Rivan was a Zelosian, Ragnos's rule details revealed, Exar Kun did NOT invent the DBL

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I doubt this, though can't deny the possibility of this either.

Some other candidates including Darth Caedus, Darth Bane, Darth Revan, Darth Nihilus and Exar Kun are close contestants for that spot too.

Kreia said this in regard to Naga Sadow:Ahead lies the tomb of Naga Sadow,successor to Marka Ragnos and the sith lord repsonsible for nearly conquering the Republic in the Great Hyperspace war a millenia ago Then she talks about Revan entering the tomb with Uthar that is it.

Kreia said this about Tulak Hord:This is the tomb of Tulak Hord,known as the greatest lightsaber duelist of the sith lords. His skill was considred remarkable even in his time,when many true lightsaber masters lived.

Then the player can ask her are modern jedi poorly skilled with the lightsaber.

Kreia responds with:If you were to face an ancient sith lord in combat,you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old masters

Then the player asks what made him so good.

Kreia says:that is unknown but it was said he taught his technique in his holocron which has been lost when the new sith order arrived there.

I do not think she was lying when she said tulak was the best of the ancients and his hilocron was sought after in kotor one and was highly valuable so seems to be stating the truth. But saying the ancients were as good as she said they were with lightsabers seems far fetched to me. Yet she did not state that Naga Sadow was the greatest.

Originally posted by GahLakTus
Id agree with your list, except for the fact that all of them on your list are superior to bane in force mastery as off now and so is vader for that matter. Between bane and vader for the moment i would say vader and i will give the final verdict when the new bane novel comes out.

I think we can definitely end that debate. There are many things aside from one's mastery of the Force which must be considered. Only Bane (albeit via the knowledge he gained from Revan) was intelligent enough to realize that only through secrecy and subtle manipulation would the "revenge of the Sith" be fulfilled. All the others on that list (aside, perhaps, from Revan) were brash fools who didn't weigh the pros and cons of their actions.

Originally posted by Melcórë
I think we can definitely end that debate. There are many things aside from one's mastery of the Force which must be considered. Only Bane (albeit via the knowledge he gained from Revan) was intelligent enough to realize that only through secrecy and subtle manipulation would the "revenge of the Sith" be fulfilled. All the others on that list (aside, perhaps, from Revan) were brash fools who didn't weigh the pros and cons of their actions.

I wouldn't say that they were all brash fools. One of the reasons that Bane could have realized the sith needed to change was by looking at the past. Take Exar Kun for example I would not consider him brash being that he told Ulic not to invade coruscant but he did anyway. Then after rescuing his apprentice he was betrayed and lost the war. Revan was close to conquering the republic before he was betrayed. Then Bane could look at sith lords from the new sith empire who have been betrayed such as Ruin and Rivan. They all had been betrayed by ther apprentices and had some type military or sith acolyte followers. He realized that conventional warfare(sith vs republic and jedi) would not work and has not worked for any sith so far. Krayt had the imperials and Caedus has the alliance military.

And on another note I liked how on page 13 there is a picture of Ajunta Pall alive on Zoist.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
I wouldn't say that they were all brash fools. One of the reasons that Bane could have realized the sith needed to change was by looking at the past. Take Exar Kun for example I would not consider him brash being that he told Ulic not to invade coruscant but he did anyway. Then after rescuing his apprentice he was betrayed and lost the war. Revan was close to conquering the republic before he was betrayed. Then Bane could look at sith lords from the new sith empire who have been betrayed such as Ruin and Rivan. They all had been betrayed by ther apprentices and had some type military or sith acolyte followers. He realized that conventional warfare(sith vs republic and jedi) would not work and has not worked for any sith so far. Krayt had the imperials and Caedus has the alliance military.

And on another note I liked how on page 13 there is a picture of Ajunta Pall alive on Zoist.

After-all! Revan during his reign as the Dark Lord of the Sith managed to form a vast Sith Empire and would eventually defeat and conquer the Republic but his vision was left in the dark due to an unfortunate betrayal. But this goal was later on completed by Darth Sidious.

So Melcore do have a point.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It was none other but Revan who managed to convince Darth Bane to rebel against Brotherhood of Darkness and implement reforms that would allow Sith to rise once again after so many years.

After-all! Revan during his reign as the Dark Lord of the Sith managed to form a vast Sith Empire and would eventually defeat and conquer the Republic but his vision was left in the dark due to an unfortunate betrayal. But this goal was later on completed by Darth Sidious.

So Melcore do have a point.

