Originally posted by Tangible God
Yeah...no.
Yeah...yes.
Obviously not in Force power, but in terms of fighting skill and swordsmanship I'd say Maul is considerably better than Sidious.
Is Sidious a dangerous opponent in combat? Absolutely, but that's mostly due to his power in the Force, not his sabre skill.
It seems to me that people often seem to underestimate Maul.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Yeah...yes.Obviously not in Force power, but in terms of fighting skill and swordsmanship I'd say Maul is considerably better than Sidious.
Is Sidious a dangerous opponent in combat? Absolutely, but that's mostly due to his power in the Force, not his sabre skill.
It seems to me that people often seem to underestimate Maul.
... dude, NO.
SIDIOUS is considerably better than Maul in terms of lightsaber combat- this is displayed by how Sidious was capable- before the time period of TPM, completely outclass Maul in terms of lightsaber combat. Maul was capable of causing Sidious to temporarily fight for his life, but that was only due to him being surprised. And he subsequently disarmed Maul with a TRAINING saber- and that's not even beginning to speak of the complete awe that Maul had about Sidious' fighting skill.
Also, later on, Sidious was capable, at the points of RotS- despite being 'rusty'- WTFpwn three of the order's finest swordsman within the space of 10 seconds, effortlessly. Meanwhile, when Maul faced a similar adversary- Qui-Gon Jinn- it took him a certain while to defeat Qui-Gon. Subsequently, Maul was put on his ass by an enraged Padawan (albeit a talented one).
That's not even mentioning that Sidious could stalemate Yoda in lightsaber combat- while Yoda was confirmed to be the most powerful Jedi up to that point in the RotS novel.
While I seriously doubt Sidious would WTFpwn Maul in lightsaber combat, Maul is slower, less masterful, less experienced... the list goes on. The only advantage Maul has is his vastly superior physical conditioning, which is somewhat negated by Sidious' far superior mastery of the force.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
... dude, NO.SIDIOUS is considerably better than Maul in terms of lightsaber combat- this is displayed by how Sidious was capable- before the time period of TPM, completely outclass Maul in terms of lightsaber combat. Maul was capable of causing Sidious to temporarily fight for his life, but that was only due to him being surprised. And he subsequently disarmed Maul with a [B]TRAINING
saber- and that's not even beginning to speak of the complete awe that Maul had about Sidious' fighting skill.Also, later on, Sidious was capable, at the points of RotS- despite being 'rusty'- WTFpwn three of the order's finest swordsman within the space of 10 seconds, effortlessly. Meanwhile, when Maul faced a similar adversary- Qui-Gon Jinn- it took him a certain while to defeat Qui-Gon. Subsequently, Maul was put on his ass by an enraged Padawan (albeit a talented one).
That's not even mentioning that Sidious could stalemate Yoda in lightsaber combat- while Yoda was confirmed to be the most powerful Jedi up to that point in the RotS novel.
While I seriously doubt Sidious would WTFpwn Maul in lightsaber combat, Maul is slower, less masterful, less experienced... the list goes on. The only advantage Maul has is his vastly superior physical conditioning, which is somewhat negated by Sidious' far superior mastery of the force. [/B]
In that 'training sabre' incident, Maul could barely stand up. He had spent months on a remote planet being pursued by assasin droids, was exhausted and had a major wound that had become infected. Hardly the peak of his strength.
Besides, as you yourself point out, that was before the time period of TPM- meaning Maul would have improved after that.
Sidious beat those Council members due to his Force-powered speed, not his sword skills. While he did do well against Yoda in sabre combat, it wasn't a stalemate. Yoda pretty much had the upper hand throughout the sabre part of the fight- notice how he wins three sabrelocks. He realised that he couldn't win a swordfight against Yoda so did the smart thing and switched to ranged combat by hurling those pods at him.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
In that 'training sabre' incident, Maul could barely stand up. He had spent months on a remote planet being pursued by assasin droids, was exhausted and had a major wound that had become infected. Hardly the peak of his strength.
Elaborate one WHAT wound, exactly.
And note that Sith Lords- unlike Jedi- actually feed off the pain inflicted upon them in order to enhance their power. To quote from the RotS novel (this is regarding Sidious):
"Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified.
He fed the power with his pain."
