Cartoon Galactus vs. Justice League Unlimited

Originally posted by Ouallada
When I go to the firing range, I hit approximately nine in ten shots. Am I expected to repeat under combat stress? Shall we use feats in dojos instead of combat feats now? As we have an actual combat between the two, I would prefer to use that.

In terror beyond, all the magic he channeled was dispersed pretty easily by hawkgirl. I just rewatched that part to refresh my memory.

He was just standing there doing nothing when she got close to him. 🙂

There were plenty of things he could have done in that scenario to defeat her.

Still, I really don't know what you're trying to prove with this. Does cartoon Galactus have a mace made out of nth metal? Didn't think so.

Originally posted by batdude123
He was just standing there doing nothing when she got close to him. 🙂

There were plenty of things he could have done in that scenario to defeat her.

Still, I really don't know what you're trying to prove with this. Does cartoon Galactus have a mace made out of nth metal? Didn't think so.

He was firing a blast at her after his numerous magical spells failed. She was closing in on him and was about to hammer him when WW held her back.

As mentioned, he already tried plenty of things, and none worked.

The original point was that Fate would not have such a profound effect on a battle with G as nvr thought, but the conversation digressed when you interjected by saying that Fate BFRed harkgirl's mace, which I assume is supposed to invalidate my earlier point about his low showing.

Originally posted by Ouallada
He was firing a blast at her after his numerous magical spells failed. She was closing in on him and was about to hammer him when WW held her back.

She had him by the throat, iirc before she was going to make the final strike. As she lifted the mace ready to club him, he could have easily fired a magical blast at her for the KO. Her durability was pathetic in JLU.

Originally posted by Ouallada
As mentioned, he already tried plenty of things, and none worked.

A teleportation spell could have worked perfectly, or he could have sent the mace to a pocket dimension just like he did here in the beginning of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiywcCk6_l8

The reason none of that happened was simply to show how her nth metal mace disrupts magic. 🙂

Originally posted by Ouallada
The original point was that Fate would not have such a profound effect on a battle with G as nvr thought

Which is a facetious point if you think about it. Cartoon Galactus doesn't have a magical disrupting weapon he carries around with him. Therefore, this 'point' you're trying to make is moot. 🙂

Originally posted by batdude123
She had him by the throat, iirc before she was going to make the final strike. As she lifted the mace ready to club him, he could have easily fired a magical blast at her for the KO. Her durability was pathetic in JLU.

A teleportation spell could have worked perfectly, or he could have sent the mace to a pocket dimension just like he did here in the beginning of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiywcCk6_l8

The reason none of that happened was simply to show how her nth metal mace disrupts magic. 🙂

Which is a facetious point if you think about it. Cartoon Galactus doesn't have a magical disrupting weapon he carries around with him. Therefore, this 'point' you're trying to make is moot. 🙂

And she could have simply clubbed him in the face without lifting it so high into the air. Arguing about what could have been done is arbitrary at best. The fact that he was in such a situation already shows that she had the better of him.

He had already tried doppelgangers, animated statues and blasts. Shoulda woulda coulda, isn't it? And he DID try to BFR her, but it obviously failed. There is nothing which leads me to conclude that he could have BFRed the mace when hawkgirl was wielding it.

The point is simply that if Fate were on a level high enough to trouble G in any way, his magics would not have been so easily disrupted. I already know that the weapon was designed to disrupt magic, but I'm pretty sure we can both safely assume that it would not have been the first time he was exposed to such weapons/artifacts. The point still stands that from what we have seen of Fate, he isn't going to trouble G much.

Originally posted by Ouallada
And she could have simply clubbed him in the face without lifting it so high into the air. Arguing about what could have been done is arbitrary at best. The fact that he was in such a situation already shows that she had the better of him.

She still would've had to telegraph the move. Her swing isn't instant. And the fact remains that he stopped his own attack.

Originally posted by Ouallada
He had already tried doppelgangers, animated statues and blasts. Shoulda woulda coulda, isn't it? And he DID try to BFR her, but it obviously failed. There is nothing which leads me to conclude that he could have BFRed the mace when hawkgirl was wielding it.

There's no difference between whether or not she has it in her hand. The mace itself is what disrupts magic.

In 'Wake the Dead,' he stated that the mace was disrupting the flow of magic in his tower, so he sent it into a pocket dimension. And he did so with a gesture. There's no reason as to why he couldn't have done it in 'Terror Beyond.'