I do agree he has point but I do not think they were all "brash fools" Of the ones he mentioned I would that Kun and Revan are not.(the original list of sith mentioned he was talking about was Revan,Kun,Bane,Caedus, and Nihiulus.) All I said was that he was talking about them as fools for trying to wage a conventional military war against the republic and jedi.(that's how I interpreted it) Revan and Kun could have succeeded if was not for the betrayals of their apprentices. I do not see either of them as brash for a conventional war considering at that point there was not many cases sith betraying their masters.It really took off during the kotor period of the betrayal for the tiltle of dark lord of the sith. I also said Bane could look at the sith during the new sith wars such as Rivan and Ruin who were betrayed to realize the current system didn't work aswell as what Revan taught him. Im not sure if I understand your point legend cause I do ultimately agree with Melcore with the exceptions of Kun and Revan and maybe Caedus.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
I wouldn't say that they were all brash fools. One of the reasons that Bane could have realized the sith needed to change was by looking at the past. Take Exar Kun for example I would not consider him brash being that he told Ulic not to invade coruscant but he did anyway. Then after rescuing his apprentice he was betrayed and lost the war. Revan was close to conquering the republic before he was betrayed. Then Bane could look at sith lords from the new sith empire who have been betrayed such as Ruin and Rivan. They all had been betrayed by ther apprentices and had some type military or sith acolyte followers. He realized that conventional warfare(sith vs republic and jedi) would not work and has not worked for any sith so far. Krayt had the imperials and Caedus has the alliance military.

And on another note I liked how on page 13 there is a picture of Ajunta Pall alive on Zoist.

I've never been very sympathetic of Exar's character. From my point-of-view, I can't help but feel that he had many chances to either separate himself from the dark path or to make his reign as Dark Lord of the Sith more successful.

Certainly, what Bane learnt was in reality common sense. But he still needed it to be fully-explained to him; the glimpses he gained of the truth at the Academy would have come to naught if he had not found Revan's holocron and the knowledge with which he could destroy his Sith peers.

BTW: I really dislike "Caedus" and "Krayt." 😛

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It was none other but Revan who managed to convince Darth Bane to rebel against Brotherhood of Darkness and implement reforms that would allow Sith to rise once again after so many years.

After-all! Revan during his reign as the Dark Lord of the Sith managed to form a vast Sith Empire and would eventually defeat and conquer the Republic but his vision was left in the dark due to an unfortunate betrayal. But this goal was later on completed by Darth Sidious.

So Melcore do have a point.

Well, one could always say that Revan's intent was never the same as the other Sith Lords. KotOR II would seem to suggest that he was primarily concerned with preserving the galaxy from some sort of external threat - something I can only take to mean the Yuuzhan Vong, although Kreia would have us believe he meant she and her compatriots. This was later a secondary-motive behind the Sith plotting, (although it may be an inferrence that only Palpatine had knowledge of the extragalactic threat).

Originally posted by Darth Hord
I do agree he has point but I do not think they were all "brash fools" Of the ones he mentioned I would that Kun and Revan are not.(the original list of sith mentioned he was talking about was Revan,Kun,Bane,Caedus, and Nihiulus.) All I said was that he was talking about them as fools for trying to wage a conventional military war against the republic and jedi.(that's how I interpreted it) Revan and Kun could have succeeded if was not for the betrayals of their apprentices. I do not see either of them as brash for a conventional war considering at that point there was not many cases sith betraying their masters.It really took off during the kotor period of the betrayal for the tiltle of dark lord of the sith. I also said Bane could look at the sith during the new sith wars such as Rivan and Ruin who were betrayed to realize the current system didn't work aswell as what Revan taught him. Im not sure if I understand your point legend cause I do ultimately agree with Melcore with the exceptions of Kun and Revan and maybe Caedus.

I didn't necessarily mean it like that. Rather simply, I called them brash fools because they seemed to rush headlong into situations where they'd have been better suited to use manipulation or subtlety. In fact, neither Kun, Caedus nor Nihilus would seem to understand such concepts.

I understand where you were coming from though I do think Kun was very manipulative as he was able to get his fellow padawns to believe him and to get them to the Yavin only to fully corrupt them. Then only to send them back to slay their masters that was manipulative and certainly an unconventional way to eliminate jedi masters but i agree that Nihilus is definitely not a manipulative or subtle. Caedus how was able to fool the jedi and his own family of his true feelings and motives for a long time then after Mara's funeral I would say his tactics changed.