Pain is a common way to allow the Sith to enhance their abilities- combine rage with that, and it's actually close to being the ideal conditions for a Sith to increase their power.
And, you also have the fact that Sidious never wanted to kill Maul, yet he still disarmed him with a friggin' training saber, causing Maul to realize percisely how outclassed he was.
Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Besides, as you yourself point out, that was before the time period of TPM- meaning Maul would have improved after that.
The same would apply to Sidious. While you have the fact that Sidious' technical skills with a lightsaber are likely to have decreased between the point of TPM and RotS, his speed and force-enhanced attributes would only logically improve, due to him extensively training his force mastery during his term as Chancellor.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Sidious beat those Council members due to his Force-powered speed, not his sword skills. While he did do well against Yoda in sabre combat, it wasn't a stalemate. Yoda pretty much had the upper hand throughout the sabre part of the fight- notice how he wins three sabrelocks. He realised that he couldn't win a swordfight against Yoda so did the smart thing and switched to ranged combat by hurling those pods at him.
... don't give me that bullshit. Those Council Members were called some of the greatest swordsman in the history of the Jedi Order, were combat-savvy and extensively trained. Seeing as a considerable part of being a swordsman is attunement to the force, I see no reason why the Council Members would be particularly lacking in the force department. While it's obivious that Sidious' insane speed came into play, so did his unpredictable swordsmanship. A person with no skill whatsoever cannot dispatch a superb swordsman through speed alone.
Contrary to common opinion, the duel with Yoda was a stalemate. It's true that Yoda certainly broke all the saberlocks- but if that was something to decide who is superior in swordsmanship, Vader would be the greatest swordsman in history. For example, despite the fact that Obi-Wan had the upperhand and was clearly outclassing Grievous in their fight, Grievous still broke the saberlock. Plus, Yoda's short blade would give him leverage.
Aside from that, you have the fact that Sidious was on the offensive for the majority of the fight, and Yoda's style- Ataru- is an extremely offensive style, alreading displaying Sidious' skills. While I'm hardly saying Sidious > Yoda in lightsabers, Yoda couldn't defeat Sidious, either- the same would also apply to Sidious, of course. However, Yoda's offensive force skills are severly lacking in the sense that he is a lightside and doesn't have access to the same arsenal of offensive powers as Sidious does- his best chance to kill Sidious was with a lightsaber. That's why HE didn't jump away.
Another fact is that Sidious was confirmed by Nick Gillard to be a superior swordsman to RotS Obi-Wan, who- 13 years previously- displayed the ability to knock Maul on his ass while pissed off, and Maul could only win the saber duel with him via a force push. Of course, regular TPM Obi-Wan isn't as good as Maul, but he's fairly close- his next incarnation, 13 years later, with the supreme mastery of Soresu is bound to surpass Maul. And Sidious is beyond him.
There is absolutely no reason to believe why Maul could- I repeat- take out a faster, more experienced, more skillful, and smarter fighter.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Elaborate one WHAT wound, exactly.
Sorry, can't remember. I have to admit that I'm going off of memory here.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
And note that Sith Lords- unlike Jedi- actually feed off the pain inflicted upon them in order to enhance their power. To quote from the RotS novel (this is regarding Sidious):"Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified.
He fed the power with his pain."
Pain is a common way to allow the Sith to enhance their abilities- combine rage with that, and it's actually close to being the ideal conditions for a Sith to increase their power.
And, you also have the fact that Sidious never wanted to kill Maul, yet he still disarmed him with a friggin' training saber, causing Maul to realize percisely how outclassed he was.
Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified.
True, but you're talking about a brief burst of pain in the heat of battle, not a prolonged injury. A Sith with, for example, multiple serious wounds will still require medical treatment. Over time they will start to weaken. They can draw on the Force for power, but only so much.
Maul (as I remember, I could be mistaken) had a serious infection and a deep wound that he'd had for some time. Sith aren't Immortal; there's a limit on how long they can sustain themselves with the Force.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
The same would apply to Sidious. While you have the fact that Sidious' technical skills with a lightsaber are likely to have decreased between the point of TPM and RotS, his speed and force-enhanced attributes would only logically improve, due to him extensively training his force mastery during his term as Chancellor.
