Originally posted by Spearhead
lol. Are Christians really that insecure?
At the time that I posted that, I had been up for over 24 hours, and was only thinking along the lines of Christianity, Jeudaism, and Islam. 2 of which require works to get to God, something I believe humans are in capable of.
My apoligies, I stuck my foot in my mouth.
I must now take my leave, for I have an appointment to get the vast majority of my hair hacked off.
Originally posted by LORD JLRTENJAC
None taken. and thank you.Not neccisaraily. Magic is supernatural, but supernatural doesn't have to only be magic. I don't believe in magic either. Supernatural only has to be unexplainable by natural law.
Unexplainable is still natural.
There is only one reality. The future and the past do not exist. All there is in the true nature of reality is now. Time is an illusion because everything changes.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Unexplainable is still natural.There is only one reality. The future and the past do not exist. All there is in the true nature of reality is now. Time is an illusion because everything changes.
True. And that point can also be used towards my point. Supernatural is a word used when Science or non-religious human reasoning can't explain it. Much which is daily stuff for us, centuries past would be consitered supernatural IE. our computers. I believe in things that are considered Supernatural.
Originally posted by LORD JLRTENJAC
True. And that point can also be used towards my point. Supernatural is a word used when Science or non-religious human reasoning can't explain it. Much which is daily stuff for us, centuries past would be consitered supernatural IE. our computers. I believe in things that are considered Supernatural.
If you believe in things that are real, but only called supernatural, there will be some measurable effect in nature.
However, I believe that the prophecies in the bible are a product of postdiction.
Originally posted by ushomefree
First, before we examine the question biblically, it is important to understand that no influential archaeologist has come forward in agreement with the Jesus Family Tomb project. The curator for anthropology and archeology at the Rockefeller Museum in Jerusalem from 1972 to 1997, Joe Zias, states that the project “makes a mockery of the archaeological profession.” Second, there is evidence that the tomb had been disturbed and vandalized. It cannot be verified what was, or what was not, vandalized or stolen. On an archaeological basis alone, there is serious reason to doubt the authenticity of the Jesus Family Tomb project.
[list][*]Shimon Gibson is a British-born, world-renowned archaeologist who completed his Ph.D. on ancient landscapes in the Levant at the Institute of Archaeology, University College, London. Specializing in the Holy Land, Gibson is the author of more than 100 research articles and the co-author of two scientific monographs on the antiquities of Jerusalem. Gibson is also the co-editor of the Archaeological Encyclopedia of the Holy Land and author of the groundbreaking The Cave of John the Baptist. He is also the editor of The Illustrated Dictionary & Concordance of the Bible.
Gibson was co-director of the landmark Mount Zion dig in 1980 that discovered the Jesus ossuary, as well as the ossuaries of Jesus’ family members. Gibson’s discovery made him the first surveyor in the tomb to record the layout. Shimon Gibson has also worked with fellow archaeologist and academic James Tabor on an archaeological dig in the area of Ein Kerem, outside of Jerusalem, at Suba, which appeared to contain primitive Jewish-Christian art depictions of John the Baptist.
Along with Tabor, he discovered the only first century Jewish burial shroud found in Israel, which was located in a Herodian tomb. The director of several excavations and field surveys over the past twenty years in Israel and Palestine, Gibson is currently directing excavations on Mount Zion.
[*]Amos Kloner is associate professor in the Martin Szusz Department of the Land of Israel Studies at the Bar-Ilan University in Ramat Gan, Israel. There he teaches archaeology of the Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine periods. Kloner’s academic research is focused on burials and burial customs during the Second Temple period of Jerusalem. His areas of expertise also include ancient synagogues, artificial caves and classical archaeology.
Kloner’s publications include: Mesillot on the Arnon: An iron age (pre-Romnan) road in Moab, an article from Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research; Seker Yerushalayim: Ha-ezor ha-deromi; and Mareshah: Madrikh (Pirsume Rashut ha-°atikot).
