I rather enjoyed your post. (I know it was two, but it was the 10,000 character limit that forced your to break it in two.)
I would agree that altruism SHOULD be built into the human species. It has and can be shown that altruism does help a species success...but I cannot find any studies so that point can be thrown out of the window if you want to.
Species of higher intelligences seem to exhibit altruistic behaviors, which tells me that altruism may be incidental to higher intelligence. This maybe due to a "evolutionary success mechanism" (bare with me...that's the best way I could think to describe it)
Also, is there a way to describe WHY atheists seem to exhibit better "good" behavior as compared to their theist contemporaries? There has to be an explanation. Is it because they are held to higher standards, subconsciously, by their theist peers or family? Does this then cause them to tote a better calibrated moral compass than their theist peers?
This is off topic...sort of....but have you ever heard an atheist refer to themselves as a "bright"?
Also, in your reference to Hitler using scripture...
He did that as a form of control. Indeed an atheist can compare that to using scripture on a group of young people to keep them from "sinning". Appeal to the masses through something they use as a moral compass and it should work rather well at achieving you goals.(Though that probably wouldn't work as well nowadays.) Historians attribute Hitlers rise to power to his amazing Charisma.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Also, is there a way to describe WHY atheists seem to exhibit better "good" behavior as compared to their theist contemporaries? There has to be an explanation. Is it because they are held to higher standards, subconsciously, by their theist peers or family? Does this then cause them to tote a better calibrated moral compass than their theist peers?This is off topic...sort of....but have you ever heard an atheist refer to themselves as a "bright"?
Also, in your reference to Hitler using scripture...
He did that as a form of control. Indeed an atheist can compare that to using scripture on a group of young people to keep them from "sinning". Appeal to the masses through something they use as a moral compass and it should work rather well at achieving you goals.(Though that probably wouldn't work as well nowadays.) Historians attribute Hitlers rise to power to his amazing Charisma.
Thanks for the comments. I deleted your evolutionary musings, but it's all very reasonable as a template for an explanation of altruism, and similar to my own and Mindship's.
As for the "why" of the data, I offered a possible explanation of my own, but I can't say for certain. When I first converted to atheism, I'll admit that I felt a certain sense of obligation to be even more moral than before, because my shift in philosophical perspective didn't make me feel more inclined to do "evil" things, and I wanted to combat the negative stereotype of atheism. That's only a personal example, though, and still doesn't answer the question. I'd be interested to hear other theories though.
As for Hitler, he and his life are generally worthless as religious anecdote because he was quite clearly just an angry, delusional man with a ton of charisma. To say that any religion (or lack thereof) played a part is silly, to say the least. I only used him to show why the argument from historical figures fails utterly.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
As for the "why" of the data, I offered a possible explanation of my own, but I can't say for certain. When I first converted to atheism, I'll admit that I felt a certain sense of obligation to be even more moral than before, because my shift in philosophical perspective didn't make me feel more inclined to do "evil" things, and I wanted to combat the negative stereotype of atheism. That's only a personal example, though, and still doesn't answer the question. I'd be interested to hear other theories though.
I could be wrong, but most atheists seem to reject the I'm-better-than-you mindset which often accompanies a belief in a deity, more than the deity concept itself (this seems to come later, as the atheist explores his new POV from a more empirical perspective). Consequently, atheists may be more psyched to better model the ethics religionism espouses but does not, itself, abide by.
Originally posted by Mindship
Almost every atheist I've known was not born and raised as an atheist, whereas most theists I know were born and raised as theists (some of whom then became atheists). In other words, atheism does appear to be largely (at least initially) a reaction to theism.I could be wrong, but most atheists seem to reject the I'm-better-than-you mindset which often accompanies a belief in a deity, more than the deity concept itself (this seems to come later, as the atheist explores his new POV from a more empirical perspective). Consequently, atheists may be more psyched to better model the ethics religionism espouses but does not, itself, abide by.
I'd agree except that atheism is a "reaction" to theism. The vast majority of the population is theistic, so of course most atheists will have been brought up in a theistic family or culture. It's just statistical certainty. It also implies a certain spite against the religion as a reason for leaving. An atheist may not be fully intellectually developed as an atheist when they first leave religion, but I'd like to think that leaving theism is for intellectual reasons moreso than anti-religious sentiment (though that could be what initially sparked it), at least the majority of the time.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
I'd agree except that atheism is a "reaction" to theism. The vast majority of the population is theistic, so of course most atheists will have been brought up in a theistic family or culture. It's just statistical certainty. It also implies a certain spite against the religion as a reason for leaving. An atheist may not be fully intellectually developed as an atheist when they first leave religion, but I'd like to think that leaving theism is for intellectual reasons moreso than anti-religious sentiment (though that could be what initially sparked it), at least the majority of the time.
