Aboard the IIdeathstar we place vader against ulic qel droma

Ah! The old Kun argument. What did Exar Kun do prior to his anti-climatic battle with Ulic to make you think he's anywhere above Vader (pre or post suit)?

How about destroy two strong jedi knights and his master in quick time, obliterate a giant taranterek with his amulet, enslave a species etc.

Lightsabers: Vader has faced tougher odds and better fighters than Ulic.

You lie.
Quantify and substantiate.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
How about destroy two strong jedi knights and his master in quick time, obliterate a giant taranterek with his amulet, enslave a species etc.

Two strong Jedi nowhere near the calibre of Ulic let alone Dooku, Obi Wan nor anywhere near as dangerous as Durge or Asajj Ventress. As I said, even before Vader turned into a cyborg he was a far more distinguished force user than the Kun Ulic faced.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
You lie.
Quantify and substantiate.

Obi Wan Kenobi. Count Dooku. Durge. Do these names ring a bell? Not to mention a coterie of some at least six Jedi he faced off against at one time and survived, in fact he killed most of them.

In the rise of Darth Vader we know that his armor limited his vision, restrained his movement, and caused extreme frustration for Vader (in the early years at least), but he would eventually retool his entire fighting style to make up for the lack of mobility that his armor imposed.

Just one thing Exodus, the taranterek was created by Exar Kun, you are referring to the sith wyrm.

Two strong Jedi nowhere near the calibre of Ulic let alone Dooku, Obi Wan nor anywhere near as dangerous as Durge or Asajj Ventress.

Mabye not but Anakin didn't have to fight any of these directly after one another. And then he went on to beat his master, who knew all his moves, really easily. He wasn't even breating hard by the end either.

Obi Wan Kenobi. Count Dooku. Durge. Do these names ring a bell?

Anakin beat those not Vader. And Exar Kun was far superior to all of those bar Dooku whom he merely surpasses.

Not to mention a coterie of some at least six Jedi he faced off against at one time and survived, in fact he killed most of them.

Those Jedi were shit. One of them actually got slain by a teammate. And the others made the frankly idiotic mistake at coming at him one at a time. And despite this, Vader still lost something like both arms as well as other wounds.

In the rise of Darth Vader we know that his armor limited his vision, restrained his movement, and caused extreme frustration for Vader (in the early years at least), but he would eventually retool his entire fighting style to make up for the lack of mobility that his armor imposed.

LOL, yeah he did great letting a complete ametuer like Luke hit him and cut off one of his arms once. Plus he only managing to stalemate the withered, not-practised-in-15-years Obi-wan and got beat by Boba Fett. Yaeh, he rocks!!! 😄

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Mabye not but Anakin didn't have to fight any of these directly after one another. And then he went on to beat his master, who knew all his moves, really easily. He wasn't even breating hard by the end either.

Point is no one Kun fought was on the level of Dooku or Obi Wan. Hell before Ulic he hadn't fought anyone on the level of Asajj Ventress.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Anakin beat those not Vader. And Exar Kun was far superior to all of those bar Dooku whom he merely surpasses.

Great rebuttal?

I'm hoping that I don't need to tell you that Anakin Sky Walker is Darth Vader. The only difference is Anakin is more mobile, but less patient, less wise, less experienced, less powerful in the dark side.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Those Jedi were shit. One of them actually got slain by a teammate. And the others made the frankly idiotic mistake at coming at him one at a time. And despite this, Vader still lost something like both arms as well as other wounds.

Let's not get carried away. 6+ Jedi all gunning for you at the same time are greater odds than facing one Ulic Qel Droma. And unlike the masters in ROTS with Sidious, these guys were actually taken out in a manner that made sense, naturally Vader would get damaged.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
LOL, yeah he did great letting a complete ametuer like Luke hit him and cut off one of his arms once. Plus he only managing to stalemate the withered, not-practised-in-15-years Obi-wan and got beat by Boba Fett. Yaeh, he rocks!!! 😄

Conveniently forgetting that Vader's resolve in the dark side had been dissolved gradually for years and that he would never kill his son. That he never fully embraced the dark side (at least not to the extent of Sidious) because of how disappointed he was in himself and that Luke's presence made him uncertain in his convictions on top of all the self loathing.