A former Israel Antiquities Authority district archaeologist for the area of Jerusalem, Kloner published an official report on the 1980 Talpiot excavations of the ossuaries believed to belong to Jesus and his family. His archaeological achievements also include the excavation of an amphitheater and underground system of caves used by Jewish rebels during the second Jewish revolt against the Romans during the second century A.D.
[*]David Mevorah is Curator of Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine periods at the Israel Museum in Jerusalem. He was curator of the "Cradle of Christianity: Jewish and Christian Treasures from the Holy Land" exhibition (2000), which included such artifacts as the Temple Scroll, the burial ossuary of Joseph, son of Caiaphas and daily objects decorated with Jewish symbols. Mevorah was also curator for the "Sailing the Dead Sea: Ancient Wooden Anchors" exhibition (2006).[/list]
Originally posted by ushomefree
Historically and culturally speaking, there is further reasoning to reject the ideas of the Jesus Family Tomb project. The names “Jesus, Maria, Matthew, Judas, and Joseph” were all very common names in 1st century Israel. Some cultural historians estimate that as many as 25% of 1st century Jewish women were named Mary (Miriam). The New Testament confirms this by mentioning six different women named Mary, including three who were prominent in Jesus’ life (Jesus’ mother, Mary Magdalene, and Mary of Bethany). It would not be uncommon for a 1st century Jewish family to have the names Jesus (Yeshua), Mary (Miriam), Joseph, and Judas (Judah) – as all were very popular Jewish names (due to their background in the Hebrew Scriptures).
Frequency of Names:
[list][*]Jesus, Son of Joseph: 1/190
[*]Mariamne: 1/160
[*]Matia: 1/40
[*]Maria: 1/4[/list]
Based on these results, it would appear that the names in and of themselves were not uncommon at the time. However, the chances of them being found together are an extremely remote 1 in 97,280,000.
Originally posted by ushomefree
Biblically speaking, there are numerous reasons to reject the idea of the Jesus Family Tomb. First, the New Testament consistently states that Jesus’ family was from Nazareth (Matthew 2:13; Luke 2:4,39,51; John 1:45-46). If Jesus’ family had a tomb, it would have very likely been in Nazareth. Second, the Bible describes Jesus and his adopted father Joseph as carpenters (Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3), likely making them financially poor and of a lower social status. The tomb discovered in Talpiot is the tomb of a wealthy family. Third, the New Testament states that Jesus’ body was buried in a tomb that belonged to Joseph of Arimathea, and that there were witnesses as to where Jesus was buried (Matthew 27:57-61; Mark 15:43-47; Luke 23:50-54; John 19:38-42).
If the archaeological and scientific evidence contradicts The Bible, then perhaps it is The Bible that is wrong.
Originally posted by ushomefree
The "Lost Tomb of Jesus" documentary advocates the concept that Jesus' disciples stole His body from the tomb, and then buried it in His family tomb. If the disciples were going to steal Jesus' body in an attempt to argue for a resurrection, why would they then bury Jesus' body in His own family's tomb, and even inscribe Jesus' name on His ossuary? That does not make any sense whatsoever. If the disciples wanted to fake a resurrection, the last thing they would do would be to bury Jesus in His family tomb (which other people could easily examine) and write Jesus' name on His ossuary (providing undeniable evidence that Jesus was not resurrected). Without even considering the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus, the New Testament account paints an entirely different account of Jesus, His family, and His burial.
