Respect The Elder God

Movie 1
YouTube video

Movie 2
YouTube video

Movie 3
YouTube video

Movie 4
YouTube video

Movie 5
YouTube video

Movie 6
YouTube video

Movie 7
YouTube video

respect the Lovecraftian nightmare that has ruled supreme over Nosgoth since the dawn of recorded time

To fully grasp the power the Elder God wields, it is necessary to exactly define what he is and what he does

now because each video has multiple relevant parts to the different sections I gave each movie a number and will reference that number (movie) when quoting and using it as evidence
I find it easier

1. WHAT IS THE ELDER GOD?

A. The Wheel of Fate

Movie 3 basically sums it up in the Elder God’s grandiose terminology.

“The Wheel of Fate must turn. All are redeemed in the cleansing agony of birth, death and rebirth. This is the Engien of Life, the purifying rhythm of the universe, to which all souls are irresistably drawn.”

Raziel, the most enlightened and trustworthy source in the game at this time, does not disagree

Movie 4 shows us at 4:21
Raziel: All the conflict and strife throughout history, all the fear and hatred, served but one purpose: to keep my master’s Wheel turning. All souls were prisoners, trapped in the poitntless round of existence, leading distracted, blunted lives. until death returned them, always in ignorance, to the Wheel.

B. The Parasite God

as explained above, the Wheel of Fate is an endless spiral of consumption by the Elder God.

Raziel spells it out in Movie 1 at 1:10
Raziel: And why as Nosgoth descends into madness and misery, do you appear to thrive?
And at 2:11
Raziel: Oh I see you now as you truly are. A cancer, a spooling parasite burrowed deep in the heart of this world.

C. Free Will
Everyone is Nosgoth is bound to the Wheel and thus they can never have Free Will. The sole exception is...Raziel

Movie 7 has Kain and Moebius saying as much

Kain: Yet Raziel retains his free will. And that’s what frightens you, isn’t it Moebius? You can not see his path and so you can not control it.
Moebius: And neither can you. Yes, Raziel is shrouded from us.

how did Raziel come to have this free will ?

At 1:54 in Movie 1
“I made you. And I will unmake you if I become so inclined.”
Raziel: As your agent, I am beyond death.
At 0:51 in Movie 6
Raziel: you are forced to imprison me because I have free will!
“As you are undying, your soul cannot be returned to the Wheel.”

Raziel is the one being outside of the Elder God’s Wheel because the Elder God made him that way. “Can god make a rock so heavy he can not lift it?” The EG apparently can.

but every other soul, every other destiny on the planet is controlled by the Elder God.

D. Sight of God

Movie 6 exclusively deals with this

Raziel: Moebius had never seen his master until the Soul Reaver purified his sight.
One cannot fight the unseen.

At 6:40, thanks to Raziel healing the taint on him, Kain can see the Elder God.
The Elder God was there all along in the Material Realm since the dawn of time but no one had ever truly seen him until Raziel and then through Raziel, Kain saw.

E. Dual Existence

In Movie 6
“That weapon you bear, however endowed, remains only a Wraith Blade. It can not touch me.”

The Wraith Blade is the spectral remains of the original Soul Reaver and can be brought into the Material Realm to attack physical beings
though the Elder God can inhabit the Spectral Realm (where they are in the video) he is somehow too physical to be touched by the weapon

the only weapon that harms the Elder God is in Movie 4 at 7:48
it is the physical Blood Raver merged with the pure Spirit Reaver to form the Purified Soul Reaver that attacks the physical plane (Material Realm/the body) and the spiritual plane (Spectral Realm/the soul)

In Movie 5 at 1:43
“I am eternally present, here and everywhere. Now and always.”

the Elder God exists in all times and multiple dimensions simultaneously

2. The Powers of the Elder God

A. Souls
as he is the “Hub of the Wheel” he commands all souls in Nosgoth that live and die
he also shows in Movie 3 at 3:02 the ability make souls appear

also as said in Movie 4 by Moebius, the Elder God has “power over life and death” and could resurrect him at will