When Vader fought Luke in ROTJ he was spiritually weak; he was there for the taking.

We're talking about Ulic here, Vader wouldn't give a shit about Ulic's life and that would spell destruction for Qel Droma.

think about it. your unneccessary fanboyism towards maul who's only great feats include: whiping out black sun, (seriously, killing a few roomfulls of some skilled non force users is supposed to be amaizing?); and causing an excellent jedi master to think that committing suicide was the safest way to defeat maul.

AND VADER KILLED HIM!!!
This is vader who took out cin drallig, count dooku, mace windu, and the emperor!

from the comic book i read: ulic took out mandalore, (no great feat), got betrayed and captured on coruscaunt, escaped, plundered a dying planet, got stripped of the force by a noob, and then got killed by a jedi on hoth.

Compare the feats. if you=nooblet fanboy; keep arguing for Qel Droma.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
think about it. your unneccessary fanboyism towards maul who's only great feats include: whiping out black sun, (seriously, killing a few roomfulls of some skilled non force users is supposed to be amaizing?); and causing an excellent jedi master to think that committing suicide was the safest way to defeat maul.

Yeah. Maul sucks.

AND VADER KILLED HIM!!!

And why, exactly, are you even bringing up Maul?

This is vader who took out cin drallig, count dooku, mace windu, and the emperor!

from the comic book i read: ulic took out mandalore, (no great feat),

Mandalore was the single greatest warrior alive in the SW equivalent of Spartan society. Basically, one of the deadliest men in the galaxy. Against Ulic - starting out with a basilisk war droid while Ulic has to run around several hundred feet above the ground on a network of chains - he still lost, and miserably. To call this unimpressive is stupid.

got betrayed and captured on coruscaunt,

got stripped of the force by a noob,

and then got killed by a jedi on hoth.

Compare the feats. if you=nooblet fanboy; keep arguing for Qel Droma.

Originally posted by Faunus
Kicking the shit out of Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at once? Outclassing the most skilled duelist in the Jedi Order? Nearly managing to kill Sidious when he got ticked off?

Yeah. Maul sucks.
OH MY GOD!1!

Not that I agree with his stance, but you're hardly the person to be telling him this.

my point with this was proving that VAder had killed more ULTRA beings in quantity then ulic, not that ulic was a weakling.

like i said, ulic is a talented jedi with a sad story.
Vader is a child generated through the force with more midichlorions then the most powerful jedi.

Originally posted by Faunus

Mandalore was the single greatest warrior alive in the SW equivalent of Spartan society. Basically, one of the deadliest men in the galaxy. Against Ulic - starting out with a basilisk war droid while Ulic has to run around several hundred feet above the ground on a network of chains - he still lost, and miserably. To call this unimpressive is stupid.

You're kidding right? He was on basilisk but how is that impressive? Mandalore is a non force sensitive. Basically a soldier with martial skills, defeating him isn't a big feat especially for a force sensitive with any kind of talent.

And as far as being one of the most deadly mean in the galaxy?... Sure if you've got martial skills, use grenades, high powered projectile weapons and have access to soldiers and vehicles, you're dangerous however, in a one-on-one duel you're nothing compared to a force user the calibre of Asajj Ventress, Obi Wan, Maul and Dooku.

Hell, Asajj Ventress was destroying mobs of big, fast, skillful and dangerous mercenaries on her own.

sorry, did i forget ventress on the list of vader accomplishments?

Originally posted by Allankles
Point is no one Kun fought was on the level of Dooku or Obi Wan. Hell before Ulic he hadn't fought anyone on the level of Asajj Ventress.

Sure thing, if you don't consider century old lightsaber instructors on the level of Asajj Ventress, one of which Exar was capable of competing with when he was a padawan.

Vodo, by that knowledge alone, would logically be at the very least a match for Dooku, let alone Obi-Wan, and Exar, as a padawan, and before gaining his power amplifying Sith amulets and studying Sith Magic, was already able to compete with him, and as I mentioned, Ulic didn't just stalemate him, he did it with an injured body. All this before being branded with Sith tattoos, and skyrocketing in power to the point where he was described as “rippling in dark side energies.”

