Surfer's best showings under his own power vs. Thanos's Best showings

Originally posted by Ouallada

I like to think that thinking for myself instead of general accepted status quo creates great debates and great thinkers.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Question, The machine Thanos made only for himself to power up becuz according to moon dragon" he is power" that surfer powered while weakened means what then? That I am indeed correct. Surfer is much closer to Thanos in power than anyone wants to admit. And he is just a big jobber. Especially since he did pretty well against the Runner. And thanos didnt' do all that well against the runner. He needed a bit of prep.

I like to think that thinking for myself instead of general accepted status quo creates great debates and great thinkers.

Are we going to accept an ambiguous quote like "he is power" as validation of anything?

To be honest, it was never stated what level of power the machine required. However, I can concede the point that surfer reached the level of power required. Before going any further, my thoughts on that particular issue of annihilation are well known. Deus ex machina everywhere. Things happened because they needed to happen. In any case, a swallow does not make a summer, and using this one instance to support your entire argument is pretty weak. Do you think surfer > Thor? Do you think Hulk > Thor?

The issue of jobbing as is contextually used on these boards has it that the two parties must at least be comparable in power. Crooks getting hammered by Spiderman isn't a case of jobbing on their part -- they were simply outclassed. Same with surfer and Thanos. The exception proves the norm, and the fact that only one real instance shows that surfer is anywhere near Thanos' level (read: not necessarily surpassing) when the two are directly compared shows that your example is the exception that proves our norm.

As for the runner, I really really doubt surfer was taking it easy. Especially since the elders wanted to kill G. If anything, the runner took surfer pretty lightly. Thanos needed prep and gems to beat the runner, but that is more a feat for runner than it is for Thanos.

I agree that inducing revolutionary change breaks status quo, but at times, people keep expounding a fact simply because it is true. Mothers keep telling their children to look left, look right and look left again because it is a required precaution. We remember Jordan as the best ever basketball player because it is true. Occam's razor.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Only in your silly lil mind. I actually think Surfer is much closer in power to Thanos. And it's not to put Thanos down, but to up play surfer and bring to light how everyone jobbers to thanos.

Everyone jobs to Thanos, certainly, but power has nothing to do with it. He just plain is more powerful than the hero set. The jobbing comes into play when Starlin wants to play up his intelligence, but Starlin isn't particularly clever himself, so the only way he can do it is by dumbing down everyone Thanos comes in contact with.

The same thing happens with Adam Warlock.

To be fair to Starlin, he defined Thanos and Warlock like no one else did. The clone retcons were because Thanos was so laughably out of character in some of those appearances. Also, if it is true that Thanos is plainly more powerful that top tier heroes, it isn't jobbing, but simply playing out the expected outcome.

I never understood why SS couldnt just smack Thanos around. Its like every top tier thanos fights gets a bad case of "PIS" or something. By feats alone, there is no way Thanos should be even able to touch SS...but I guess the power of bad writting is Thanos real power.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
I never understood why SS couldnt just smack Thanos around. Its like every top tier thanos fights gets a bad case of "PIS" or something. By feats alone, there is no way Thanos should be even able to touch SS...but I guess the power of bad writting is Thanos real power.

That's because comparing feats is the most sophomoric, simple-minded way of viewing comics.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
I never understood why SS couldnt just smack Thanos around. Its like every top tier thanos fights gets a bad case of "PIS" or something. By feats alone, there is no way Thanos should be even able to touch SS...but I guess the power of bad writting is Thanos real power.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Also, if it is true that Thanos is plainly more powerful that top tier heroes, it isn't jobbing, but simply playing out the expected outcome.

That's what I said. The jobbing isn't in how power levels compare.

The jobbing is that the only way Starlin is able to portray exceptional intelligence is to make every other character exceptionally dumb.

That's the problem in writing a super amazing genius character when the writer himself isn't a super amazing genius. It is pretty easy to portray scientific genius by having the characters invent fantastic devices and perform "feats of intelligence" like with Reed Richards. A writer doesn't need to know how to build a time machine to write a character that does know how. But it is considerably harder to portray intelligence that is based more on cunning than on scientific know-how, because the writer needs to be cunning himself in order to portray it.

Originally posted by KK the Great
That's what I said. The jobbing isn't in how power levels compare.

The jobbing is that the only way Starlin is able to portray exceptional intelligence is to make every other character exceptionally dumb.

That's the problem in writing a super amazing genius character when the writer himself isn't a super amazing genius. It is pretty easy to portray scientific genius by having the characters invent fantastic devices and perform "feats of intelligence" like with Reed Richards. A writer doesn't need to know how to build a time machine to write a character that does know how. But it is considerably harder to portray intelligence that is based more on cunning than on scientific know-how, because the writer needs to be cunning himself in order to portray it.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Anyone who watched death proof can draw sufficient evidence that a man cannot realistically write female small talk. We both know what Starlin wanted with Warlock and Thanos. I hate to say this, but in this case, the ends justify the means to a certain extent.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Are we going to accept an ambiguous quote like "he is power" as validation of anything?

To be honest, it was never stated what level of power the machine required. However, I can concede the point that surfer reached the level of power required. Before going any further, my thoughts on that particular issue of annihilation are well known. Deus ex machina everywhere. Things happened because they needed to happen. In any case, a swallow does not make a summer, and using this one instance to support your entire argument is pretty weak. Do you think surfer > Thor? Do you think Hulk > Thor?

The issue of jobbing as is contextually used on these boards has it that the two parties must at least be comparable in power. Crooks getting hammered by Spiderman isn't a case of jobbing on their part -- they were simply outclassed. Same with surfer and Thanos. The exception proves the norm, and the fact that only one real instance shows that surfer is anywhere near Thanos' level (read: not necessarily surpassing) when the two are directly compared shows that your example is the exception that proves our norm.