Originally posted by Melcórë
Well, one could always say that Revan's intent was never the same as the other Sith Lords. KotOR II would seem to suggest that he was primarily concerned with preserving the galaxy from some sort of external threat - something I can only take to mean the Yuuzhan Vong, although Kreia would have us believe he meant she and her compatriots. This was later a secondary-motive behind the Sith plotting, (although it may be an inferrence that only Palpatine had knowledge of the extragalactic threat).

His intention was to conquer the Republic and than exterminate any kind of external threats. It is that simple.

The "True Sith" concept is something that came out after KOTOR and it was only a "suggestion" from kreia. None the less, the true is that Revan wanted to conquer the Republic as the dark lord of the sith.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
I understand where you were coming from though I do think Kun was very manipulative as he was able to get his fellow padawns to believe him and to get them to the Yavin only to fully corrupt them. Then only to send them back to slay their masters that was manipulative and certainly an unconventional way to eliminate jedi masters but i agree that Nihilus is definitely not a manipulative or subtle. Caedus how was able to fool the jedi and his own family of his true feelings and motives for a long time then after Mara's funeral I would say his tactics changed.

True, I will concede that Kun did manage to subvert Jedi.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And what he would do after destroying the True Sith? Rule the galaxy as the DLOTS.

His intention was to conquer the Republic and than exterminate any kind of external threats. It is that simple.

Originally posted by kamhal
The "True Sith" concept is something that came out after KOTOR and it was only a "suggestion" from kreia. None the less, the true is that Revan wanted to conquer the Republic as the dark lord of the sith.

To clarify, I meant to deny the "True Sith" statement - I've always believed that, if Revan's intentions were as Kreia stated, he meant to protect the galaxy from the Vong. As I said in my earlier post, to go along with this theory, Revan would not be acting out of any evil entent - it would be preventative, in order to maintain stability.

Originally posted by Melcórë
[BTo clarify, I meant to deny the "True Sith" statement - I've always believed that, if Revan's intentions were as Kreia stated, he meant to protect the galaxy from the Vong. As I said in my earlier post, to go along with this theory, Revan would not be acting out of any evil entent - it would be preventative, in order to maintain stability. [/B]

I'm going to have to disagree that Revan was protecting the galaxy from the vong. The first known vong encounter was Canderous encountering a scout ship. Plus I doubt that Revan would be able stop the vong from invading for about 4000 years. Then we have to learn when he actually fell it was either on dantooine as one of the masters first suggested or during the war when he walked on Malachor and had been attacked by the darkside energies..........Wow we are really off topic. in fact I will make a thread so it can be discussed how and when he fell so this thread can get back on track of discussing the new source book which is a very good guide.

That just what I've inferred. What other threat could be great enough to warrant his attention? The "True Sith"? Only Kreia, a known lier and manipulater, made referrence to them.

(That being said, her referrence to Revan's intentions would now have to be called into question as well....)

BTW: Off-Topicness is inevitable.
BTW2: He has to have "fallen" just prior to/near the beginning of the Mandalorian Wars, since he was able to go to Dantooine and search out the Ancient Ruins without being apprehended/scolded by the Council....

Interesting note though. When Lightsnake said Kun didn't invent the lightsaber and instead got it from the exiles, that is incorrect. I've noticed a lot of c-canon/g-canon contradictions in this new guide and this is one of them. The Exiles were stripped of their lightsabers and weapons before fleeing from republic space, and they didn't have the means nor the necessity of creating lightsabers anymore. So when you see a picture of Pall with his saber, it's not actually accurate and Kun may have very well created the double blade.

What other contradictions have you seen?

There was the original dark jedi contradiction, Odan Ur contradictions, Freedon Nadd contradictions, and Palpatine contradictions. Some of these actually contradict G-Canon. I will go back and post them 1 by 1.

I just got done with the entire book and I noticed that the book contradicts ITSELF a LOT. The whole idea of the book was amazing but it's blatantly obvious that the authors completely half assed the writings without researching anything or even rereading their own crap.

Anyways, Ajunta Pall states that they came to sith space without lightsabers and didn't have the means to create them again so they went to sith swords, so the whole thing about Kun having learned from the jedi exiles is pretty much bullshit.

While I'm at it I just noticed that the book stated that Bane studied Revan's holocron on Korriban and then destroyed it. Contradiction #8

Apparently these authors can't count either because they stated that 1400 years after the hyperspace war, Freedon Nadd sought out sith knowledge. Way to go morons, 600=/=1400.

As a fanboy of Dooku, is there anything about him?