The only reason he didn't is because that would not have made it an interesting fight.

Originally posted by Ouallada
The point is simply that if Fate were on a level high enough to trouble G in any way, his magics would not have been so easily disrupted.

This statement makes absolutely no sense. Galactus doesn't have a magical disrupting plot device with him.

When Solomon Grundy was resurrected with black magic, nobody was able to take him down.

The reason Grundy was defeated was because of Shayera's nth metal mace. So I really don't think it's fair to base 'power levels' off of a plot device.

It's like Drax and Thanos. Thanos is MUCH more powerful than Drax, but Drax is like Thanos' kryptonite which was the reason why he was able to kill him.

Originally posted by Ouallada
I already know that the weapon was designed to disrupt magic, but I'm pretty sure we can both safely assume that it would not have been the first time he was exposed to such weapons/artifacts. The point still stands that from what we have seen of Fate, he isn't going to trouble G much.

I'm not so sure. In the Superman Animated Series, Dr. Fate defeated a Lord of Chaos named Karkull who was destroying magical dimensions.

Karkull impressed me more than what I saw of Galactus in the FF cartoon series. 🙂

Bottom line, I don't think it's fair to base Dr. Fate's threat level to Galactus on HG's mace.

Originally posted by batdude123
She still would've had to telegraph the move. Her swing isn't instant. And the fact remains that he stopped his own attack.

She would have needed a backswing. Fate would have needed to draw energy to blast with as well. As I said, shoulda woulda could. Does not prove anything. The only thing proven was that she was about to cave his skull in. For all we know, he could have been low on energy. I wouldn't know, and thus I choose not to debate such ambiguities.

Originally posted by batdude123
There's no difference between whether or not she has it in her hand. The mace itself is what disrupts magic.

In 'Wake the Dead,' he stated that the mace was disrupting the flow of magic in his tower, so he sent it into a pocket dimension. And he did so with a gesture. There's no reason as to why he couldn't have done it in 'Terror Beyond.'

The only reason he didn't is because that would not have made it an interesting fight.

Once again, combat feat > static feat. You can argue otherwise, but I don't think it would hold water. I say that the simpler and hence more believable solution, as per occam's razor, simply has it that he was not able to duplicate such a feat under stress.

Originally posted by batdude123
This statement makes absolutely no sense. Galactus doesn't have a magical disrupting plot device with him.

Sentry's power level was partially judged based on what he did to AM. The same thing applies here, but we simply switch Fate for Sentry and hawkgirl for AM. If we are to debate how much of a threat Fate would be to G, then a level for Fate's magics has to be established. That was a low showing for him.

Originally posted by batdude123
When Solomon Grundy was resurrected with black magic, nobody was able to take him down.

The reason Grundy was defeated was because of Shayera's nth metal mace. So I really don't think it's fair to base 'power levels' off of a plot device.

Shayera's mace affected the magics animating him, while the others were attacking him as a physical entity. In short, she basically went to the root of the problem while the others tried to solve it superficially. I understand the point made though.

Originally posted by batdude123
It's like Drax and Thanos. Thanos is MUCH more powerful than Drax, but Drax is like Thanos' kryptonite which was the reason why he was able to kill him.

That is correct, and I can see the parallels. However, it can be seen that if Thanos was battling back. he would have probably battered Drax. Therein lies the difference. Fate WAS battling back.

Originally posted by batdude123
I'm not so sure. In the Superman Animated Series, Dr. Fate defeated a Lord of Chaos named Karkull who was destroying magical dimensions.

Karkull impressed me more than what I saw of Galactus in the FF cartoon series. 🙂

Bottom line, I don't think it's fair to base Dr. Fate's threat level to Galactus on HG's mace.

Well, this is just JLU right?

It isn't fair to base his power level on one showing, but as Fate was never a major recurring character, it makes sense to scrutinise the appearances he had more carefully. My point is simply that his other apperances, when weighed down by this low showing, do not make him a sufficient threat to G. I hope you can see where I am coming from, because with a handful of feats by Fate, it isn;t enough to base his threat levels on what we know of him, but to weigh his individual showings and to use the average. The same thing applies to Zatanna and Circe in the JLUs series. The latter was more impressive, even though Zatanna is the more powerful.