The documentary does not purport that the disciples of Jesus moved his body from one tomb to another in order to falsify the resurrection. From the Discovery Channel Feature “The Lost Tomb of Jesus” website:
Resurrection: It is a matter of Christian faith that Jesus of Nazareth was resurrected from the dead three days after his crucifixion circa 30 C.E. This is a central tenet of Christian theology, repeated in all four Gospels. The Lost Tomb of Jesus does not challenge this belief. In the Gospel of Matthew (28:12) it states that a rumor was circulating in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus’ crucifixion. This story holds that Jesus' body was moved by his disciples from the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea, where he was temporarily buried. Ostensibly, his remains were taken to a permanent family tomb. Though Matthew calls this rumor a lie circulated by the high priests, it appears in his Gospel as one of the stories surrounding Jesus’ disappearance from the initial tomb where he was buried. Even if Jesus' body was moved from one tomb to another, however, that does not mean that he could not have been resurrected from the second tomb. Belief in the resurrection is based not on which tomb he was buried in, but on alleged sightings of Jesus that occurred after his burial and documented in the Gospels.Ascension: It is also a matter of Christian faith that after his resurrection, Jesus ascended to heaven. Some Christians believe that this was a spiritual ascension, i.e., his mortal remains were left behind. Other Christians believe that he ascended with his body to heaven. If Jesus’ mortal remains have been found, this would contradict the idea of a physical ascension but not the idea of a spiritual ascension. The latter is consistent with Christian theology.
Originally posted by ushomefree
Now, let’s get to the crux of the matter. The true motivation of the Jesus Family Tomb project is to deny the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The subtitle of the book is given as “The Discovery, the Investigation, and the Evidence That Could Change History.” Cameron, Jacobovici, and co-author Pellegrino have a clear agenda. They do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, that Jesus was God-incarnate, or that Jesus was resurrected after His crucifixion. The discovery of the “Jesus Family Tomb” is simply a convenient basis for their argument, due to the similarities of the names on the ossuaries to the names of Jesus and His family. If it could be proven that the “Jesus Family Tomb” was indeed the tomb of the biblical Jesus of Nazareth and His family, the resurrection would be disproven, thus destroying the very foundation of the Christian faith (see 1 Corinthians chapter 15).
This argument commits the logic fallacy of Appeal to Motivation. Even if we presume that the filmmakers have an agenda, it does not follow from this that the evidence presented in the documentary is untrue.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
[
[b]Frequency of Names:[list][*]Jesus, Son of Joseph: 1/190
[*]Mariamne: 1/160
[*]Matia: 1/40
[*]Maria: 1/4[/list]Based on these results, it would appear that the names in and of themselves were not uncommon at the time. However, the chances of them being found together are an extremely remote 1 in 97,280,000.
[/B]
Never trust the statistics!
Actually it isn't. I know a few statisticians, and they will agree. Nothing as pliable as numbers. Because... no need a lot of info to support the claims. How did you measure? What criteria did you use? What source material?
You'd be amazed how easy it is to juggle with numbers. Just because you don't see all the info that they used or NOT used in coming to these numbers, doesn't mean it's true. Other people did such calcualtions as well and came to muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuchm less remote number. Now... how can that be? Is every one lying except Cameron? Naah... don't think so.
Originally posted by queeq
Actually it isn't. I know a few statisticians, and they will agree. Nothing as pliable as numbers. Because... no need a lot of info to support the claims. How did you measure? What criteria did you use? What source material?
You'd be amazed how easy it is to juggle with numbers. Just because you don't see all the info that they used or NOT used in coming to these numbers, doesn't mean it's true. Other people did such calcualtions as well and came to muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuchm less remote number. Now... how can that be? Is every one lying except Cameron? Naah... don't think so.
I am not interested in "I-am-not-an-authority-but-I-know-one" anecdotes. If you cannot make a substantive statement, then do now make one at all.
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/5029/Many words.
And none that have not already been addressed in some fashion in this thread.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I am not interested in "I-am-not-an-authority-but-I-know-one" anecdotes. If you cannot make a substantive statement, then do now make one at all.
There ya go. That's exactly what those statistics are. The numbers aren't worth anything without knowing where they got them.
I think it was two Biblical Archaeology Reviews back that they present an alternative calculation.
Originally posted by inimalist
I see a pattern emerging...
A dendrochronolgist actually. C4 dating. I even discussed that matter with Prof. Manfred Bietak from Vienna university, one of the world's most reknowned Egyptologists. That too has all to do with statistics and it's damn hard to make solid.
Now, where are your names?