B. Physical Power

In Movie 2 we witness the Elder God digging himself deep into the Earth

in Movie 4, simply by quaking the ground the Elder God begins to crumble a massive citadel

excellent thread, although Raziel technically does not have free will

how does he not ?
everyone says he does all through Soul Reaver II and Defiance......

because he is trapped into forever repeating the cycle of his excistence over and over again, so technically their all wrong, also not all the characters in LOK know what their saying, for example the powerful Time streamer who is supposed to know most about past, present and future does not even know Kain still is alive at the end of Defiance and even Elder God misses that one out, so they do not neccerily know what their saying, however the developer who said Raziel is trapped in that cycle does you see 😄

http://www.thelostworlds.net/Defiance/Question_and_Answer_with_Jen,_Richard,_and_Kyle.html

because he is trapped into forever repeating the cycle of his excistence over and over again, so technically their all wrong,

while Raziel was always destined to be in the Reaver he CHOSE this time
original timeline having it take him forcefully he joined with the Reaver this time of his own decision and free will
nothing on the planet made him

for example the powerful Time streamer who is supposed to know most about past, present and future does not even know Kain still is alive at the end of Defiance and even Elder God misses that one out, so they do not neccerily know what their saying,

Kain had been sent to the the Hylden's hellish realm which is apparently outside of Nosgoth and outside of the Wheel
Moebius and the Elder God could not have known he survived

Originally posted by Burning thought
excellent thread, although Raziel technically does not have free will

I believe he does. Only when he was under the control of Kain was he bound at will (If even then).

Originally posted by 123KID
while Raziel was always destined to be in the Reaver he CHOSE this time
original timeline having it take him forcefully he joined with the Reaver this time of his own decision and free will
nothing on the planet made him

Kain had been sent to the the Hylden's hellish realm which is apparently outside of Nosgoth and outside of the Wheel
Moebius and the Elder God could not have known he survived

thats the point, the free will thing is supposed to do with not having a preset desitiny, the problem is, he does, and thats the reaver is his destiny which is why i said he does not really have any free will, he chose to, but its a choice that he could not escape in truth, its debatable alone whether he had a choice at all

yes kain was and i know but its unusual neither of them forsore his return, just because he was sent there does not neccerily mean he lost his whole fate thing, neither of them knew Kain had come back, which ofc he does come out of the realm eventually, it seems Kain has some omnicience block

also Fuddle, when was he under kains control?

he was a vampire son but he was not bound, Kain was like their God however and they served him but the "free will" thing is a lot more dynamic than what your saying, it would be difficult i think for someone who has not played the games to understand no offence

Kain is not omniscient 😛

He is a very intellectual character, who almost flawlessly forsaw a chain of events and an outcome, but not omniscient. If he were, he would have learnt how to grown wings before Raziel 🙂

Originally posted by Burning thought
thats the point, the free will thing is supposed to do with not having a preset desitiny, the problem is, he does, and thats the reaver is his destiny which is why i said he does not really have any free will, he chose to, but its a choice that he could not escape in truth, its debatable alone whether he had a choice at all

yes kain was and i know but its unusual neither of them forsore his return, just because he was sent there does not neccerily mean he lost his whole fate thing, neither of them knew Kain had come back, which ofc he does come out of the realm eventually, it seems Kain has some omnicience block

also Fuddle, when was he under kains control?

he was a vampire son but he was not bound, Kain was like their God however and they served him but the "free will" thing is a lot more dynamic than what your saying, it would be difficult i think for someone who has not played the games to understand no offence

When Kain brought him back to life, he served under Kain. He had no idea who he was and Kain manipulated him. If one has no idea who they are, they in my opinion can not be considered free at will.

However, "free will" is a fully philosophic term. No one can say exactly what free will is and what it is not.