Originally posted by Ouallada
She would have needed a backswing. Fate would have needed to draw energy to blast with as well. As I said, shoulda woulda could. Does not prove anything. The only thing proven was that she was about to cave his skull in. For all we know, he could have been low on energy. I wouldn't know, and thus I choose not to debate such ambiguities.

You're a funny guy. Dr. Fate doesn't and he didn't run out of energy.

And there was easily enough time for him to blast her when she was taking a back swing.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Once again, combat feat > static feat. You can argue otherwise, but I don't think it would hold water. I say that the simpler and hence more believable solution, as per occam's razor, simply has it that he was not able to duplicate such a feat under stress.

The reason he didn't send away her mace, use telepathy, etc. is because if he defeated her, the monster they were trying to prevent from entering their dimension would not have been able to get there. Thus, making the second episode of Terror Beyond not possible.

I'd say it holds more water than your logic on why Dr. Fate couldn't do anything to cartoon Galactus.

Her getting the better of him, however, is in NO WAY an indication of Dr. Fate's power level. Thus, using this as a point of reference as to why he wouldn't be a threat to Galactus is, in actuality, stupid. 😬

Originally posted by Ouallada
Sentry's power level was partially judged based on what he did to AM. The same thing applies here, but we simply switch Fate for Sentry and hawkgirl for AM. If we are to debate how much of a threat Fate would be to G, then a level for Fate's magics has to be established. That was a low showing for him.

This isn't the same thing at all.

AM doesn't wield a plot device that makes Sentry's energies void, and it's kinda hard to overload something (referring to the mace) that doesn't absorb energies.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Shayera's mace affected the magics animating him, while the others were attacking him as a physical entity. In short, she basically went to the root of the problem while the others tried to solve it superficially. I understand the point made though.

That's exactly right. You just proved my point. 🙂

Because of the PLOT DEVICE weapon she carries, she was able to defeat him. That, however, does not make her more powerful than the rest.

Comprende?

Originally posted by Ouallada
That is correct, and I can see the parallels. However, it can be seen that if Thanos was battling back. he would have probably battered Drax. Therein lies the difference. Fate WAS battling back.

Is kryptonite more powerful than Superman? No, it isn't.

However, it can be used to defeat him.

Pretty much the same situation here.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Well, this is just JLU right?

If this is strictly JLU, then your example doesn't work because it was in Justice League. 🙂

Goes both ways here.

Originally posted by Ouallada
It isn't fair to base his power level on one showing, but as Fate was never a major recurring character, it makes sense to scrutinise the appearances he had more carefully. My point is simply that his other apperances, when weighed down by this low showing, do not make him a sufficient threat to G. I hope you can see where I am coming from, because with a handful of feats by Fate, it isn;t enough to base his threat levels on what we know of him, but to weigh his individual showings and to use the average. The same thing applies to Zatanna and Circe in the JLUs series. The latter was more impressive, even though Zatanna is the more powerful.

I really don't see how you're not getting this.

Her plot device mace has nothing to do with his power.

In fact, animated Dr. Fate has battle a few creatures how (as far as what I've seen from cartoon Big G) that are more powerful than animated Galactus. Plus, Dr. Fate has the entire League backing him up here.

The only way your argument could make sense is if you actually believe that Hawkgirl is more powerful than Dr. Fate, which is laughable. That's not even close to being the case.

Originally posted by batdude123
You're a funny guy. Dr. Fate doesn't and he didn't run out of energy.

And there was easily enough time for him to blast her when she was taking a back swing.

Based on absolutely nothing. This is JLU Fate, although you could try proving that he does not run out of energy.

And she could have simply driven the mace into his face. Classic h2h trick even today. Grab collar, change into a choke. A mace has sharp ends, and should still be able to do damage. You still want to argue on the issue of imagination?

Originally posted by batdude123
The reason he didn't send away her mace, use telepathy, etc. is because if he defeated her, the monster they were trying to prevent from entering their dimension would not have been able to get there. Thus, making the second episode of Terror Beyond not possible.

I'd say it holds more water than your logic on why Dr. Fate couldn't do anything to cartoon Galactus.

Hmmm, so the next time I argue for G at normal levels, any showing in which he does not one shot a being he should is because there needs to be another issue.

In any case, the above quoted paragraph makes no sense at all. Do I need to explain why, or can you see the self-contradiction?

