There was a pretty interesting discussion going on here, so just my two cents- I believe the clones, despite being constructed and intended to be emotionless killing machine, in fact developed a personality and an attachment to their Jedi commanders.
This is notably seen in three instances; Obi-Wan's 'buddy'-styled relationship with Commander Cody. If Cody did not have human emotions, he wouldn't have joked around with Obi-Wan- orders, however, came before that for Cody. In Felucia, meanwhile, the Clones grew a deep respect and admiration for Aayla Secura, due to her feats on the battlefield, which involve saving the Clones' asses plenty of times. Perhaps the best example is seen in the beginning of Rise of Darth Vader, where a group of clones- due to their attachment to the Jedi commanders- refuse to carry out the orders, and let the Jedi escape.
Clearly, these Clones have developed a personality beyond their creator's original plans.
I doubt it's beyond the plans. Palpy need Clones to be better than mindless droids. So Clones needs personality to use creativity in battle, thus having an advantage over preprogrammed droids. It's not surprising a personality comes into play, but I doubt it's something that grows beyond the purpose they were made for.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
There was a pretty interesting discussion going on here, so just my two cents- I believe the clones, despite being constructed and intended to be emotionless killing machine, in fact developed a personality and an attachment to their Jedi commanders.This is notably seen in three instances; Obi-Wan's 'buddy'-styled relationship with Commander Cody. If Cody did not have human emotions, he wouldn't have joked around with Obi-Wan- orders, however, came before that for Cody. In Felucia, meanwhile, the Clones grew a deep respect and admiration for Aayla Secura, due to her feats on the battlefield, which involve saving the Clones' asses plenty of times. Perhaps the best example is seen in the beginning of Rise of Darth Vader, where a group of clones- due to their attachment to the Jedi commanders- refuse to carry out the orders, and let the Jedi escape.
Clearly, these Clones have developed a personality beyond their creator's original plans.
Judging by the comments made by the show's writers about this very issue, I am happy to concede that this is so.
That said, they DO all turn bad in the end, so theyt are still not fully developed sentient beings in the way we would recognise it; free will is essential to such a term. Cody turned bad with all of them.
I feel this statement by the film overrides what Rise of Darth Vader says. It was simply not possible for even the Jedi to prevent betrayal by their friends amongst the Clones. If Obi-Wan and Yoda could not, no-one could.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Judging by the comments made by the show's writers about this very issue, I am happy to concede that this is so.That said, they DO all turn bad in the end, so theyt are still not fully developed sentient beings in the way we would recognise it; free will is essential to such a term. Cody turned bad with all of them.
I feel this statement by the film overrides what Rise of Darth Vader says. It was simply not possible for even the Jedi to prevent betrayal by their friends amongst the Clones. If Obi-Wan and Yoda could not, no-one could.
They have developed a range of emotions beyond what they were 'supposed' to possess, but nevertheless, the fundamental core of the Clone Troopers is follow-orders-at-all-costs. Meaning, even if they developed an attachment to someone, orders from the Supreme Commander still come first.
They aren't entirely human, but they aren't emotionless machines, either.
The thing is, it wasn't even 'orders come first'. There was no sign of regret or remorse from Cody, nothing in the line of "I hate to do this but ordersd are orders" (which is immoral enough a creed as it is). No, he went straight at it, just as enthusiastically as he had been fighting alongside him moments before.
Horrifying in many ways, and I think it goes beyond an inbuilt subservience. It's a moral void.
Finally...
Originally posted by Alliance
AS you so often damn well remind us, this IS an EU forum. So, even if you think my opinon is EU, its perfectable acceptable here. I do not think my opionion is EU, but if you're maintinaing that position, you should begin to act accordingly.I have a brain. I can think beyond what is presented. Myabe you have problems doing this, but since all you're doing is the exact same thing I am, I see no reason to entertain your ideas.
You are now my favorite person...
Originally posted by Alliance
AS you so often damn well remind us, this IS an EU forum. So, even if you think my opinon is EU, its perfectable acceptable here. I do not think my opionion is EU, but if you're maintinaing that position, you should begin to act accordingly.I have a brain. I can think beyond what is presented. Myabe you have problems doing this, but since all you're doing is the exact same thing I am, I see no reason to entertain your ideas.
✅
Originally posted by Ushgarak
#Except he was wrong. Please go check the canon rules; sources from the films override all else.
But there is no true film source on that subject. But I guess for fools who can't see meaning behind what is actually said... *shrugs*
That's manifestly untrue- you should read things properly. Alliance was trying to override things said on film with his own opinion, saying blanket things like that the lines by the Kaminoans about the troopers were lies, because these canon facts did not suit him.
The film facts here are actually clear. To support Alliance's position is contrary tp canon and thus folly.
It is canon that the Clones were made the way they were.
It is canon about how Cody acted with order 66 even after a long relationship with Obi-Wan.
In fact it is clear that with ALL the major Jedi who had had years to build up such relationships, their commanders cold-bloodedly ordered or caused their deaths without pause for thought or reason.
All facts for those with the wit to see them. Now, don't be like Alliance and constrcut you own contrary view and then try to selectively ignore canon to make it work for gim. That doesn't swing. Hence his attitude in this thread is an extremely bad one to find laudable.
There's plenty of room for debate about the Clones, but Alliance's pretention to his nonsense being intelligent thought was just whitewash. There is nothing smart or deeper-looking about simply ignoring presented facts to suit your own view. That's all he did.
Again, the canon rules here are clear. Your opinion does not trump what the films say, and that is what Alliance was trying to do and what you are trying to support.