Then there’s also the fact that when Anakin actually defeated Dooku, Dooku had been instructed to test him, forbidden to mortally harm him, and was working under the knowledge that if Anakin somehow got into a position to kill him, that Palpatine would stop the fight, as explained here:

"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41

In other words, he spent part of the fight testing Anakin’s capabilities rather than trying to actually defeat him, wasn’t fighting with the absolute need of self preservation, and when he actually did fight to win, he was still limiting his options by not going for the kill, and aiming only to disarm or minorly wound.

If he were to have been aiming to kill, fighting for his life, and not have wasted any of his efforts on testing Anakin’s capabilities, and then Anakin defeated him, then the feat would likely be as impressive as you’re trying to make it out to be, but unfortunately for you, Anakin only managed to defeat him under special circumstances that thoroughly undermines its value.

Great rebuttal?

I'm hoping that I don't need to tell you that Anakin Sky Walker is Darth Vader.

For all intents and purposes, he's not.

The only difference is Anakin is more mobile, but less patient, less wise, less experienced, less powerful in the dark side.

He's far more mobile, possesses a far greater connection to the Force, and far better accustomed to combat, via the Clone Wars. From a combat standpoint, they're nothing alike, ergo, you can't use PT Anakin's displays of ability as support for Vader’s level of combat prowess by blindly speculating on how closely they both compare. You’re honouring by association like a moron.

Let's not get carried away. 6+ Jedi all gunning for you at the same time are greater odds than facing one Ulic Qel Droma.

Because you say so? Ulic, both with the Force and lightsaber, has displayed a level of ability that far surpasses the average Jedi, such as knocking two talented Jedi back dozens of feet even before going through a major power transformation where he was seen to be rippling in dark side energies, as well as stalemating a darkside driven and extremely capable Jedi whilst physically past his prime, cut off from the Force, and a decade out of practise. You may find it hard to believe that a single Force User could succeed where multiple others failed, but the fact of the matter is, Ulic isn't just your average Jedi, and has displayed a level of ability that places him a good few notches above the norm. It’s not unheard of for multiple Jedi to be defeated by a single exceptional being. Grievous was able to take out similar numbers of Jedi that Vader did, and unlike him, completely dominated, and wasn’t once harmed. Darth Bane was capable of matching three Jedi of the millennium long Jedi and Sith War, two of them being some of the more powerful Masters of the time, whilst they were having their asses boosted by powerful, concentrated Battle Meditation. Sidious himself slaughtered three powerful Jedi Masters in seconds.

But even then, the fight, in all honesty, proves little.

You had Jedi (with no proven skills, might I add) turning on each other midway through the battle, running at Vader with their lightsabers held high like morons, showing no signs that they were acting as a cohesive Force, and even then, Vader was literally getting his ass kicked throughout the fight, receiving multiple hits, and could have actually been defeated twice during the battle, the first time when he was down and one of the Jedi prevented another from landing a finishing blow, and the second time right at the end of the fight, when the few remaining Jedi had him finished, and the arrival of his troopers saved his ass.

And unlike the masters in ROTS with Sidious, these guys were actually taken out in a manner that made sense, naturally Vader would get damaged.

Naturally? If Vader really was the titan you’re trying to make him out to be, he would have been able to perform similarly to the above mentioned beings, and not have been basically kicked all over the place by a relatively unimpressive group of Jedi. And unlike the Masters in RotS with Sidious, they have literally no proven skills, whereas the Masters that Sidious slaughtered were some of the most powerful Jedi of the Order.

Conveniently forgetting that Vader's resolve in the dark side had been dissolved gradually for years and that he would never kill his son. That he never fully embraced the dark side (at least not to the extent of Sidious) because of how disappointed he was in himself and that Luke's presence made him uncertain in his convictions on top of all the self loathing.

When Vader fought Luke in ROTJ he was spiritually weak; he was there for the taking.

We're talking about Ulic here, Vader wouldn't give a shit about Ulic's life and that would spell destruction for Qel Droma.

Last time I checked, Exodus didn’t say anything to the contrary. His point, irregardless of how badly Vader had been holding back, was that he was still using all of his ability to defend himself, and yet was still incapable of adequately doing so in the situation in question against the extremely poorly trained and unimpressive Luke Skywalker, who, at the time, was attacking him with absolutely no finesse whatsoever.

Originally posted by ??????????????
Sure thing, if you don't consider century old lightsaber instructors on the level of Asajj Ventress, one of which Exar was capable of competing with when he was a padawan.