Oh, and as I have said, he already tried and FAILED to bfr hawkgirl the same way he bfred the other combatants during that very fight, which makes me wonder why you are contradicting yourself. Meaning failing to bfr during a combat situation > bfring her mace in a non-combat situation.

Originally posted by batdude123
Her getting the better of him, however, is in NO WAY an indication of Dr. Fate's power level. Thus, using this as a point of reference as to why he wouldn't be a threat to Galactus is, in actuality, stupid. 😬

I am using this as a point of reference to indicate Fate's own level, and thus drawing a comparison to that of G's. Let me know when we should start ignoring losses based on arbitration.

Originally posted by batdude123
This isn't the same thing at all.

AM doesn't wield a plot device that makes Sentry's energies void, and it's kinda hard to overload something (referring to the mace) that doesn't absorb energies.

AM IS a plot device based on how much absorbing ability he has. The parallel is equal to your usage of Thanos and Drax. Unless you are trying to tell me that any wielder of that mace could get the better of Fate.

Originally posted by batdude123
That's exactly right. You just proved my point. 🙂

Because of the PLOT DEVICE weapon she carries, she was able to defeat him. That, however, does not make her more powerful than the rest.

Comprende?

Eh, quote me on where I said hawkgirl was more powerful than Fate. Saying that it was a low showing for him, mitigating part of his better showings, already stipulates that Fate is more powerful than hawkgirl.

Capito?

Originally posted by batdude123
Is kryptonite more powerful than Superman? No, it isn't.

However, it can be used to defeat him.

Pretty much the same situation here.

Once again, quote me on where I said she was more powerful. Otherwise, do take those words out of my mouth.

Superman has been shown to overcome K-nite. I would expect the same from Fate if he were to be a threat to G.

Originally posted by batdude123
If this is strictly JLU, then your example doesn't work because it was in Justice League. 🙂

Goes both ways here.

It's ok with me. Taking that low showing also takes away everything he did against icthulhu.

Of course, except that JLU is a subset of JL, while Superman's TAS has as much to do with it as a Koream prostitute has to with with Ghandi.

Originally posted by batdude123
I really don't see how you're not getting this.

Her plot device mace has nothing to do with his power.

In fact, animated Dr. Fate has battle a few creatures how (as far as what I've seen from cartoon Big G) that are more powerful than animated Galactus. Plus, Dr. Fate has the entire League backing him up here.

The only way your argument could make sense is if you actually believe that Hawkgirl is more powerful than Dr. Fate, which is laughable. That's not even close to being the case.

All the examples given by yourself thus far with regards to a weakness has said weakness overcome or logically overcome. Superman > K-nite. Thanos fighting back > Drax. Fate did not do enough to win, regardless of whether it partially negated his powerset.

As said, JLU fate. Take away that low showing if you wish, because that takes away a lot of the league's showings too. That is equivalent to using alternate reality feats. At least JL and JLU are within the same timeline/reality.

My argument is simply that Fate would have done better against hawkgirl if he was at a high enough level to threaten G. Your argument is that he BFRed her mace and that he could have done better against hawkgirl, while he did a few pretty things on Superman's TAS. That shows a threat to G in what way?

Not counting Amazo, who easily solo him, JLU would stop him.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Not counting Amazo, who easily solo him, JLU would stop him.

Amazo would easily pose the largest threat to G, because we never saw real matter manipulation from any herald or G himself, and he did plough through the whole league to get to Luthor. He isn't a member of the JLU per se though. The league itself, I'm not sure. They were given plenty of problems by low level beings, but they did defeat a couple of high end threats. That said, we apparently cannot use feats from seasons 1-2, so that takes out John's Despero feat, the league defeating the manhunters, defeating DS, metamorpho etc.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Based on absolutely nothing. This is JLU Fate, although you could try proving that he does not run out of energy.

Based on the fact that a few seconds later he was using an energy blast on a demon.

Kinda defeats your point of him running out of power, huh?

Originally posted by Ouallada
And she could have simply driven the mace into his face. Classic h2h trick even today. Grab collar, change into a choke. A mace has sharp ends, and should still be able to do damage. You still want to argue on the issue of imagination?

I doubt she could’ve just driven it in his face, given the fact that he has a near invulnerable helmet on his head. 🙂

Besides, you and I both know Fate had plenty of opportunities to take Shayera out. The reason he didn’t capitalize is because he wasn’t really interested in fighting her.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Hmmm, so the next time I argue for G at normal levels, any showing in which he does not one shot a being he should is because there needs to be another issue.

