Drop dead Nebaris.
Anyways, here's why Anakin gets pwned:
The only way to make Sion stop fighting and die is to reason with him, and Anakin's reasoning consists of whining, yelling and angst.
Not a pretty picture for Anakin:
Near Immortal Sith Lord vs. Whiny newly made Jedi Knight that yells a lot
Eh. Sion wins.
Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
Why does everyone hate this Nebaris?
"Hate" is relative, but I'm certain that no one here actually hates one another. The problem that most of us have with Nebaris is that he was banned, once (and I can't remember the offense), but keeps coming back to the forums, account after account, and he's well over the dozen-mark. I will be the first to stand up for him; he's a very intelligent guy and he's very relentless (his drive is like mine a year or so ago). The conflicts that emerge, however, is that he attempts to disrupt the status quo with arguments that hinge on one or two abstract points that are not logically sound. When he's confronted with a canon statement or fact that he does not like, he throws up the "ambiguity" card in an attempt to nullify it. When he's confronted with the fact that he can't prove a certain skill or power for one of his favorite characters, he'll throw up the "absence of proof" clause in an attempt to prevent us from assuming the contrary. He also finds himself very amusing and tends to degrade debates into lectures on "who is wittier!" and repeatedly calls Darth Sexy "Darth Repetitive" (though he's being repetitive himself). In essence, he rarely offers anything new that would have a strong change on the overall argument, though he's very skilled at nitpicking (which is a compliment, Nebaris).
Not to mention Nebaris has literally been banned from Kmc over 30 times now. But I think Anakin overall is the better fighter but it depends on Sion's ability and if it truly works in areas not strong in the darkside. Which I seriously have my doubts about.(and I already said why in the other thread) I think I give it to about Anakin 70/30(it may be a little high) due to Sion's ability and if Anakin can cut off his hand/s like with Dooku then he wins or he could decapitate him.
Sion has always been a difficult character to discuss. Many people confuse the meanings of the word immortal and invincible, but the ironic thing about him is that he is, actually, neither.
Immortal --- definition: "Immortality (or eternal life) is the concept of living in physical or spiritual form for an infinite length of time". He is not eternal. When someone is immortal, you simply cannot die in any way. The fact that Sion can die, takes the word immortality out of the way.
Invincible --- definition: "impossible to defeat, overcome, or deny". Sion is not, by any means, impossible to defeat. If someone is able to talk him to his death, then he is, even if it's only in one clumsy way, defeatable.
Just felt like pointing that out.
As to the fight, Anakin is superior to Sion in every way. Even if he is not able to talk him to his death, I believe Sion might (sooner or later) think he will never be able to defeat someone such as him, and will eventually choose to die.
If Sion does not surrender, and Anakin is not able to talk him to his death, then he will (after a very long period of time) defeat him.
As to the fight, Anakin is superior to Sion in every way. Even if he is not able to talk him to his death, I believe Sion might (sooner or later) think he will never be able to defeat someone such as him, and will eventually choose to die.
If Sion does not surrender, and Anakin is not able to talk him to his death, then he will (after a very long period of time) defeat him.
I expect you can formulate a good argument to substantiate these claims, right?
I expect you can formulate a good argument to substantiate these claims, right?
Right, like you've done on this thread (and the one where he's pitted against Palpatine) where Sion has demonstrated some remarkable skill? Sion's only shot at victory is the hope that Anakin "Force-Train" Skywalker will run out of energy.
This makes it pretty clear of the following:
1. Sion embraces the Dark Side fully, it giving him power. He seems to be boosted in places of evil.
2. Sion has a soft spot for the Exile and does not destroy her when he has plenty of opportunity to do so.
3. SIon cannot be defeated by lightsaber combat apparently. He rejuvenates himself using the Dark Side, and keeps his body intact. So unless you honestly think the Exile was hitting him with a frying pan, there's no reason to assume he can not take a lightsaber stab or swing and heal or plain just keep coming. All he has to do is block one attack with his hand and stab with the other and any opponent is immediately overcome. Anyone who's seen the final fight in Rob Roy can understand the importance of self-preservation NOT being a factor in a fight.