Originally posted by Fuddle
Kain is not omniscient 😛

He is a very intellectual character, who almost flawlessly forsaw a chain of events and an outcome, but not omniscient. If he were, he would have learnt how to grown wings before Raziel 🙂

sry when did i say he was omnicient, i said perhaps he can block omnicience, Elder God is supposedly almost omnicience about Nosgoth, Kain however and Raziel were not in his sight so he lost omnicient thanks to them i think

Originally posted by Fuddle
When Kain brought him back to life, he served under Kain. He had no idea who he was and Kain manipulated him. If one has no idea who they are, they in my opinion can not be considered free at will.

However, "free will" is a fully philosophic term. No one can say exactly what free will is and what it is not.

Free will in LOKverse is when you dont have a written fate, everyone in LOKverse has a written fate, Raziel belives and so does kain think that Raziel was released from this, unfortunatley they were wrong

Fair enough 🙂

thats the point, the free will thing is supposed to do with not having a preset desitiny, the problem is, he does, and thats the reaver is his destiny which is why i said he does not really have any free will, he chose to, but its a choice that he could not escape in truth, its debatable alone whether he had a choice at all

he could have very easily not hae done it
he could have been buried by the Elder God and remained in the Spectral Realm forever
or he could have re-killed Kain
free will relates to the Wheel and the fact no one can see Raziel's destiny which is true no one can tell how Raziel would enter the Reaver

not Moebius, not the Elder God, not Kain

yes kain was and i know but its unusual neither of them forsore his return, just because he was sent there does not neccerily mean he lost his whole fate thing, neither of them knew Kain had come back, which ofc he does come out of the realm eventually, it seems Kain has some omnicience block

it's like Moebius explains to Kaina bout Raziel
Raziel is shrouded from them but they can see the ripples of his actions
Kain had revived in the other dimension and as soon as he got back to Nosgoth he never did much of anything until he confronted Moebius

there was no real way to see him because at this point he too was free from the Wheel

Free will in LOKverse is when you dont have a written fate, everyone in LOKverse has a written fate, Raziel belives and so does kain think that Raziel was released from this, unfortunatley they were wrong

Fate in LOk relates to...the Wheel of Fate
all people have their twisted destinies controlled by the Elder God
to have "free will" is to be liberated from the Wheel in a complete way like Kain and Raziel in that they can never truly die like all other creatures can
even the Ancient vampires with their immortality would die if attacked and their bodies destroyed and their souls were drawn back to the Wheel
Kain's and Raziel's free will comes from their absolute immortality

Originally posted by 123KID
he could have very easily not hae done it
he could have been buried by the Elder God and remained in the Spectral Realm forever
or he could have re-killed Kain
free will relates to the Wheel and the fact no one can see Raziel's destiny which is true no one can tell how Raziel would enter the Reaver

not Moebius, not the Elder God, not Kain

it's like Moebius explains to Kaina bout Raziel
Raziel is shrouded from them but they can see the ripples of his actions
Kain had revived in the other dimension and as soon as he got back to Nosgoth he never did much of anything until he confronted Moebius

there was no real way to see him because at this point he too was free from the Wheel

Fate in LOk relates to...the Wheel of Fate
all people have their twisted destinies controlled by the Elder God
to have "free will" is to be liberated from the Wheel in a complete way like Kain and Raziel in that they can never truly die like all other creatures can
even the Ancient vampires with their immortality would die if attacked and their bodies destroyed and their souls were drawn back to the Wheel
Kain's and Raziel's free will comes from their absolute immortality

thats an assumption, the fact is he did, we could constantly say Kain could of easily allowed Raziel to be taken into the reaver early or chosen a diffrent path than what he is doing or the same with all beings but the fact is they dont and when they try, oddities happen, the fact is Time is immutable which means its already written, there is no true free will, the fact is he always will enter the reaver and is trapped in that same wheel as the guy says in that Q/A

they were always free from the wheel, the Elder Gods wheel they are free from always because of their immortality however there is still a written timeline for them, their fates are written, the wheel of fate is diffrent from fate because its what the EG calls his "wheel" that controls birth, death and then rebirth to feed him.