Not at all, but you couldn’t logically justify a reason as to why Galactus didn’t/couldn’t one-shot someone like Iron Man at normal levels. 🙂

Same situation here with the only difference being Hawkgirl wields a device that makes magic null.

There’s her mace, plus the fact that he was merely trying to stall her in order to finish his incantation. He wasn’t going for the kill or anything like that. All of his “attacks” were meant to ward her off to buy him time. If he were really trying to KO/kill/defeat her, he could have whipped up a bunch of those doppelgangers and then continued to fire blasts at her from a distance.

His pseudo-fight with Hawkgirl doesn’t take away from his power level at all. I can’t see how you don’t understand this concept.

Originally posted by Ouallada
In any case, the above quoted paragraph makes no sense at all. Do I need to explain why, or can you see the self-contradiction?

Oh, and as I have said, he already tried and FAILED to bfr hawkgirl the same way he bfred the other combatants during that very fight, which makes me wonder why you are contradicting yourself. Meaning failing to bfr during a combat situation > bfring her mace in a non-combat situation.

I didn’t contradict myself at all. The reason I brought up the whole pocket dimension ploy in the first place was because you seemed to think that the scenario in question is the be-all-end-all of how a fight between Dr. Fate and Hawkgirl would intrinsically go.

A couple problems with that are:

1. Fate was trying to ward her off and stall the situation.
2. If Fate would have won that encounter, his spell would have prevented the monster from entering in their dimension, thus voiding the second part of that episode.

The politics of that specific episode dictated that they show the mace of Hawkgirl’s disruption of magic, and to have her win. In essence: plot device to further the story along.

Also, it's apparent that he used two different portals in Terror Beyond and Dead Awakening. In Terror Beyond, he wasn't trying to send her or her mace away to a pocket dimension, but rather, to a different point on Earth. A parallelism can hardly be drawn if the same technique wasn't used in both scenarios. And since the pocket dimension BFR was successful, that tells me he can do it to her.

Originally posted by Ouallada
I am using this as a point of reference to indicate Fate's own level, and thus drawing a comparison to that of G's. Let me know when we should start ignoring losses based on arbitration.

And it's a shitty way to determine power levels.

The ignorance being exuberated by you is truly blinding.

Originally posted by Ouallada
AM IS a plot device based on how much absorbing ability he has. The parallel is equal to your usage of Thanos and Drax. Unless you are trying to tell me that any wielder of that mace could get the better of Fate.

Lulz. You're still not getting it.

This has shit all to do with his power level.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Eh, quote me on where I said hawkgirl was more powerful than Fate.

I never said you said that. However, I did say that the only way your argument could possibly make sense is if you think that Hawkgirl is more powerful than Dr. Fate. Let me elaborate:

You stated that because Dr. Fate didn't overcome Hawkgirl's mace, this is grounds for him not being a threat to Galactus.

First of all, you've already admitted to saying that Dr. Fate is more powerful than Hawkgirl.

In this case, using the Hawkgirl scenario to try and justify the claims of him not being on Galactus' level is folly.

Overcoming or not overcoming a specified "weakness" (per say) means nothing in terms of power level if the opposing adversary does not wield that certain weakness. 😐

End of discussion.

Therefore, trying to draw a similarity between Fate's showing against Hawkgirl and how he'd stack up against Galactus is asinine at best.

Just out of curiosity, what exactly has cartoon Galactus even done to warrant him as being above the entire JLU including Fate? You'd be hard pressed to answer that question logically.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Superman has been shown to overcome K-nite. I would expect the same from Fate if he were to be a threat to G.

This is so counter intuitive, it's hilarious.

First of all, you don't know the extent of the mace's magical disruption level well enough to make a logical examination as to how much power it requires to overcome it. Throughout the series, it's been shown to deflect some extraordinarily powerful magic. That includes the Cthulhu-like creature they were fighting in the Terror Beyond. She deflected its blast. Plus Fate's magic and the black magic that was used to reanimate Solomon Grundy in Dead Awakening.

To my knowledge, no magic has overcome it.

That's why I find it hilarious that you're using Hawkgirl's mace as some sort of pseudo-evidence for him not being on Big G's level.

Originally posted by Ouallada
It's ok with me. Taking that low showing also takes away everything he did against icthulhu.