Precisely. That's my entire point. Sidious is a danger in combat primarily due to his Force-powers, not his technical skill with a blade. You just said exactly that.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
... don't give me that bullshit. Those Council Members were called some of the greatest swordsman in the history of the Jedi Order, were combat-savvy and extensively trained. Seeing as a considerable part of being a swordsman is attunement to the force, I see no reason why the Council Members would be particularly lacking in the force department. While it's obivious that Sidious' insane speed came into play, so did his unpredictable swordsmanship. A person with no skill whatsoever cannot dispatch a superb swordsman through speed alone.
No need for foul language. And who the heck said ANYTHING about "no skill whatsoever."
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Contrary to common opinion, the duel with Yoda [B]was a stalemate. It's true that Yoda certainly broke all the saberlocks- but if that was something to decide who is superior in swordsmanship, Vader would be the greatest swordsman in history. For example, despite the fact that Obi-Wan had the upperhand and was clearly outclassing Grievous in their fight, Grievous still broke the saberlock. Plus, Yoda's short blade would give him leverage.Aside from that, you have the fact that Sidious was on the offensive for the majority of the fight, and Yoda's style- Ataru- is an extremely offensive style, alreading displaying Sidious' skills. While I'm hardly saying Sidious > Yoda in lightsabers, Yoda couldn't defeat Sidious, either- the same would also apply to Sidious, of course. However, Yoda's offensive force skills are severly lacking in the sense that he is a lightside and doesn't have access to the same arsenal of offensive powers as Sidious does- his best chance to kill Sidious was with a lightsaber. That's why HE didn't jump away.[/B]
Okay, I'll grant that one.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Another fact is that Sidious was confirmed by Nick Gillard to be a superior swordsman to RotS Obi-Wan, who- 13 years previously- displayed the ability to knock Maul on his ass while pissed off, and Maul could only win the saber duel with him via a force push. Of course, regular TPM Obi-Wan isn't as good as Maul, but he's fairly close- his next incarnation, 13 years later, with the supreme mastery of Soresu is bound to surpass Maul. And Sidious is beyond him.
No offence to Mr. Gillard, but was he referring to 'pure' sword skill, or was he including factors such as Force powers, speed etc.
If it's the former, then okay, fair enough.
Plus, if Maul had survived, his skills would have increased over those 13 years as well.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
There is absolutely no reason to believe why Maul could- I repeat- take out a faster, more experienced, more skillful, and smarter fighter.
Put the two of them in a fight where neither can use the Force, and who do you think would win?
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Sorry, can't remember. I have to admit that I'm going off of memory here.
No problem ^^. But until you can prove it, we're going to have to ignore that point.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
True, but you're talking about a brief burst of pain in the heat of battle, not a prolonged injury. A Sith with, for example, multiple serious wounds will still require medical treatment. Over time they will start to weaken. They can draw on the Force for power, but only so much.Maul (as I remember, I could be mistaken) had a serious infection and a deep wound that he'd had for some time. Sith aren't Immortal; there's a limit on how long they can sustain themselves with the Force.
Unfortunately, you misunderstand the fact that they didn't use the force to get over the pain; rather, they used to pain to better unleash their power.
Even a normal human being can use pain to empower oneself- of course, there's a certain amount of pain one can take before losing their power, but until you can prove the fact that Maul was injured to the point that he could barely even move, the fact of the matter is that pain could merely be used to feed a Sith Lord's power. A pained, enraged Maul is significantly more dangerous than a calm, regular state Maul.
An animal is most dangerous when it's wounded. You should know that.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Precisely. That's my entire point. Sidious is a danger in combat primarily due to his Force-powers, not his technical skill with a blade. You just said exactly that.
I -think- you misunderstand the concept of swordfighting in Star Wars.
I'll give you the perfect example; Dooku was miles ahead of Anakin in terms of technical prowess, but, nevertheless, Anakin owned him in a lightsaber duel. This is due to vastly superior physical strength, raw power, and stamina (Anakin is confirmed to get only more powerful as a fight continues)- as you can see, even a person of inferior technical skill can defeat a person of more technical skill.
Now you have Sidious, who is confirmed to be a "Master of every weapon and every form", and had considerably more time to refine himself than Maul (even if we exclude his 13 years of 'rustiness', he still had roughly 50 years to develop himself while Maul had... what? 15, 20 years?), and who vastly surpasses Maul in terms of force mastery. Force mastery, in close-combat, will allow one to reach incredible speeds, strength, and reflexes- and that's just as important as one's technical skill in dueling, if not more so.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
No need for foul language. And who the heck said ANYTHING about "no skill whatsoever."
