well from what I remember of the Goethe story, Faust wasn't all that impressively cunning. neither was the devil, obviously. rather it was the play of desperation, hope and remorse that came to the fore than a specific contest of wills/wits...
anyhoo, biblical the Devil (accepting the biblical/Quranic depiction that is, not any revisionist/pseudo-religion version) is intelligent but not beyond the wits of angels, saints, prophets and other wise beings. and also, he's on the preordained to lose side 😐.
You guys clearly haven't read Marlowe or Goethe.
Faust never tricked the Devil; he was redeemed by the purity and grace of God. The stories an insidious and rather aggravating attack on the capabilities of human reason.
Anyways, why are we all acting like it's IMPOSSIBLE to beat Lucifer? There were some special circumstances (IE, they had his wings already to infect them) but he was taken down by the Chinese Gods and the Basanos. He would have lost if it had not been for the outside, unexpected, and unwittingly given help of Elaine. In addition, Fenris the Wolf nearly killed him. He's not omnipotent.
So it would require a being of incredible power that can predict the future and eliminate all possible causalities, the embodiment of Destruction (I always wondered about how that meshed with Destruction of the Endless- was Fenris an aspect of him?) and an entire pantheon with prep time. But still, beings other than Micheal, TOAA, or the Presence could take him down.
Originally posted by janus77
well from what I remember of the Goethe story, Faust wasn't all that impressively cunning. neither was the devil, obviously. rather it was the play of desperation, hope and remorse that came to the fore than a specific contest of wills/wits...anyhoo, biblical the Devil (accepting the biblical/Quranic depiction that is, not any revisionist/pseudo-religion version) is intelligent but not beyond the wits of angels, saints, prophets and other wise beings. and also, he's on the preordained to lose side 😐.
Which Biblical devil? There isn't a Biblical Devil- the only mentions of anything even close to a Devil in the Bible is the Snake in the Garden in the first version of the Genesis stories and the Adversary mentioned in the Book of Job, who God makes a bet with.
Originally posted by tjcoady
Which Biblical devil? There isn't a Biblical Devil- the only mentions of anything even close to a Devil in the Bible is the Snake in the Garden in the first version of the Genesis stories and the Adversary mentioned in the Book of Job, who God makes a bet with.
Umm, what are you talking about?
How is there not a biblical devil? 😕
Originally posted by Mindset
Umm, what are you talking about?How is there not a biblical devil? 😕
Have you seriously read the Bible? Quote me the book and passage that talks about a "Lucifer." There's an ambigious passage in Isiah that refers to a "fallen son of dawn," but the notion that it's necessarily an angel is false.
The being known as the "Adversary" has three major appearances in the Bible, not counting a cameo in the Book of Wisdom. We claim that the Serpent in the Garden of Eden is the Devil- there's no contextual evidence for this whatsoever. It's just a Serpent. If we use the term "Devil" to mean one who tempts in anathema to God, then he fits that, but the Serpent is never referred to as the Devil.
The Adversary appears again in Job, as an Angel in God's court whose role it is to debate with God.
And finally there is the Adversary who tempts Christ in his forty days in the Desert. Never once is this being referred to as the Devil, and never once is a mention made that he rebelled against God. The whole idea of the fall of the Angels who rebelled on Lucifer's side is based on a mistaken translation about a secular leader who fell from grace, miserably conflated and twisted by Dante, Milton, and Catholic dogma that felt a need to create such a being.
Originally posted by tjcoady
Have you seriously read the Bible? Quote me the book and passage that talks about a "Lucifer." There's an ambigious passage in Isiah that refers to a "fallen son of dawn," but the notion that it's necessarily an angel is false.The being known as the "Adversary" has three major appearances in the Bible, not counting a cameo in the Book of Wisdom. We claim that the Serpent in the Garden of Eden is the Devil- there's no contextual evidence for this whatsoever. It's just a Serpent. If we use the term "Devil" to mean one who tempts in anathema to God, then he fits that, but the Serpent is never referred to as the Devil.
The Adversary appears again in Job, as an Angel in God's court whose role it is to debate with God.
And finally there is the Adversary who tempts Christ in his forty days in the Desert. Never once is this being referred to as the Devil, and never once is a mention made that he rebelled against God. The whole idea of the fall of the Angels who rebelled on Lucifer's side is based on a mistaken translation about a secular leader who fell from grace, miserably conflated and twisted by Dante, Milton, and Catholic dogma that felt a need to create such a being.
I'm pretty sure Satan the Devil was mentioned many times.
Just to point something out about Lucifer in the comics.
Lucifer rebelled against Yahweh, and became the ruler of Hell, which is all he did forthose 10 billion years. There are plenty of other beings, Neron, etc, who all claimed and acted as the Devil, and we know that the other angels in heaven were busy brainwashing every in the DCU.
We have no actual in DC evidence that Lucifer Morningstar is the same being or beings who have committed those diabolic acts in his name, ie while claiming to be him.
As to the OP, nothing below the LT has a chance. The LT could slow him down maybe, but that's about it.
As to the Chinese gods, Lucifer did not have his wings, as to the Basanos, they never in any way threanted full power Lucifer, only his interests, and as to Fenris, Lucifer was playing possum.
Originally posted by thtadthtshldntb
Just to point something out about Lucifer in the comics.Lucifer rebelled against Yahweh, and became the ruler of Hell, which is all he did forthose 10 billion years. There are plenty of other beings, Neron, etc, who all claimed and acted as the Devil, and we know that the other angels in heaven were busy brainwashing every in the DCU.
We have no actual in DC evidence that Lucifer Morningstar is the same being or beings who have committed those diabolic acts in his name, ie while claiming to be him.
As to the OP, nothing below the LT has a chance. The LT could slow him down maybe, but that's about it.
As to the Chinese gods, Lucifer did not have his wings, as to the Basanos, they never in any way threanted full power Lucifer, only his interests, and as to Fenris, Lucifer was playing possum.
What are you talking about? The Basanos actually destroyed him. Death came over to chat with him and wait for him to die. Elaine had to die in order to get enough power for Lucifer to reform himself.
Although, it was his own power that was being used against him.
And again, the Neron/Lucifer difference just gets chalked up to that Vertigo and the DCU are different sets of stories.