The Elder God simply controls birth, death and rebirth, what the beings do in this time is indiffrent, also he does not control vampires and immortals. The Ancient vampires never went to the wheel from what i remember, thats why Elder God abandoned them when they first became vampires thanks to the Hyldens spell

thats an assumption, the fact is he did, we could constantly say Kain could of easily allowed Raziel to be taken into the reaver early or chosen a diffrent path than what he is doing or the same with all beings but the fact is they dont and when they try, oddities happen, the fact is Time is immutable which means its already written, there is no true free will, the fact is he always will enter the reaver and is trapped in that same wheel as the guy says in that Q/A

except HOW Raziel enters the Reaver is his CHOICE and his free will
it all comes to the same outcome but Raziel alone can write that part of history with his free will

they were always free from the wheel

kain was not free from the Wheel until his heart was ripped out

the Elder Gods wheel they are free from always because of their immortality however there is still a written timeline for them, their fates are written, the wheel of fate is diffrent from fate because its what the EG calls his "wheel" that controls birth, death and then rebirth to feed him.

ithere are a few kinds of freedom from the EG's Wheel
you can can be a vampire or a ghost like Ariel
their souls never went to the Elder God

then there is true freedom from the Wheel and the free will which Raziel had where your essence can never and will never be "recycled"
as the Elder God can control the destinies of every soul on his Wheel he can essentially control time

The Elder God simply controls birth, death and rebirth, what the beings do in this time is indiffrent,

don't you read what Raziel said ?
every bit of violence in history serves the Elder God and most of it is because of the Elder God
The Elder God is the reason Kain had two choices: damn Nosgoth by living or damn it by dying

The Ancient vampires never went to the wheel from what i remember, thats why Elder God abandoned them when they first became vampires thanks to the Hyldens spell

this was the whole point of Soul Reaver 1
vampires are immortal and that's how they became "liberated" from the Wheel
the Ancients, like the vamps Raziel kills in SR1, have their souls trapped in their body
once they actually are killed by something their soul finally goes back to the Wheel

Originally posted by 123KID
except HOW Raziel enters the Reaver is his CHOICE and his free will
it all comes to the same outcome but Raziel alone can write that part of history with his free will

kain was not free from the Wheel until his heart was ripped out

ithere are a few kinds of freedom from the EG's Wheel
you can can be a vampire or a ghost like Ariel
their souls never went to the Elder God

then there is true freedom from the Wheel and the free will which Raziel had where your essence can never and will never be "recycled"
as the Elder God can control the destinies of every soul on his Wheel he can essentially control time

don't you read what Raziel said ?
every bit of violence in history serves the Elder God and most of it is because of the Elder God
The Elder God is the reason Kain had two choices: damn Nosgoth by living or damn it by dying

this was the whole point of Soul Reaver 1
vampires are immortal and that's how they became "liberated" from the Wheel
the Ancients, like the vamps Raziel kills in SR1, have their souls trapped in their body
once they actually are killed by something their soul finally goes back to the Wheel

its not real free will though, he has no choice about going into the blade, thats where he is going and theres nothing he can do about it

ofcourse he was free, he is an immortal vampire, his soul cannot go to the wheel just like any immortal or vampire, unless Raziel reaves it

Raziel is being poetic, i dont see how what you said there has anything to do with what i said, Elder God does control birth, death and rebirth.....hes taking the souls and the planet is dieing for it

no vampires go to the wheel without a wraith devouring it, if a vampire soul gets released, it becomes a vampire wraith out of SR 1

Originally posted by Fuddle
Kain is not omniscient 😛

He is a very intellectual character, who almost flawlessly forsaw a chain of events and an outcome, but not omniscient. If he were, he would have learnt how to grown wings before Raziel 🙂