4. Sion uses Force Drain too. This isn't a great surprise, since Traya said pretty much all the Sith Assassins do it, but to see him use it in action means he can use it against Sidious. And he can see Sidious, so there's none of this "omfg can't see lol" argument going for him. No one's conclusively proved that Quey'tek prevents Force Eating, either.
1. You see Sion heal in mid-combat here after taking serious damage.
2. Kreia pretty much says Sion is not a typical living being and cannot be defeated. She also implies that places of Dark Side strength make him too much for the Exile and her friends, though it seems from most canon sources that any such place aids Dark Siders in general.
Add to all this the scan of Sion's body found onboard the Harbinger (When they show his body broken, maimed, and remended in thousands of different places), and it would stand to reason that Sion cannot simply be swatted away or cut down with ease.
Considering that both of you feel Sidious can prep a defense for Nihilus within a heartbeat simply by reading his holocron (And somehow that's acceptable reasoning), I conclude based on the above that Sion cannot be properly defeated or killed in personal combat since he is not of "flesh and blood" and may heal and keep his body intact when it should by all intents and purposes be in pieces on the floor.
Sion rushes Anakin, kills him. Period. Anakin has never shown the kind of forward thinking that would make him good enough to last against someone who cannot rightly be killed.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Final Fight- Darth SionThis makes it pretty clear of the following:
1. Sion embraces the Dark Side fully, it giving him power. He seems to be boosted in places of evil.
3. SIon cannot be defeated by lightsaber combat apparently. He rejuvenates himself using the Dark Side, and keeps his body intact. So unless you honestly think the Exile was hitting him with a frying pan, there's no reason to assume he can not take a lightsaber stab or swing and heal or plain just keep coming. All he has to do is block one attack with his hand and stab with the other and any opponent is immediately overcome. Anyone who's seen the final fight in Rob Roy can understand the importance of self-preservation NOT being a factor in a fight.
4. Sion uses Force Drain too. This isn't a great surprise, since Traya said pretty much all the Sith Assassins do it, but to see him use it in action means he can use it against Sidious. And he can see Sidious, so there's none of this "omfg can't see lol" argument going for him. No one's conclusively proved that Quey'tek prevents Force Eating, either.
Sion- First Fight on Korriban1. You see Sion heal in mid-combat here after taking serious damage.
2. Kreia pretty much says Sion is not a typical living being and cannot be defeated. She also implies that places of Dark Side strength make him too much for the Exile and her friends, though it seems from most canon sources that any such place aids Dark Siders in general.
Add to all this the scan of Sion's body found onboard the Harbinger (When they show his body broken, maimed, and remended in thousands of different places), and it would stand to reason that Sion cannot simply be swatted away or cut down with ease.
Considering that both of you feel Sidious can prep a defense for Nihilus within a heartbeat simply by reading his holocron (And somehow that's acceptable reasoning)
, I conclude based on the above that Sion cannot be properly defeated or killed in personal combat since he is not of "flesh and blood" and may heal and keep his body intact when it should by all intents and purposes be in pieces on the floor.Sion rushes Anakin, kills him. Period. Anakin has never shown the kind of forward thinking that would make him good enough to last against someone who cannot rightly be killed.
You want to argue that? Show me ANY proof of Sion's saber abilities/. Unlike darth bane, you can cut Sion physically. Show me evidence Sion's head remains on when a saber slices clean through his neck or cease arguing.
I wanted sources! In fact, I want to hold you to the same standards you claim to have except when you need to prove something.
For the benefit of others, my response to Janus elsewhere:
Thank you, Janus. Yes, we know Sion can take damage. Can he or can he not keep his head and limbs attached them they're sliced clean through or can't he? Can he or can't he? Proof? Now? Show us?
"I proved Sion can take a lot of damage!" Good for you! We know, we knew. We want PROOF he can still fight when decapitated, because quite frankly, I'm asking you to prove that his body will stay attached when sliced up, especially when he's on CORUSCANT. In fact, I don't think you actually CAN prove that. In fact, I'm pretty sure you can't.