Lulz.

This was merely pointing out that if you want to take away Superman: TAS series feats from Fate, then you'd also have to take away JL feats as well and focus ONLY on JLU.

They're all part of the same time line.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Of course, except that JLU is a subset of JL, while Superman's TAS has as much to do with it as a Koream prostitute has to with with Ghandi.

You just proved to me that you know next to nothing about the DCAU. Everything in Superman: TAS is canon to JL and JLU. It simply happened prior to it.

Originally posted by Ouallada
All the examples given by yourself thus far with regards to a weakness has said weakness overcome or logically overcome. Superman > K-nite. Thanos fighting back > Drax. Fate did not do enough to win, regardless of whether it partially negated his powerset.

As I said before, it could easily be extrapolated that Fate was simply trying to ward her off based on the context of the scenario they were all in.

Originally posted by Ouallada
As said, JLU fate. Take away that low showing if you wish, because that takes away a lot of the league's showings too. That is equivalent to using alternate reality feats. At least JL and JLU are within the same timeline/reality.

No, it isn’t. I’ve seen every single episode of Superman: TAS, JL, and JLU. Darkseid’s brainwash of Superman in the Superman cartoon was mentioned in JL, which was then compounded upon in JLU.

Superman: TAS is canon to the timeline of JL and JLU. It isn’t an alternate reality. I have no idea where you extrapolated that concept from.

Originally posted by Ouallada
My argument is simply that Fate would have done better against hawkgirl if he was at a high enough level to threaten G. Your argument is that he BFRed her mace and that he could have done better against hawkgirl, while he did a few pretty things on Superman's TAS. That shows a threat to G in what way?

In this case, your argument means next to nothing. Dr. Fate has already proven himself to be a worthy competitor for cartoon Galactus. He’s faced a few beings that have impressed me much more than Big G. He even defeated some.

Bottom line: Your logic fails. 🙂 Have a nice Thanksgiving.

Originally posted by batdude123
Based on the fact that a few seconds later he was using an energy blast on a demon.

Kinda defeats your point of him running out of power, huh?

Nope, but it is a distinct possibility, but one which I have already claimed to be ambiguous at best, yet not anymore illogical than you insisting he jobbed.

Originally posted by batdude123

I doubt she could’ve just driven it in his face, given the fact that he has a near invulnerable helmet on his head. 🙂

Besides, you and I both know Fate had plenty of opportunities to take Shayera out. The reason he didn’t capitalize is because he wasn’t really interested in fighting her.

It doesn't matter. He isn't invulnerable on every spot of his body. We are arguing on imagination here. Facts speak louder. She won. He was beaten.

Apparently we both know that he had plenty of opportunities to win. He threw blasts, flew around, animated statues, tried to BFR her and so on. However, I seem to be the only one to realise that all those tactics failed.

I'll give you the fact that his priorities lay elsewhere, and I never said otherwise. You will discover that he devoted his full attention to her once the fight began though.

Originally posted by batdude123

Not at all, but you couldn’t logically justify a reason as to why Galactus didn’t/couldn’t one-shot someone like Iron Man at normal levels. 🙂

Same situation here with the only difference being Hawkgirl wields a device that makes magic null.

There’s her mace, plus the fact that he was merely trying to stall her in order to finish his incantation. He wasn’t going for the kill or anything like that. All of his “attacks” were meant to ward her off to buy him time. If he were really trying to KO/kill/defeat her, he could have whipped up a bunch of those doppelgangers and then continued to fire blasts at her from a distance.

His pseudo-fight with Hawkgirl doesn’t take away from his power level at all. I can’t see how you don’t understand this concept.

As I have mentioned, using Fate as we KNOW him is a lot different from JLU Fate. The JLU Fate had no feats that place him anywhere near a level in which he would be expected to brush off one of the JL7 with consumate ease. Animated G has shown enough to tell me that he would one-shot any animated street-leveller. What has Fate done?

As I recall, he was pretty confident of himself, a notion which he quickly retracted. Once again, shoulda woulda coulda. Why are we still arguing on the realms of imagination when he already tried at least four different ways to end the fight?

Lastly, G not one-shotting an Iron Man level being is obviously stupid. However, I'm betting it holds a lot more credence as a low showing/reason why G was not at his normal power levels than using the necessity for a following episode as an excuse. That's poor reasoning.