Vodo, by that knowledge alone, would logically be at the very least a match for Dooku, let alone Obi-Wan, and Exar, as a padawan, and before gaining his power amplifying Sith amulets and studying Sith Magic, was already able to compete with him, and as I mentioned, Ulic didn't just stalemate him, he did it with an injured body. All this before being branded with Sith tattoos, and skyrocketing in power to the point where he was described as “rippling in dark side energies.”

Then there’s also the fact that when Anakin actually defeated Dooku, Dooku had been instructed to test him, forbidden to mortally harm him, and was working under the knowledge that if Anakin somehow got into a position to kill him, that Palpatine would stop the fight, as explained here:

"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. [b]If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41

In other words, he spent part of the fight testing Anakin’s capabilities rather than trying to actually defeat him, wasn’t fighting with the absolute need of self preservation, and when he actually did fight to win, he was still limiting his options by not going for the kill, and aiming only to disarm or minorly wound.

If he were to have been aiming to kill, fighting for his life, and not have wasted any of his efforts on testing Anakin’s capabilities, and then Anakin defeated him, then the feat would likely be as impressive as you’re trying to make it out to be, but unfortunately for you, Anakin only managed to defeat him under special circumstances that thoroughly undermines its value.

For all intents and purposes, he's not.

He's far more mobile, possesses a far greater connection to the Force, and far better accustomed to combat, via the Clone Wars. From a combat standpoint, they're nothing alike, ergo, you can't use PT Anakin's displays of ability as support for Vader’s level of combat prowess by blindly speculating on how closely they both compare. You’re honouring by association like a moron.

Because you say so? Ulic, both with the Force and lightsaber, has displayed a level of ability that far surpasses the average Jedi, such as knocking two talented Jedi back dozens of feet even before going through a major power transformation where he was seen to be rippling in dark side energies, as well as stalemating a darkside driven and extremely capable Jedi whilst physically past his prime, cut off from the Force, and a decade out of practise. You may find it hard to believe that a single Force User could succeed where multiple others failed, but the fact of the matter is, Ulic isn't just your average Jedi, and has displayed a level of ability that places him a good few notches above the norm. It’s not unheard of for multiple Jedi to be defeated by a single exceptional being. Grievous was able to take out similar numbers of Jedi that Vader did, and unlike him, completely dominated, and wasn’t once harmed. Darth Bane was capable of matching three Jedi of the millennium long Jedi and Sith War, two of them being some of the more powerful Masters of the time, whilst they were having their asses boosted by powerful, concentrated Battle Meditation. Sidious himself slaughtered three powerful Jedi Masters in seconds.

But even then, the fight, in all honesty, proves little.

You had Jedi (with no proven skills, might I add) turning on each other midway through the battle, running at Vader with their lightsabers held high like morons, showing no signs that they were acting as a cohesive Force, and even then, Vader was literally getting his ass kicked throughout the fight, receiving multiple hits, and could have actually been defeated twice during the battle, the first time when he was down and one of the Jedi prevented another from landing a finishing blow, and the second time right at the end of the fight, when the few remaining Jedi had him finished, and the arrival of his troopers saved his ass.

Naturally? If Vader really was the titan you’re trying to make him out to be, he would have been able to perform similarly to the above mentioned beings, and not have been basically kicked all over the place by a relatively unimpressive group of Jedi. And unlike the Masters in RotS with Sidious, they have literally no proven skills, whereas the Masters that Sidious slaughtered were some of the most powerful Jedi of the Order.

Last time I checked, Exodus didn’t say anything to the contrary. His point, irregardless of how badly Vader had been holding back, was that he was still using all of his ability to defend himself, and yet was still incapable of adequately doing so in the situation in question against the extremely poorly trained and unimpressive Luke Skywalker, who, at the time, was attacking him with absolutely no finesse whatsoever. [/B]

substantiate she is one of the most talented. Alot of people make the OMG MOST TALENTED CUT!! Ulic is probably one of them.

She was stated to be able to wield a lightsaber with the prowess of a Master the very first time she picked one up, was capable of applying Battle Meditation in ways never again replicated without any training (manipulating two giant dark side beasts into killing each other by simply visualising it), and was capable of completely and permanently stripping a Force User's powers away from them, when she had only originally been trained in temporarily suppressing a Force Sensitive's powers.