And way to ignore Palpatine's students display the ability of complete masking! Or that two Sith in his teaching line do the same and it would logically be necessary in Bane's line! Funny how that logic works. So the ancient Sith can know and deal with the Force drain, but Palpatine obviously doesn't know what his students and teacher's teachers do! Nope, that's illogical. Completely.
Funny how Vergere uses the force subtly and the Yammosks never pick her up..proof using the force reveals you? Hey, Zannah is using it too and nothing picks her up. Not the numerous Jedi above her head, certainly.
And he CAN use it instantly. If LUMIYA, a being with little force ability can use it without effort, or Jacen, or vergere, all Palp's inferiors can use it instantly...how does it follow Palpatine can't?
And then there's Sion, who you've yet to prove can take being sliced clean through by a superior saber opponent, who never uses Force Drain to any fatal degree (Sorry, Janus, gameplay doesn't count. I know this probably cuts out part of your argument, but otherwise Nihilus can use Death Field on the Exile. And hey, wait a sec...Sion can use it on the exile, too! Coincidentally gameplay! Meaning...absolutely nothing unless random sIth peon 451 can take Palpatine too. Yeah, right, even dark side Exile has to actually DEFEAT the opponents first).
Try winning the argument next time, Janus, and try to actually use your own standards. In fact, why don't you show evidence when you're continuously asked? You're conspicuously silent when asked for proof Sion can tank hits that'll slice clean through his neck. Or use Force drain when he can't find someone's force presence. He may know Palpatine's there, but he still needs to FIGHT him. At what point does Sion actually use Force drain on an opponent? Hey, wait...there was none of it on Traya when he first met her again...or any of the Exile's very force sensitive companions. Say, maybe he just won't use it in a fight? Maybe his personality can be taken into account? Maybe the point you're trying to use is totally defunct?
Way to ignore everything Nikk and I posted, Janus. Nope, ignoring completely how Nihilus doesn't notice human presences, that he will feel them 'unless they mask their presence.' So that leaves Sion...who you've yet to prove, despite being asked many times, can deal with losing limbs and head to saber slashes, or has any great skill with a saber whatsoever, especially to the level Palpatine is on.
So, try again. And try taking a good look at what you post before you start whining at me for lacking proof.
And if it's not a place of evil?
Then there's obviously a marked decrease in his ability to draw on the Dark Side. Thankfully for him, this hasn't hindered him from keeping his body in one-piece while elsewhere.
He says he cannot be killed on Malachor, specifically. Outside, though? What, exactly, keeps his body together if sliced cleanly through with a saber? And in Rob Roy, Rob won because Archibald took the moment to gloat and grabbed Archibald's sword. If anyone fights without self preservation, it's Darth bane
I'm not so sure I understand why you keep insisting that someone will "slice cleanly" through Sion using a saber-- What is he going to be doing? Nothing? Does it matter? Sidious could lop off an arm if I were to just agree and say "he can be maimed", and then Sion kills him with the other arm. BFD. The game states that Sion is unbeatable, which in turn either implies that he cannot be defeated because he's that good or his body cannot be destroyed. Take your pick.
He uses it on who, now? And is there an odd reason Palpatine is going to be incapable of using it on him? Noticeably, Sion's draining is never fatal when used.
Who cares if it is fatal? Sids gets Force Drained, he gets stunned and his concentration is broken; Nihilus sees him and eats him. GG.
And actually, Janus, you keep dancing around the argument, refusing to admit the possibility you can be wrong unless someone shows a direct reference to someone using Quey'Tek to counter a force drain?
Question: If Sion can't feel Palpatine in the force, how can he drain him through it?
Or, y'know, he just can't.
Remember, I'm not the one here asserting that Qey'tek makes one invisible to sense through the Force. If anything, source materials contradict this. Ventress uses the technique in The Cestus Deception, yet Obi-Wan still knows something is wrong in the cantina, because he can feel an absence.