Originally posted by batdude123

I didn’t contradict myself at all. The reason I brought up the whole pocket dimension ploy in the first place was because you seemed to think that the scenario in question is the be-all-end-all of how a fight between Dr. Fate and Hawkgirl would intrinsically go.

A couple problems with that are:

1. Fate was trying to ward her off and stall the situation.
2. If Fate would have won that encounter, his spell would have prevented the monster from entering in their dimension, thus voiding the second part of that episode.

The politics of that specific episode dictated that they show the mace of Hawkgirl’s disruption of magic, and to have her win. In essence: plot device to further the story along.

Firstly, it isn't. You must be reading my posts wrongly to conclude this way. My saying that it was a low showing for Fate already alludes to the fact that I expect him to do a lot better. Him failing to do better cannot be ignored by expectations of how he should have done, though.

My answers to your problems:
1) Fate gave her his full attention, and was pretty cocky about it too. I did not see any indication that he was trying to finish the incantation once the fight had begun, save an ambiguous part near the conclusion of the fight.
2) There are a thousand and one ways in which the story could have progressed, ie with the desired ends. He could have won, and been sufficiently distracted so that his spell fizzled. Saying that it was the only way the plot would have progressed is simply untrue, and should not be used as an excuse for a low showing.

I believe in looking at what was done, and not simply "politics" or plot devices. I could make pretty good cases for Despero, braniac, DS etc to have won, ignoring any contrary evidence by claiming that due to "politics", they needed to lose to further the story. This is a debate. Let's stick to feats and not tangential extrapolation.

Originally posted by batdude123

Also, it's apparent that he used two different portals in Terror Beyond and Dead Awakening. In Terror Beyond, he wasn't trying to send her or her mace away to a pocket dimension, but rather, to a different point on Earth. A parallelism can hardly be drawn if the same technique wasn't used in both scenarios. And since the pocket dimension BFR was successful, that tells me he can do it to her.

I cannot remember him BFRing the mace. I remember him retrieving it. The circumstances could very well have been different when he removed the mace. For example, that pocket dimension could only have been for inanimate objects. I'm not claiming that, but I'm saying that there are far too many unknown variables for you to make your conclusion, while we KNOW what that spell he tried did, and that it failed. Unless you are calling Fate a moron, there must have been reasons why he preffered the latter in a combat situation.

Originally posted by batdude123

And it's a shitty way to determine power levels.

The ignorance being exuberated by you is truly blinding.

Balancing feats cannot be worse than the arbitration you are passing off as logic.

We look at feats. As of now, we can see where G lies, because of what the surfer has done. Once again, let me know when we can start ignoring feats based on whim. Quanchi would love to PM you about this.

Originally posted by batdude123

Lulz. You're still not getting it.

This has shit all to do with his power level.

Ah, time for the insults. Enlightening. I understand the rah-rah about the mace disrupting magic. Hawkgirl herself still can be knocked out, right?

Originally posted by batdude123

I never said you said that. However, I did say that the only way your argument could possibly make sense is if you think that Hawkgirl is more powerful than Dr. Fate. Let me elaborate:

You stated that because Dr. Fate didn't overcome Hawkgirl's mace, this is grounds for him not being a threat to Galactus.

First of all, you've already admitted to saying that Dr. Fate is more powerful than Hawkgirl.

In this case, using the Hawkgirl scenario to try and justify the claims of him not being on Galactus' level is folly.

Overcoming or not overcoming a specified "weakness" (per say) means nothing in terms of power level if the opposing adversary does not wield that certain weakness. 😐

End of discussion.

Therefore, trying to draw a similarity between Fate's showing against Hawkgirl and how he'd stack up against Galactus is asinine at best.

Thank you for retracting those statements.

My reasoning was more along the lines of him still being able to overcome hawkgirl inspite of her mace, which he failed to do. Even so, unless you are claiming that the mace has unlimited disrupting power, it is only logical that a high enough magical level would disrupt it, much like AM has a certain ability to absorb attacks, but only to a certain level. Replace AM with mace and "absorb" with disrupt, and you'll get the idea. Before we go any further, are you implying that any Thanagarian wielding a mace would have beaten Fate?

As for admitting that Fate is more powerful than Shayera, I have no problems with that, hence the low showing. Ergo, I believe he could have done better. By saying that he could not have worked effective magic against the mace, you are saying that he could NOT have done better, which brings me back to my above question.