As for the runner, I really really doubt surfer was taking it easy. Especially since the elders wanted to kill G. If anything, the runner took surfer pretty lightly. Thanos needed prep and gems to beat the runner, but that is more a feat for runner than it is for Thanos.

I agree that inducing revolutionary change breaks status quo, but at times, people keep expounding a fact simply because it is true. Mothers keep telling their children to look left, look right and look left again because it is a required precaution. We remember Jordan as the best ever basketball player because it is true. Occam's razor.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
What one must do in thinking about just how powerful the surfer is, is look at the out of combat feats he performs as well as the combat feats. In conjuction with the Thanos machine, which Thanos did build only for himself to power, and extrapolate that the surfer is indeed a big jobber.

So, is surfer > Thor and hulk > Thor?

As for the machine, I willingly concede the point, although I dislike the context in which the feat took place. That still does not negate everything else that Thanos has done to place him above surfer.

Surfer losing to metas is jobbing. Surfer losing to lower heralds could be jobbing at a stretch. Losing consistently to a being higher than himself is not jobbing.

Originally posted by Ouallada
So, is surfer > Thor and hulk > Thor?

As for the machine, I willingly concede the point, although I dislike the context in which the feat took place. That still does not negate everything else that Thanos has done to place him above surfer.

Surfer losing to metas is jobbing. Surfer losing to lower heralds could be jobbing at a stretch. Losing consistently to a being higher than himself is not jobbing.

IT is jobbering if Surfer has defeated beings as powerful or more than Thanos. IT's also jobbering if Surfer acts like and idiot and uses no create use of force, no advantage of mobility, ect.

Surfer and THor are somewhere in the same hood of power. IMO. Hulk is far superior to surfer or Thor in strength. But that is about it. When Thor acts a buffoon and tries to go toe to toe with hulk in pnuching power, he loses.

Originally posted by Ouallada
As for the machine, I willingly concede the point, although I dislike the context in which the feat took place.

I wouldn't concede that so quickly, seeing as nvr's logic is as flawed as ever.

If Superman uses a really heavy key for his Fortress of Solitude as a safeguard against anyone else using it, but then Martian Manhunter lifts the key, is that proof positive that J'onn is as strong as Superman, or is it just that he's close enough to be able to lift something that Superman can also lift?

There's no reason to think that Thanos made this machine such that he would have to strain himself to power it. If he can casually power it, then it stands to reason that someone as powerful as Silver Surfer could also power it.

So because Surfer has more feats than Thanos (because Thanos only ha about 200 appearances or so), that means he's better?
And, we're not allowed to contrast the characters they both fought which actually tells of power, rather than this thread, which makes no sense, and only asks of high showings of Surfer in which Thanos never got to try his hand at it.

"Don't compare the two... only use the highest showings of both (but you're not allowed to use fights that compare the two in overall power) of them, while I ignore the context of Surfer's feats, and say he jobbed to everyone."

Pretty much how I see this thread. 🙂

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
IT is jobbering if Surfer has defeated beings as powerful or more than Thanos. IT's also jobbering if Surfer acts like and idiot and uses no create use of force, no advantage of mobility, ect.

Surfer and THor are somewhere in the same hood of power. IMO. Hulk is far superior to surfer or Thor in strength. But that is about it. When Thor acts a buffoon and tries to go toe to toe with hulk in pnuching power, he loses.

Thanos has also defeated beings more powerful than Surfer. His individual powerset negates surfer to a huge degree as well.

Surfer has claimed Mjolnir to be more powerful than his PC. Should we debate Thor vs SS simply based on that one feat, even though a very good case can be made for SS > Thor? Hulk has smacked Thor around pretty good in the past. Is Hulk > THor just based on an isolated showing? Is Hercules stronger than AS Superman because he lifted the weight of the world on his shoulders? I'm sure you are a pretty intelligent person, so I think you can see where I am going with this. A single instance whereby surfer has come close to Thanos in power does not mean much in the whole scheme of things.

You watch basketball? Is David Robinson > Jordan based on the fact that he scored 73pts in one game compared to Jordan's 69?

Originally posted by KK the Great
I wouldn't concede that so quickly, seeing as nvr's logic is as flawed as ever.

If Superman uses a rally heavy key for his Fortress of Solitude as a safeguard against anyone else using it, but then Martian Manhunter lifts the key, is that proof positive that J'onn is as strong as Superman, or is it just that he's close enough to be able to lift something that Superman can also lift?

There's no reason to think that Thanos made this machine such that he would have to strain himself to power it. If he can casually power it, then it stands to reason that someone as powerful as Silver Surfer could also power it.

I can see where he is coming from, but I have already stated that we do not know how much power is needed exactly for anyone to power up the machine. If he wants to assume that it means SS is within Thanos' range this once, I can give him that. It gives my argument that much more credence when an ambiguous example is all the upholders of the other notion have to hold on to.

So, can we conclude that Nvr's spite fails yet?

Originally posted by Soljer
So, can we conclude that Nvr's spite fails yet?

didn't SS absorb the ultimate power of a GL ring once?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
I haven't seen Thanos fight T and A.

Also, it is well known that Thor is the son of the Skyfather and the elder Goddess and the reason was so that he could be superior to his father and all asgardians physically. And I know Odin can amp his physical abilities. that is pretty much standard now adays.

also even if odin was weaker then thor in strength that would not make him a 60 tonner.

thor is well over 100 tons.

so that make Odin still well over a 100 tons