Now, even if Sion can't rightly feel Sidious well through the Force, what stops him from just zapping him anyways? Unlike Nihilus, he does not rely on the Force to see. He can use it as a weapon and to fuel his own powers, but he is not a slave to it like Nihilus. Sion could blast Lightning at Sidious; Sidious must block or counter with his own lightning. Nihilus knows something's going on; he can then react in kind. He'll probably push in the general direction or shoot out lightning or just do some massive Force drain storm which will absorb Sidious and half of Coruscant behind him. Who cares. Either way, Sidious cannot withstand a concentrated assault by two Sith Lords of amazing power irregardless if he "goes invisible" using some insta-meditation. And if you presume that Nihilus is going to be ignorant of Sidious' presence and altogether unable to do anything but stand there and die, you're twisting the parameters of the fight and dumbing down the opposition; two very big crimes in Versus Threads.
Gameplay. I'm so convinced. You know what happened in MY game? The Exile ran around laying mines and lured Sion into them.
Gameplay would be specifically those elements made and/or used for gameplay purposes. We don't count cutscenes as gameplay; Sion heals himself both during battle and during cutscenes. So unless the game designers wanted to add him healing as a gameplay mechanic and somehow he is incapable of doing this at any other time unless dramatically appropriate, it still stands to reason that Sion is not going to be just WTFpwned by Sidious in lightsaber combat while Nihilus stands there and picks his nose.
At what point does she explicitly say he cannot be defeated? she also says he knows nothing of power or teaching. And does Kreia ever say "Oh, and if you cut at his neck, his head stays on'?
Watch the video entirely, LS. If you missed this, you must not have been listening at all. It's right in the video I linked you to.
Sabers. They cut. And they cauterize as they cut. And they cut just about everything. Sion's bare flesh included. Anakin can easily divest him of limbs.
Ah yeah, great way to over-simplify the fight, LS. Good job.
Sion's body is already beyond clinical death. His body is held together by the Force and by his own will. He has been through more pain and damage than Anakin could fathom, and Anakin was out of the fight when his arm was lopped off in AotC. Even if Anakin somehow blitzes Sion and gets in close, Sion can kill him with whatever arm is left over assuming he doesn't just kill him with his saber anyways. So unless you want to argue that Sion is a human jigsaw puzzle who will easily be knocked into pieces by Anakin "I run headlong into all my lightsaber fights and give in to my rage so I get schooled by anyone who has talent and a level head" Skywalker, stop being guilty of misrepresenting evidence and stacking the deck.
But the Ancient Sith knew the technique so they MUST know the technique! And Palpatine learned from them AND has studied Nihilus's holocron...wait.
You don't get it- the idea that Sidious, when put in the same room as his two opponents, is suddenly going to say "Hey, that's Nihilus. I should use a high level of Qey'tek so I can be invisible to him" and then implement it in less time than it takes for him to get shocked/thrown/frozen/eaten/cut up/rushed is RIDICULOUS. Accept this finally.
Yet he's shown ability to fight and defeat skilled saber combatants.
Sion rushes Anakin and his head flies off.You want to argue that? Show me ANY proof of Sion's saber abilities/. Unlike darth bane, you can cut Sion physically. Show me evidence Sion's head remains on when a saber slices clean through his neck or cease arguing.
I wanted sources! In fact, I want to hold you to the same standards you claim to have except when you need to prove something.
How ridiculous, LS. I expected better of you.
"OMFG there's no real stack up type proof of Sion using his lightsaber outside of the video game which is the primary media from which he sprang.... OMFG OMFGOGOMFOMGOMFOMFOGM he can't swing his lightsaber fast enough to block attacks from Anakin and Sidious! He just can't! You have to conclusively prove to me that he's good enough to block and fight as well as any old SW character because I claim he'll be struck down in seconds!!!11 Absence of proof = my argument is unbeatable!!1111 I don't have to prove that Sidious is offensively good enough to defeat other Sith Lords of legendary status using a lightsaber!!!11 He can use all techniques flawlessly, instantly, and without prep!!1111 I am not a fanboy, I swear!!!11111.... Que Escape who will nitpick on stupid little points like the above use of "legendary", or he will argue worthless semantics and ignore any feats of Sidious' opposition because neither of us can sleep properly when our reverence for Sidious is challenged!!!1"
I mean seriously... Both of you are not stupid. And you're not lacking in SW knowledge, but both of you are tiresome when it comes to your rabid defense of this character. It's enough to make debating here at KMC unattractive because every single thread is a potential Sidious-bomb waiting to happen. I've presented my argument and I'm satisfied with its conclusions. I've provided sources, sound reasoning, and even a coherent breakdown of both sides with why I disagree with your side, what the flaws and major assumptions are, and the overall lack of moderation in your stances. I've never initially claimed that Nihilus and Sion would just bend Sidious over his office table and serve him up, but you seem to think that some liberal NEC hyperbole and your own personal opinions will stretch canon sources and showings enough for him to be better than any other Sith Lord who is lacking in showings. You know, because all the other Sith Lords should have an equal chance at airtime and source material which references their abilities.
