EVANGEL94's Final Slugfest Tournament Discussion Thread: Questions, Comments, & Talk

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Lulz at people telling me what I should've done instead in my matches. Especially gundam, who told me I shouldn't have made the Galactus gun in a match where I...um..didn't. The goober match wasn't in the caves, and was the only one where I made the gun. Anyway, I smiled.

Also, I fail to see how MB's ringing endorsement of Evangel "letting me through" in the Stacks is a good thing, and absolves the rule change. "Congrats, you win! Now just don't do anything you've done up to this point in the tournament.....and good luck." The issue was never the Stacks match, where it was clear no one would vote for him. It was the rule change. But kudos on changing the point.

😕

Digimark,

Matter manipulation, wasn't the problem. I don't have a problem when you create the raw materials or components using matter manipulation, but when you start having advanced weapons and technology appear and be ready to go with mere thought of the Doctor is when it starts to infringe on instant technology.

My ruling allowed you to still create the raw materials and the technological components using the Doctor's matter manipulation and have Reed and Lex assemble it on the battlefield. Then the voters could vote taking into consideration your team's raw combat power, and what you could conceivably assemble within your 15 minute time period to counter your opponent. It's fair to you, and to everyone else who has preparation and lab time as well.

Your team was still very much capable of competing in this tournament especially with Thor, the Doctor, and spying on the opponent. Inorganic Matter Manipulation isn't just a tool to create tech; it is also a weapon. A weapon you could have used against your opponents (throwing a mountain on them, burying them in rock and various other materials, breaking apart their equipment etc). Plus, I am sure the Doctor also has Psi and Tk powers. Thor doesn't need explanation from me as everyone knows what he can do.

You didn't even need the various lavish (such as the galactus busting gun) technologies you were trying to assemble to win. You could have viewed what your opponent was doing in prep via spying, then create only the necessary technology on the battlefield technology to counter them.

- Fighting Dr. Doom or Iron Man? Build a quick and dirty EMP gun.

- Fighting Superman? Talk to lex and take advantage of his weakness by emitting kryptonite radiation.

- Fighting Juggernaut? Use Thor's hammer to cut him off from cytorak, and use the Doctor's psi and tk to take him out.

- And the list goes on and on.

I would be more sympathetic to your team but clearly your team wasn't as crippled from the ruling as you're trying to make it out to be. While I did limit matter manipulation initially, your neglecting to mention that I changed the rule again and simply stopped you from instantly creating tech with a mere thought; but you can still attempt to create the raw materials, components, and assemble tech necessary using Lex and Reed for the battle. It was a fair ruling to both you and your opponents, that also created a level playing field and creative atmosphere that could potentially lead to participants creating different winning strategies. A potential which you ignored when you decided to quit this tournament.

-Evangel94

Its not the compromise. Its the principle of the matter. Changing a rule halfway through the tournament, no matter how you spin it, should not be happening.

It wasn't a matter of his team being crippled. It was the rule being changed in order to make it so he couldn't do what he wanted. Yes, you changed it back but he had already been disenchanted.

Unless I am completely misunderstanding the issue, no rule was actually changed. The rule was 'no instant tech', and still is 'no instant tech'.

Evangel failed to enforce it for Digi's first few matches (which is a legitimate gripe for Digi).

She enforced it in the match against Papa Smurph. So, from the way I'm looking at it, it's not that she changed a rule, rather she started enforcing a rule that was always there, but previously not enforced.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Its not the compromise. Its the principle of the matter. Changing a rule halfway through the tournament, no matter how you spin it, should not be happening.

I didn't change any rules. The rules were in place before the tournament began. However, the proposition was brought up that what Digimark was attempting to do in his 15 minutes of preparation time violated the already set "instant tech ability" rule.

Clearly, there was a conflict that needed to be resolved, and although it was in the middle of the tournament, a clarification was requested.

-Evangel94

Originally posted by Master-Borg
Unless I am completely misunderstanding the issue, no rule was actually changed. The rule was 'no instant tech', and still is 'no instant tech'.

Evangel failed to enforce it for Digi's first few matches (which is a legitimate gripe for Digi).

She enforced it in the match against Papa Smurph. So, from the way I'm looking at it, it's not that she changed a rule, rather she started enforcing a rule that was always there, but previously not enforced.

Master-Borg wrote on Mar 26th, 2008 05:53 PM:
dood, I'm done with the issue.

I admit I didn't know as much of the backstory as was the case, which may have impacted my judgments.

I didnt stick my neck in to add fuel to the fire, I just felt Evangel was being criticized unfairly by everyone.

anyways Im done.

Your words no? Thought you were butting out.

Originally posted by Evangel94
I didn't change any rules. The rules were in place before the tournament began. However, the proposition was brought up that what Digimark was attempting to do in his 15 minutes of preparation time violated the already set "instant tech ability" rule.