Of course it's a reaction. The rest of your post after the first sentance explains how.
Originally posted by ushomefree
DigiMark007-Without a doubt, Christian members--as well as other religious group members--have claimed that atheists are immoral; but such claims are totally absurd. Not all religious persons--including myself--share this view. Do not stereotype. Atheists can live (and have lived) moral lives, at least, as best as humanly possible. The same applies to Christian members (or other religious group members). But the Christian is saved.
Originally posted by Symmetric ChaosI suspect it may be more like this: the more any religion devolves into religionism (when theists take on that Me>You / MGIBTYG mindset) the more likely it is to inspire atheism because hypocrisy becomes very apparent.
Perhaps that's a result of the religion one is exposed to.
Originally posted by Tim Rout
I agree. From a biblical perspective, morality is intrinsic to the human conscience, which is itself a product of the divine image. Since God's character defines morality, and all human beings (including atheists) are made in God's image, we share a transcendent sense of right and wrong. Cultural variations can therefore be attributed to the fallen condition of humanity.
All social beings have morals. Animals living in groups have morals. Morals are helping a social group survive.
I'm pretty sure I've already posted this but meh.
http://www.slate.com/id/2162998/pagenum/all/
Damage to the prefrontal cortex increases utilitarian moral judgements.
Koenigs et al., Nature 446, 908-911 (19 April 2007) for those who are interested.
Re: Re: Why Are Atheists Moral
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
The question "Where do Atheists get their morals?" is asked a lot, and I think the answer to that is that it depends on the culture and society they were raised in. America is 70-something percent Christian, and until pretty recently that figure was in the 90's. So as a result, a lot of laws are based on Christianity. So the American Atheist would agree with the American Christian largely that murder, theft, and adultery are wrong. Now the Atheist didn't just come up with all that on his own, he/she was raised among religious people, maybe had religious parents, learned laws that have a base in religion, so all this rubs off onto the person and believe it or not, effects them. So the only real difference between an American Atheist and his American Christian neighbor is that the Athiest has let go of his belief in god, but still klings to the all the godly morals.A perfect example: my son has a Saudi friend at college who's a closet Atheist to his family and other Saudis. But he still fanatically avoids pork because it was ingrained into him as child that the animal's meat is bad. Its no different than an American Atheist having an aversion to killing another person.
You make a convincing point, but it's very generalized and not entirely true for every person.
You don't need religion to have morality. You really don't. It's in your own best interest to treat other people with respect and peace. Simply to avoid conflict...do not hurt others, and chances are they will not hurt you back. In fact, they may even help you when you need it.
I don't need the fear of hell or reward of heaven to understand that hurting someone is wrong, or that the consequences for doing such a thing may be more than I, or anyone else, can handle.
****************************************************************
However, I do agree that no matter what, if one grew up with religious influence, there will always be a part of that teaching with you. However, not all of it will stay:
-I do not go to Church, and where I once felt routinely guilty about it, I no longer give if an afterthough.
-I've had repeated sex before marriage, and quite honestly, I don't think I want to get married anyway. Umm...not to mention, I'm a homo...I thnk that kinda disagrees with the Bible a bit...does it stop me though ? Nope ❌
-I don't stone prostitutes, I don't cut off people's tongues for lying, I don't gauge out my own eyeball for having lustful thoughts, etc.
I am sure there are tons of rules in the Bible that I break every fkn day. So despite the minor influence it may have on my behavior or morality, most of what I have been taught has been quite easily disregarded.
Same goes for most people who turn away from Christianity or any religious base. You underestimate the power of choice, and the will of one individual.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I'm pretty sure I've already posted this but meh.
http://www.slate.com/id/2162998/pagenum/all/Damage to the prefrontal cortex increases utilitarian moral judgements.
Koenigs et al., Nature 446, 908-911 (19 April 2007) for those who are interested.
had you seen this?
Originally posted by lord xyzAs another atheist, and on behalf of others atheists, I'd like to say, don't speak for us mother****er.
As an atheist, and on behalf of other atheists, I'd like to say that we get our morals from observation. We see something, see it's effect, then decide whether we should do it or not. Gore for example looks gruesome to most, murder creates gore, therefore, don't murder to not see gore.
Originally posted by lord xyz
As an atheist, and on behalf of other atheists, I'd like to say that we get our morals from observation. We see something, see it's effect, then decide whether we should do it or not. Gore for example looks gruesome to most, murder creates gore, therefore, don't murder to not see gore.
Al Gore?
You maybe right. 😆