Originally posted by ??????????????

Seriously, I'm with Saxy on this one Nebaris, you're full of bs. To even compare Vodo to Dooku, what did he ever do to give the impression he was on Dooku's level?

Hell, I wouldn't say he was Asajj Ventress' level. A wise Jedi Master with a stick instead of a lightsaber. Sure he might have been knowledgeable in the force but his combat abilities are not impressive.

Originally posted by ??????????????
She was stated to be able to wield a lightsaber with the prowess of a Master the very first time she picked one up, was capable of applying Battle Meditation in ways never again replicated without any training (manipulating two giant dark side beasts into killing each other by simply visualising it), and was capable of completely and permanently stripping a Force User's powers away from them, when she had only originally been trained in temporarily suppressing a Force Sensitive's powers.

Nomi was talented but being talented is a given. There are plenty of talented Jedi in the mythos, several more talented than Nomi.

Originally posted by ??????????????
Sure thing, if you don't consider century old lightsaber instructors on the level of Asajj Ventress, one of which Exar was capable of competing with when he was a padawan.

Asajj would have defeated Vodo. She has shown herself to be far more impressive.

Originally posted by ??????????????
He's far more mobile, possesses a far greater connection to the Force, and far better accustomed to combat, via the Clone Wars.
rom a combat standpoint, they're nothing alike, ergo, you can't use PT Anakin's displays of ability as support for Vader’s level of combat prowess by blindly speculating on how closely they both compare. You’re honouring by association like a moron.

Ignoring canon facts makes you look like a moron. First of all Vader's strength in the dark side increased and his skill in the force grew as well. He didn't remain stagnant in his abilities nor did he detiriorate, he only never tapped into his FULL potential. Secondly, he became more cunning, more patient, more wise i.e. he learned from his mistakes as Anakin and eliminated some his character weaknesses. On top of all this he retooled his fighting techniques to compensate for his large, heavy cyborg frame.

Adding all this, we see capable of defeating Maul in a straight saber duel as well as noted Jedi like the Dark Lady, in fact the suit forced him to be more cunning in his fighting style. Also, we who are rational choose to remember that Vader still had his combat skills, he only added to those skills with a greater knowledge of the dark side, practice with old and new skills and of course experience. We know that he practiced his lightsaber combat religiously.

Originally posted by ??????????????
His point, irregardless of how badly Vader had been holding back, was that he was still using all of his ability to defend himself, and yet was still incapable of adequately doing so in the situation in question against the extremely poorly trained and unimpressive Luke Skywalker, who, at the time, was attacking him with absolutely no finesse whatsoever.

So Vader is incapable of getting surprised? It's pretty much in the canon that Vader got caught off guard, keeping in mind that he wasn't about to unleash the full repertoire of his abilities, getting disarmed was inevitable. All Vader does is keep his defense up against an enraged Skywalker. There are a several things Vader could have done to stop Luke, looking at this in hindsight of Vader's abilities in the EU, but he didn't do anything. Of course, Luke being his son complicated things for Vader.

Originally posted by ??????????????

You had Jedi (with no proven skills, might I add) turning on each other midway through the battle, showing no signs that they were acting as a cohesive Force, and even then, Vader was literally getting his ass kicked throughout the fight, receiving multiple hits, and could have actually been defeated twice during the battle,

This is ridiculous, he faces off against multiple Jedi and gets wounded? omg what a travesty!!!! That's what's supposed to happen when you face multiple Jedi, that's why I said Palpatine's encounter with the Jedi - by contrast - was a farce, from a story telling perspective as well as the basic physics of the whole thing. You're up against 4 supposedly gifted Jedi Masters and none can land a strike on you?

It reflects poorly on the Jedi's skill level more than anything else, given what we actually saw happen. Palpatine wasn't doing anything we haven't seen other Jedi/Sith do. I wasn't comparing Palpatine's feat to Vader's though, all I'm saying is the simple facts: fighting multiple Jedi is greater odds than fighting one Ulic Qel Droma.

heck, sure nomi was talented, im not saying she wasn't, i wasnt saying she was extremely gifted, its just, getting cut off from the force by her isnt exactly the stuff of gods, or the stuff it would take to kill vader.