I don't consider bullshit 'foul language' ^^. It's my way of speaking- I didn't mean to offend you in any sort of way. 'No skill whatsoever' is an exaggerration, as you stated that Sidious defeated the Jedi masters exclusively due to his speed, and I said that there is at least some technical skill behind it.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Okay, I'll grant that one.
Thank you.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
No offence to Mr. Gillard, but was he referring to 'pure' sword skill, or was he including factors such as Force powers, speed etc.If it's the former, then okay, fair enough.
Plus, if Maul had survived, his skills would have increased over those 13 years as well.
'Pure' swordsmanship is only one aspect of swordfighting, as I had proven above, and so I believe that he i referring to overall swordsmanship, which is a combination of technical skill and attunement ot the force (giving the force-enhanced attributes). Sidious is certainly not lacking in the technical aspect of swordsmanship, but I doubt Maul is far behind him- Sidious is 'Teh shit' in swordsmanship because of his almost unparalleled attunement to the force and dark side mastery, backed up by his considerable technical skill.
Speaking out of memory, wasn't it stated somewhat that Maul reached his peak? Other than that, yes, he would've obiviously increased in power. But could he surpass Sidious? Hardly. Seeing as Sidious would have also increased his force attributes, force mastery, and clearly has more raw power than Maul.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Put the two of them in a fight where neither can use the Force, and who do you think would win?
Neither can use the force? In the sense than force-enhanced speed and such skills aren't allowed? Maul would likely win, because Sidious is- without the force- an old man with a considerable degree of technical skill with a sword. However, such a fight is unfair and isn't like the Star Wars duels.
Oh, and for the purpose of this thread, either one of Bane's incarnations would defeat Maul in all three areas of combat, but in terms of saber skills, I'm sure Maul would give him a difficult time.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
No problem ^^. But until you can prove it, we're going to have to ignore that point.
Fair enough.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Unfortunately, you misunderstand the fact that they didn't use the force to get over the pain; rather, they used to pain to better unleash their power.Even a normal human being can use pain to empower oneself- of course, there's a certain amount of pain one can take before losing their power, but until you can prove the fact that Maul was injured to the point that he could barely even move, the fact of the matter is that pain could merely be used to feed a Sith Lord's power. A pained, enraged Maul is significantly more dangerous than a calm, regular state Maul.
An animal is most dangerous when it's wounded. You should know that.
Ah, I see. Good point about the 'wounded animal' metaphor. I am quite sure that at one point Maul did state that he could barely stand (it was told from his POV). Sidious goaded him about this, claiming to have trained another apprentice who had completed the same test and sustained only a flesh wound. But I agree that it's best not to use this without proof.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I -think- you misunderstand the concept of swordfighting in Star Wars.I'll give you the perfect example; Dooku was miles ahead of Anakin in terms of technical prowess, but, nevertheless, Anakin owned him in a lightsaber duel. This is due to vastly superior physical strength, raw power, and stamina (Anakin is confirmed to get only more powerful as a fight continues)- as you can see, even a person of inferior technical skill can defeat a person of more technical skill.
Now you have Sidious, who is confirmed to be a "Master of every weapon and every form", and had considerably more time to refine himself than Maul (even if we exclude his 13 years of 'rustiness', he still had roughly 50 years to develop himself while Maul had... what? 15, 20 years?), and who [B]vastly
surpasses Maul in terms of force mastery. Force mastery, in close-combat, will allow one to reach incredible speeds, strength, and reflexes- and that's just as important as one's technical skill in dueling, if not more so.[/B]
I realise that. It's just that when I compare characters I try to look at their abilities separately. That is I try to determine if their edge comes from Force power, skill, experience etc, in order to determine exactly WHY they'd win in a battle. In your example Anakin won, not because he was better with a sabre, but because he was more powerful physically and with the Force.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I don't consider bullshit 'foul language' ^^. It's my way of speaking- I didn't mean to offend you in any sort of way. 'No skill whatsoever' is an exaggerration, as you stated that Sidious defeated the Jedi masters exclusively due to his speed, and I said that there is at least some technical skill behind it.