As I said, I already know what Fate has done in the JLU cartoons. I am just balancing the other feats with his low showings.

Originally posted by batdude123

Just out of curiosity, what exactly has cartoon Galactus even done to warrant him as being above the entire JLU including Fate? You'd be hard pressed to answer that question logically.

G was stated to have imparted a small fraction of his power to surfer in the origins episode. Are we doubting that the surfer's feats would not be accessible to G? Add that to G hurling Zenn-la so far away that it could not be found.

Additionally, I have never once said that JLU heroes would not stop G. I am simply arguing that Fate would not have a profound effect, as earlier claimed by Nvr.

Originally posted by batdude123

This is so counter intuitive, it's hilarious.

First of all, you don't know the extent of the mace's magical disruption level well enough to make a logical examination as to how much power it requires to overcome it. Throughout the series, it's been shown to deflect some extraordinarily powerful magic. That includes the Cthulhu-like creature they were fighting in the Terror Beyond. She deflected its blast. Plus Fate's magic and the black magic that was used to reanimate Solomon Grundy in Dead Awakening.

To my knowledge, no magic has overcome it.

That's why I find it hilarious that you're using Hawkgirl's mace as some sort of pseudo-evidence for him not being on Big G's level.

Your answer to my question of whether or not any wielder of a Thanagarian mace will then shed light on how we should answer this question. Do you agree that Hawkgirl was a low showing for Fate?

I'm not claiming that the mace itself should be overcome. I am saying Fate should have won the fight DESPITE hawkgirl having the mace if he had magical ability on a high enough level to trouble G. We've seen Superman win through K-nite before. Fate beating Hawkgirl via a radial or encompassing attack is not out of the question.

There is a difference between what I am saying and what you think I am saying. It isn't so much pseudo-evidence as logical balancing.

Originally posted by batdude123

Lulz.

This was merely pointing out that if you want to take away Superman: TAS series feats from Fate, then you'd also have to take away JL feats as well and focus ONLY on JLU.

They're all part of the same time line.

I didn't do that. The OP did that for us. Go rant at him.

I'm fine with taking away JL feats, although I would prefer to include them for completeness. Half of the JL's feats are from there anyway.

Originally posted by batdude123

You just proved to me that you know next to nothing about the DCAU. Everything in Superman: TAS is canon to JL and JLU. It simply happened prior to it.

Tell that to the OP. Read the thread title. In fact, I think I've improved the JL's chances by giving them JL feats. Pick your poison then. Doesn;t matter to me.

Originally posted by batdude123

As I said before, it could easily be extrapolated that Fate was simply trying to ward her off based on the context of the scenario they were all in.

And I have shown how silly it is. Shall we debate on whether DS should have beaten Superman? I will simply say that he needed to lose to further the plot.

Originally posted by batdude123

No, it isn’t. I’ve seen every single episode of Superman: TAS, JL, and JLU. Darkseid’s brainwash of Superman in the Superman cartoon was mentioned in JL, which was then compounded upon in JLU.

Superman: TAS is canon to the timeline of JL and JLU. It isn’t an alternate reality. I have no idea where you extrapolated that concept from.

I meant that JL/JLU are parts of a same whole. I reckon you are right on the entire DCAU being an entire whole, but it still doesn't matter in this debate. I don't understand why Superman:TAS needs to be mentioned in a JLU thread. If we were to debate B&T Thor, do we give him full access to his decades of feats? No, because we are treating B&T Thor as a standalone. Looking for the required feats from other parts of the DCAU I presume?

Originally posted by batdude123

In this case, your argument means next to nothing. Dr. Fate has already proven himself to be a worthy competitor for cartoon Galactus. He’s faced a few beings that have impressed me much more than Big G. He even defeated some.

Bottom line: Your logic fails. 🙂 Have a nice Thanksgiving.

None of which are relevant to THIS thread. Tell you what. Impress me with Fate's other JLU feats. Ignore JL if you wish, but the league loses its JL showings too. The fact that you are reaching for the inclusion of other animated series amuses me, and tells me a lot about your stand.

No problem. Have a nice Thanksgiving. 🙂

Double.

Let me just use this double to say this. Bat, please do not take my splattered use of sarcasm etc as a slight. I've enjoyed the debate thus far, and it's always good to debate with someone who knows his stuff and who is pretty logical. 👆

Spoiler:
I'm still going to win 🙂