Anyways, I'm done with this crap. You can go ahead and reply if it makes you feel better, but you and Escape are ruining these forums with your ridiculous favoritism and refusal to see Sdious as anything but fallible and mortal. At the very least I have the grace to admit when points I've made were premature, not well researched, or plain wrong; neither of you ever have had such grace concerning Sidious.
No offense Janus, but I could say the exact same thing about you and your anti Sidious bias on EOD. You are NOT an objective debater, albeit a very intelligent one. You are constantly looking for holes to distract Sidious claiming "in unverse" or whatever other justification you are making. Now, you do realize that an inferior force user's force powers won't do much if anything on a vastly superior force user? If you conveniently forgot, look to Odan Urr's "wall of Light" attack on Exar Kun, who just got force pushed. There is NOTHING indicating any force abilities of Sion could break through Sidious' attack. The ONLY attack that would work would be Nihilus. I am not going to argue Sion's invincibility because I haven't seen the video and frankly, I care very little about it at this point, but stop downplaying Sidious in a ridiculous and illogical fashion. Everyone knows me to be a Marka Ragnos/Ancient Sith fanboy but after all of this time, I am at piece with all the canon sources and with Sidious being #1. You apparently aren't and this is very evident here and EOD. I have noticed people that can't win arguments here go to EOD to rehash the same defeated points, especially against Sidious and that's fine. But if you are going to call other people biased/subjective, take a good look in the mirror and realize that at least they have direct sources for their "bias".
Originally posted by Janus Marius
[B]Then there's obviously a marked decrease in his ability to draw on the Dark Side. Thankfully for him, this hasn't hindered him from keeping his body in one-piece while elsewhere.
I'm not so sure I understand why you keep insisting that someone will "slice cleanly" through Sion using a saber-- What is he going to be doing? Nothing?
Does it matter? Sidious could lop off an arm if I were to just agree and say "he can be maimed", and then Sion kills him with the other arm. BFD. The game states that Sion is unbe. atable, which in turn either implies that he cannot be defeated because he's that good or his body cannot be destroyed. Take your pick.
<I>
Who cares if it is fatal? Sids gets Force Drained, he gets stunned and his concentration is broken; Nihilus sees him and eats him. GG.</I>
Oh, so it's NOT fatal? Because it stops...ANYONE in the game whatsoever? Where is anyone even 'stunned?' by it? Oh, and concentration is hardly even needed to mask oneself. Learn about what you're talking about first, kthx
Remember, I'm not the one here asserting that Qey'tek makes one invisible to sense through the Force. If anything, source materials contradict this. Ventress uses the technique in The Cestus Deception, yet Obi-Wan still knows something is wrong in the cantina, because he can feel an absence.
Now, even if Sion can't rightly feel Sidious well through the Force, what stops him from just zapping him anyways? Unlike Nihilus, he does not rely on the Force to see. He can use it as a weapon and to fuel his own powers, but he is not a slave to it like Nihilus. Sion could blast Lightning at Sidious; Sidious must block or counter with his own lightning.
Nihilus knows something's going on; he can then react in kind.
Either way, Sidious cannot withstand a concentrated assault by two Sith Lords of amazing power irregardless if he "goes invisible" using some insta-meditation.
And if you presume that Nihilus is going to be ignorant of Sidious' presence and altogether unable to do anything but stand there and die, you're twisting the parameters of the fight and dumbing down the opposition; two very big crimes in Versus Threads.
Gameplay would be specifically those elements made and/or used for gameplay purposes. We don't count cutscenes as gameplay; Sion heals himself both during battle and during cutscenes.