No worries, I understand that's just the way some people speak. I didn't mean to imply that Sidious killed those Masters purely through speed, (sorry if it sounded that way), just that his speed was the main factor.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Thank you.
You're welcome.
'
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Pure' swordsmanship is only one aspect of swordfighting, as I had proven above, and so I believe that he i referring to overall swordsmanship, which is a combination of technical skill and attunement ot the force (giving the force-enhanced attributes). Sidious is certainly not lacking in the technical aspect of swordsmanship, but I doubt Maul is far behind him- Sidious is 'Teh shit' in swordsmanship because of his almost unparalleled attunement to the force and dark side mastery, backed up by his considerable technical skill.Speaking out of memory, wasn't it stated somewhat that Maul reached his peak? Other than that, yes, he would've obiviously increased in power. But could he surpass Sidious? Hardly. Seeing as Sidious would have also increased his force attributes, force mastery, and clearly has more raw power than Maul.
In the TPM novel, Maul is described as 'a warrior at his peak,' as opposed to Qui-Gon, who is highly skilled but past his physical prime, and Obi-Wan who is physically more vital, but relatively lacking in combat experience (he is described as 'not battle-hardened'😉. Maul would have still improved with time though, simply due to having more experience, even if his technique was perfected.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Neither can use the force? In the sense than force-enhanced speed and such skills aren't allowed? Maul would likely win, because Sidious is- without the force- an old man with a considerable degree of technical skill with a sword. However, such a fight is unfair and isn't like the Star Wars duels.Oh, and for the purpose of this thread, either one of Bane's incarnations would defeat Maul in all three areas of combat, but in terms of saber skills, I'm sure Maul would give him a difficult time.
On reflection that was a pretty bad example. As I say, I just meant to look at sword skill without the variable of Force ability. Although you could just as easily say that in such a situation Maul would have the advantage of being a younger, fitter and physically stronger man, so that doesn't work either.
I will admit that you're right about Sidious's sabre ability in relation to his apprentice. I still feel that Maul is under-rated a lot of the time though.
On-topic, I have to admit Bane most likely wins. Besides his much stronger Force-power, he has a good knowledge of how 'sabrestaffs' are used. Plus, he can channel his anger and power even better than usual by thinking "you remind me of Sirak." I agree that Maul will put up a good fight though.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Fair enough.Ah, I see. Good point about the 'wounded animal' metaphor. I am quite sure that at one point Maul did state that he could barely stand (it was told from his POV). Sidious goaded him about this, claiming to have trained another apprentice who had completed the same test and sustained only a flesh wound. But I agree that it's best not to use this without proof.
I realise that. It's just that when I compare characters I try to look at their abilities separately. That is I try to determine if their edge comes from Force power, skill, experience etc, in order to determine exactly WHY they'd win in a battle. In your example Anakin won, not because he was better with a sabre, but because he was more powerful physically and with the Force.
No worries, I understand that's just the way some people speak. I didn't mean to imply that Sidious killed those Masters purely through speed, (sorry if it sounded that way), just that his speed was the main factor.
You're welcome.
'
In the TPM novel, Maul is described as 'a warrior at his peak,' as opposed to Qui-Gon, who is highly skilled but past his physical prime, and Obi-Wan who is physically more vital, but relatively lacking in combat experience (he is described as 'not battle-hardened'😉. Maul would have still improved with time though, simply due to having more experience, even if his technique was perfected.
On reflection that was a pretty bad example. As I say, I just meant to look at sword skill without the variable of Force ability. Although you could just as easily say that in such a situation Maul would have the advantage of being a younger, fitter and physically stronger man, so that doesn't work either.
I will admit that you're right about Sidious's sabre ability in relation to his apprentice. I still feel that Maul is under-rated a lot of the time though.
On-topic, I have to admit Bane most likely wins. Besides his much stronger Force-power, he has a good knowledge of how 'sabrestaffs' are used. Plus, he can channel his anger and power even better than usual by thinking "you remind me of Sirak." I agree that Maul will put up a good fight though.
🙂
I don't think Maul is exactly underestimated, in the sense that there are plenty of people on this site who find him to be hugely skilled- while I personally don't exactly think he's quite on the level of the PT's top tier, he comes very close, and is a highly prodigious lightsaber duelist.