to begin with. i.e. WHY does the subjective expirience of stimuli and SELF awareness exist to begin with.

I think you should read what I copied from that article again. This is almost a verbatim regurgitation of the second argument that they show to be a complete misunderstanding of science.

You might as well ask why light exists to begin with. Those are not scientific questions.

Unless (which I know you aren't) you are asking for the bio-evolutionary process for consciousness and subjective experience.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
if you look at machines, or other physical phenomenon, they have cause and affect relationships with other physical phenomenon. there is no reason to believe{nor evidence} to assume that a HIGHER, virtual, self defined construct is created as a RESULT of those phenomenon.

1) sure there is. We live in a universe that follows physical principals. The burden would in fact be on you to show that a "Higher, virtual, self defined construct" cannot be created by physical phenomena.

2) Consciousness is certainly not a "Higher, virtual, self defined construct"

Originally posted by leonheartmm
but the same definition isnt enough for humans, because we OURSELVES are evidence{if to no1 but our own self} for the existance of the said phenomenon. so then why, why does qualia exist when there is no reason for its existance?

ummm, do you want to maybe back that up?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
{ofcourse, the easy answer would be a mystical soul, but that is equal to forfeting the quest for an answer and attributing things partially illogically, to things which can never be understood or deefined by logic.

as is saying that perception is composed of qualia

Originally posted by leonheartmm
but its a fact that the mystical explanation would give an explanation for how qualia can INFLUENCE the physical body{which it shudnt }, and a reason for the EXISTANCE of a virtual/higher conciousness, which i can not currently find adequate answers for in physics}

ya, no it wouldn't.

Look dude, if you want to believe crazy philosophical nonsense, far be it from me to bring you down with science. But really, if you want to talk about neurology or psychology, you should at least be moderately well read in the subject.

And sort of off topic... Where are you from, what is your native language?

Originally posted by inimalist
Lol, you really need to argue about qualia eh?

really? Both of your points below are a general rehashing of the two points that are addressed above...

They? you need to clarify this sentence. What I get is:

[b]"As opposed to qualia being shown as incorrect by science, aren't they contrary to scientific investigation?"

And ya, you would be correct. It is comparable to things like the crystal spheres of the heavens or the body humors being responsible for health conditions. It is ancient philosophy that is useless when compared to the discoveries of modern science. Qualia fail Occam's Razor.

oh, well, YOUR interpretation of qualia 🙄

Science already has addressed the other philosophers' qualia arguments, but ol leo, he has discovered an argument for qualia that will shake the foundations!!!!

This premise is incorrect. Qualia are not just non-mystical in nature, but entirely WRONG in describing the perceptual processes. While we do "experience" things, I would like you to show me what evidence you have that supports the idea that our "conscious perception" is composed of "qualia".

This is a non-sequitur. I actually don't understand it. Is this a continuation of "if qualia is non mystical in its nature"?

Please provide some evidence that shows qualia are different from physical neurological mechanisms of perception?

I have no idea what this means.... I am assuming it is something like "How do our perceptual processes affect our behaviour".

Well, here is the textbook for the course I am a TA for: http://www.amazon.com/Sensation-Perception-Media-Bruce-Goldstein/dp/0534639917/ref=pd_sim_b_img_1/104-5025115-1400725

You are over complicating your argument. Qualia are not necessary for perception.

that argument might have been acceptable in the 1400s, but is totally nonsense in light of modern science.

The perceptual "binding problem" does not require a homunculus.

I think you should read what I copied from that article again. This is almost a verbatim regurgitation of the second argument that they show to be a complete misunderstanding of science.

You might as well ask why light exists to begin with. Those are not scientific questions.

Unless (which I know you aren't) you are asking for the bio-evolutionary process for consciousness and subjective experience.

1) sure there is. We live in a universe that follows physical principals. The burden would in fact be on you to show that a "Higher, virtual, self defined construct" cannot be created by physical phenomena.

2) Consciousness is certainly not a "Higher, virtual, self defined construct"

ummm, do you want to maybe back that up?

as is saying that perception is composed of qualia

ya, no it wouldn't.

Look dude, if you want to believe crazy philosophical nonsense, far be it from me to bring you down with science. But really, if you want to talk about neurology or psychology, you should at least be moderately well read in the subject.

And sort of off topic... Where are you from, what is your native language? [/B]

Holy shit balls. Where the hell did you find the time to type all of that out/

I bet there is something profound or ridiculously awesome in that post...however, I don't have the time. 🙁

Originally posted by dadudemon
Holy shit balls. Where the hell did you find the time to type all of that out/

I bet there is something profound or ridiculously awesome in that post...however, I don't have the time. 🙁

who is the person in your siggy smoking the huge thing? if you dont mind me asking? is it sum1 you know?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Holy shit balls. Where the hell did you find the time to type all of that out/

I bet there is something profound or ridiculously awesome in that post...however, I don't have the time. 🙁

lol, I'd say it's probably longer than it is profound

Ya, and I have no life whatsoever

Originally posted by leonheartmm
who is the person in your siggy smoking the huge thing? if you dont mind me asking? is it sum1 you know?

I have no idea who that is but it looks like Alyssa Milano when she cut her hair short.

Originally posted by inimalist
lol, I'd say it's probably longer than it is profound

Ya, and I have no life whatsoever

😆

dude! you pwned yourself!!! At least you have honest self esteem.

I will read it at work tomorrow and make a comment on it...I am too busy studying right now.

i dont think its alyssa milano. it looks like sum1 i knew.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
i dont think its alyssa milano. it looks like sum1 i knew.

It is NOT Alissa Milano....it only looks like her. You think you've seen this lady before?.....did you see her smoke the that thing?

Originally posted by dadudemon
.....did you see her smoke the that thing?

no, but I've seen her smoke MY thing

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH

no, it just looks like sum1 i know/knew. ofcourse, it isnt her, her features are a bit different, but still, the resemblance is there. just asking really, if u knew her or not.

How is this a paradox?