So unless the game designers wanted to add him healing as a gameplay mechanic and somehow he is incapable of doing this at any other time unless dramatically appropriate, it still stands to reason that Sion is not going to be just WTFpwned by Sidious in lightsaber combat while Nihilus stands there and picks his nose.
Watch the video entirely, LS. If you missed this, you must not have been listening at all. It's right in the video I linked you to.
Ah yeah, great way to over-simplify the fight, LS. Good job.
Sion's body is already beyond clinical death. His body is held together by the Force and by his own will.
He has been through more pain and damage than Anakin could fathom, and Anakin was out of the fight when his arm was lopped off in AotC.
Even if Anakin somehow blitzes Sion and gets in close, Sion can kill him with whatever arm is left over assuming he doesn't just kill him with his saber anyways.
So unless you want to argue that Sion is a human jigsaw puzzle who will easily be knocked into pieces by Anakin "I run headlong into all my lightsaber fights and give in to my rage so I get schooled by anyone who has talent and a level head" Skywalker, stop being guilty of misrepresenting evidence and stacking the deck.
You don't get it- the idea that Sidious, when put in the same room as his two opponents, is suddenly going to say "Hey, that's Nihilus. I should use a high level of Qey'tek so I can be invisible to him" and then implement it in less time than it takes for him to get shocked/thrown/frozen/eaten/cut up/rushed is RIDICULOUS. Accept this finally.
How ridiculous, LS. I expected better of you."OMFG there's no real stack up type proof of Sion using his lightsaber outside of the video game which is the primary media from which he sprang.... OMFG OMFGOGOMFOMGOMFOMFOGM he can't swing his lightsaber fast enough to block attacks from Anakin and Sidious! He just can't!
You have to conclusively prove to me that he's good enough to block and fight as well as any old SW character because I claim he'll be struck down in seconds!!!11 Absence of proof = my argument is unbeatable!!1111
I don't have to prove that Sidious is offensively good enough to defeat other Sith Lords of legendary status using a lightsaber!!!11
He can use all techniques flawlessly, instantly, and without prep!!1111 I am not a fanboy, I swear!!!11111....
Que Escape who will nitpick on stupid little points like the above use of "legendary", or he will argue worthless semantics and ignore any feats of Sidious' opposition because neither of us can sleep properly when our reverence for Sidious is challenged!!!1"
I mean seriously... Both of you are not stupid. And you're not lacking in SW knowledge, but both of you are tiresome when it comes to your rabid defense of this character. It's enough to make debating here at KMC unattractive because every single thread is a potential Sidious-bomb waiting to happen.
I've presented my argument and I'm satisfied with its conclusions. I've provided sources, sound reasoning, and even a coherent breakdown of both sides with why I disagree with your side, what the flaws and major assumptions are, and the overall lack of moderation in your stances.
've never initially claimed that Nihilus and Sion would just bend Sidious over his office table and serve him up, but you seem to think that some liberal NEC hyperbole and your own personal opinions will stretch canon sources and showings enough for him to be better than any other Sith Lord who is lacking in showings.
You know, because all the other Sith Lords should have an equal chance at airtime and source material which references their abilities.
Anyways, I'm done with this crap. You can go ahead and reply if it makes you feel better, but you and Escape are ruining these forums with your ridiculous favoritism and refusal to see Sdious as anything but fallible and mortal.
At the very least I have the grace to admit when points I've made were premature, not well researched, or plain wrong; neither of you ever have had such grace concerning Sidious. [/B]
Every time this happens: You ignore any source posted and whine about how we just use one random one plus our opinion, and a host of other things, each as ridiculous as the last. It's really enough. I hadn't posted here in a damn long time, and you're much smarter than this. I'm sorry if I sound pissed off, but I was. you can be 'done' all you like, but don't throw me a heap of insults and sour grapes BS and expect me to not get annoyed
And oh, look, a new sig. You know, in between crying about how persecuted you are here, does it maybe occur to you why I've not had any of these issues with Nai, Faunus or Advent? This is just getting old how willing you are to write off being argued against as some sort of conspiracy.
A while back that could easily have been 'Ancient Sith' rather than Sidious. What would your reaction have been to that?