Clearly, there was a conflict that needed to be resolved, and although it was in the middle of the tournament, a clarification was needed.

-Evangel94

Originally posted by Evangel94
Alright Tournament Participants.,

I've heard your [b]multiple complaints and arguments (you know who you are) citing the use of matter manipulation to create super advanced technology as a violation of the instant technology purchase.

Originally, I allowed inoragnic matter manipulation as a weapon or tool to be used in prep and the battle. I thought it would be used for those who wish to transmute rocks into metals and primitive weapons, or those who wanted to transmute an enemy's armor and weapons into something else. But clearly in practice this is not what has happened. I've heard what you said repeatedly to me about the matter, and I cannot in good conscious allow matter manipulation to be used to create super advanced technology.

Therefore, from now on, matter manipulation cannot be used to create super advanced technology (unless you purchased the instant tech ability). I apologize in advance to which this ruling affects. However, I am sure you can use inorganic matter manipulation as an offensive and defensive weapon rather than a prep based tool

-Evangel94 [/B]

Originally... From now on...

Yeah you CLEARLY changed the rules.

Yes, you changed them back... But I'd appreciate it if people would quit lieing when they can be caught so easily.

Originally posted by Evangel94
Digimark,

Matter manipulation, wasn't the problem. I don't have a problem when you create the raw materials or components using matter manipulation, but when you start having advanced weapons and technology appear and be ready to go with mere thought of the Doctor is when it starts to infringe on instant technology.

My ruling allowed you to still create the raw materials and the technological components using the Doctor's matter manipulation and have Reed and Lex assemble it on the battlefield. Then the voters could vote taking into consideration your team's raw combat power, and what you could conceivably assemble within your 15 minute time period to counter your opponent. It's fair to you, and to everyone else who has preparation and lab time as well.

Your team was still very much capable of competing in this tournament especially with Thor, the Doctor, and spying on the opponent. Inorganic Matter Manipulation isn't just a tool to create tech; it is also a weapon. A weapon you could have used against your opponents (throwing a mountain on them, burying them in rock and various other materials, breaking apart their equipment etc). Plus, I am sure the Doctor also has Psi and Tk powers. Thor doesn't need explanation from me as everyone knows what he can do.

You didn't even [b]need the various lavish (such as the galactus busting gun) technologies you were trying to assemble to win. You could have viewed what your opponent was doing in prep via spying, then create only the necessary technology on the battlefield technology to counter them. [/B]

Evangel, don't tell me what I do and don't need in battle.

I told you exactly what I would be doing in my matches before the tourney started and you approved it. There was nothing to clarify because I spelled it out exactly, and it was approved. Then you told me I couldn't. End of story.

If you had banned the tactic, I wouldn't have had a problem with it. But at the proper time. Not after I had spent days/weeks prepping for the strategy that got banned.

So don't try to lie to me and tell me it was a clarification. I saw you approve it multiple times, and posted it all in my defense. Via PM, in the discussion thread, in my matches....Cresh also re-posted some of it in case you missed it.

Originally posted by Evangel94
I would be more sympathetic to your team but [b]clearly your team wasn't as crippled from the ruling as you're trying to make it out to be. [/B]

And this makes your decision ok because...? I fail to see how it connects.

I still had options, sure. More than most realize, given my knowledge of the Doctor. But I also lost 2 of my picks, and wouldn't have had nearly the power available to me without the tech. And I would've lost eventually...I went from being a favorite to having some dead weight and being an underdog. I play to win, not to play lap dog to every ruling you make on a whim.

But that is missing the point. You're justifying a rule change because...I still had some power? You'd be more sympathetic about your being wrong if it had hurt me even worse? Wrong is wrong, the degree doesn't matter. And in this case, it was large enough to make a substantial difference, regardless of your thoughts on the subject.

that's classy Creshosk, posting my PM without asking to make a point. Gee, I wonder why it's called private message?

Also, you were wrong about me needing to 'butt out' just because I'm not a competitor. I am a voter, and therefore, I have just as much at stake.

And pointing out semantic issues to support your argument (Evangel's use of 'from now on'😉 just speaks to the lack of substance to your argument.

So let me spell out her point for you, since you seem to either misunderstand it or deliberately mischaracterizing it.

Evangel's point was she originally allowed inorganic matter manipulation for people to create simple objects or weapons. She did not think people would use it to create advanced technology instantly.
ONCE it came to her attention that it WAS being used to make instant tech, she had to issue a statement that FROM NOW ON no more instant tech from matter manipulation. She could've been an ass, and nullified previous victories and said that any battle prior that made instant tech from matter manipulation would be nullified, but she was generous and only enforced it from NOW ON, so previous victories that broke the rule remained intact.

Originally posted by Creshosk
That's funny, you lied to me.

Your words no? Thought you were butting out.

Oh I'm sorry did you forget your own words as well?

Originally... From now on...

Yeah you CLEARLY changed the rules.

Yes, you changed them back... But I'd appreciate it if people would quit lieing when they can be caught so easily.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

If you had banned the tactic, I wouldn't have had a problem with it. But at the proper time. Not after I had spent days/weeks prepping for the strategy that got banned.

Yeah, you def have a legitimate gripe there. I wonder why Evangel didn't ban the tactic in the very first instance you used it.

Originally posted by Air Legend
Just shut the **** up. Just because she didn't articulate herself well in the heat of the moment doesn't mean she changed the rules.

But she did. Cresh is being overt about it and rubbing people the wrong way, but that doesn't make him wrong. We've both posted multiple times where she clearly changed the rule mid-tourney, not clarifying a vague rule. If she's claiming otherwise, she isn't even aware of her own rulings, or is just trying to save face by ignoring the obvious. Hell, Cresh just posted where she herself said she changed it, so she's fully aware of it.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
Yeah, you def have a legitimate gripe there. I wonder why Evangel didn't ban the tactic in the very first instance you used it.

Or pre-tourney when I first asked about it and told her the exact tactic I'd be using, or when it was brought up the first time, or...

So yeah.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
that's classy Creshosk, posting my PM without asking to make a point. Gee, I wonder why it's called private message?

Originally posted by Master-Borg
Also, you were wrong about me needing to 'butt out' just because I'm not a competitor. I am a voter, and therefore, I have just as much at stake.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
And pointing out semantic issues to support your argument (Evangel's use of 'from now on'😉 just speaks to the lack of substance to your argument.

But I guess they don't in your case since "I'm donte with the topic" means "I'm going to continue with the topic" to you.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
So let me spell out her point for you, since you seem to either misunderstand it or deliberately mischaracterizing it.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
Evangel's point was she originally allowed inorganic matter manipulation for people to create simple objects or weapons. She did not think people would use it to create advanced technology instantly.
ONCE it came to her attention that it WAS being used to make instant tech, she had to issue a statement that FROM NOW ON no more instant tech from matter manipulation. She could've been an ass,

Originally posted by Master-Borg
and nullified previous victories and said that any battle prior that made instant tech from matter manipulation would be nullified, but she was generous and only enforced it from NOW ON, so previous victories that broke the rule remained intact.

"Originally, I allowed inoragnic matter manipulation as a weapon or tool to be used in prep and the battle."
"However, I am sure you can use inorganic matter manipulation as an offensive and defensive weapon rather than a prep based tool"

Originally posted by Master-Borg
I wonder why Evangel didn't ban the tactic in the very first instance you used it.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Wher'es it written I need your permission to revel something in MY inbox?

nowhere.

But it involves a concept you prob aren't familiar with, called courtesy.

Originally posted by Air Legend
Cuz nobody bitched about enough cuz they felt their team could beat his team regardless. Obviously Stack's felt his team couldn't overcome the obstacle, and with reason, effectively argued that Digi's plan was illegal.

she should've banned it regardless. a violation of rule is no less egregious just because it doesn't have a big impact. honestly, Evangel does have some fault for this situation.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
nowhere.

But it involves a concept you prob aren't familiar with, called courtesy.

Oh that's rich...

I noticed you cropped the rest of this to pathetically attempt to take a shot at me.

So I'll ask you agian, what is your stake in this troll?

Originally posted by Air Legend
Cuz nobody bitched about it enough cuz they felt their team could beat his team regardless. Obviously Stack's felt his team couldn't overcome the obstacle, and with reason, effectively argued that Digi's plan was illegal.

Except, as before, it wasn't illegal at first. Then he complained and she changed it. That's the whole freaking issue. She even said in my match with him, after reading the prep plan, that it was legal....then when he complained enough she caved.

Also, lulz at Stacks using reason.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Except, as before, it wasn't illegal at first. Then he complained and she changed it. That's the whole freaking issue. She even said in my match with him, after reading the prep plan, that it was legal....then when he complained enough she caved.

Also, lulz at Stacks using reason.

Originally posted by Air Legend
Well it was illegal, not that I bought in to the 15 minute building galactus gun scheme in the first place, cuz you claim the Doctor can INSTANTLY create tech. You would have had to paid much more for such a character if Evangel was fully aware of the strategy you had in mind.

well, according to Digi, Evangel WAS aware of Digi's plan. If so, her failure to ban the tactic outright is definitely blameworthy in the mess that ensued.

Originally posted by Creshosk

So I'll ask you agian, what is your stake in this troll?

As I have already stated, as a voter in this tournament, I am also a participant and therefore have an interest in seeing that the tourney is run fairly.

Also, if you have noticed, I don't have a personal bias here. Since Im not a competitor, the ruling doesn't help me or hurt me. So I suffer from no conflict of interest in giving my opinions. And I have already stated, Evangel made a big mistake by not enforcing the rule in the very beginning.