Originally posted by tauros
Why do you think Qui-gonn was past his prime? To me, he seemed to be IN his prime. A good age, not yet slow, but he had had time to learn much.And umm.. Maul WON the saber lock. Obi-wan was pushed back first by Maul overpowering him in the saber lock, and THEN he pushed Obi with the force. See for yourself: http://youtube.com/watch?v=bPLXwrj7i7Q&feature=related
4:05
getting exhausted and sweating after 1 minute of dueling maul on tatooine
of course qui gon was past his prime,
Maul
getting his lighsaber cut in half and getting kicked down, not only that but in the saber lock obi wan managed to almost press maul against the wall, i say kenobi won the saber lock.
Prove me he wouldn't have gotten exhausted "in his prime" then?
How did Kenobi win the saber lock when Maul got out of it by quickly overpowering Kenobi? Obi-wan was SLOWLY pressing the sabers against Maul, but then Maul took them away from him in an instant(clearly showing that he won it) and then pushed Obi.
Originally posted by tauros
Prove me he wouldn't have gotten exhausted "in his prime" then?How did Kenobi win the saber lock when Maul got out of it by quickly overpowering Kenobi? Obi-wan was SLOWLY pressing the sabers against Maul, but then Maul took them away from him in an instant(clearly showing that he won it) and then pushed Obi.
MOC has been anti Maul as long as I can remember. Need I remind you all that people the likes of Anoon Bondara who's saber skill was described as "second to none" in the entire jedi order prior (including Yoda) to tpm was not able to beat Maul in battle.
Obiwan said this on page 29 of the jedi vs sith guide:
When the last door lifted, I gave into my anger as I charged the dark warrior. I absolutely wanted to destroy him. He used my anger against me,actually fed off my fury,gaining strength as I exhausted my own. I lost my lightsaber and he had me......
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
MOC has been anti Maul as long as I can remember. Need I remind you all that people the likes of Anoon Bondara who's saber skill was described as "second to none" in the entire jedi order prior (including Yoda) to tpm was not able to beat Maul in battle.Obiwan said this on page 29 of the jedi vs sith guide:
When the last door lifted, I gave into my anger as I charged the dark warrior. I absolutely wanted to destroy him. He used my anger against me,actually fed off my fury,gaining strength as I exhausted my own. I lost my lightsaber and he had me......
its not that i hate maul, its just that his existence alone is a great source of displeasure for me and that his death made me very happy.
so back to the duel. i am doing my best to be objective so i will give points of credit and criticisms to both duelists.
mauls credits:
mastered juyo
stood up to both duelists for about 5 minutes
put obi wan in a put
obi wan's credits:
sliced mauls saber in half
made maul desperate enough to resort to a force push
killed maul
resourceful enough to use qui gon's blade in a duel with maul
Mauls criticisms:
couldnt beat both duelists at once so needed to separate them
back up the whole duel (why not press the attack)
taunting
got back handed by qui gon and fell a few stories down
obi wan criticisms:
didnt force push back
didnt strike fast enough,
and didnt battle meditate to save qui gon
So just because Maul was -smart- it makes him weak?
"made maul desperate enough to resort to a force push"
Maul saw an opportunity, and he used it. How is that being desperate?
"couldnt beat both duelists at once so needed to separate them"
Firstly, again just a smart thing to do. Why take a risk? And even if he couldn't, how is that a criticism? Obi wan and Qui-Gon are both great fighters.
"taunting"
?
"back up the whole duel (why not press the attack)"
Umm..?
Originally posted by Man of Christ
to use qui gon's blade in a duel with maulMauls criticisms:
couldnt beat both duelists at once so needed to separate them
back up the whole duel
He was at one point controlling the duel when it was 2 vs 1. As the narrator says in TPM says:
The Jedi Knights tried continually to press the attack, and indeed, the Sith Lord was moving away from the Naboo and the starfighters and back toward the hangar's far wall. But Qui-Gon recognized that while it might seem as if the Jedi were driving him before them, it was the Sith Lord who was controlling the struggle. Wheeling and spinning, leaping and somersaulting with astonishing ease, their enemy was taking them with him, drawing them on to a place of his own choosing. His agility and dexterity allowed him to keep them both at bay, constantly attacking while at the same time effectively blunting their counterattacks, relentlessly searching for an opening in their defense.
Trying to find the opening in the defense and separate his 2 opponents is the smart thing to do, it increase the chance of victory considerably.
made maul desperate enough to resort to a force push
Did you not notice my previous post?
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Obiwan said this on page 29 of the jedi vs sith guide:When the last door lifted, I gave into my anger as I charged the dark warrior. I absolutely wanted to destroy him. He used my anger against me,actually fed off my fury,gaining strength as I exhausted my own. I lost my lightsaber and he had me......
Furthermore as I already pointed out numerous times in different threads that the hole potentially saved him. Had he just been pushed with the force he would be unarmed as he lost his lightsaber prior to falling into the hole. And thus would have no time to calm down and think about retrieving his fallen master's weapon.
and didnt battle meditate to save qui gon
Originally posted by Man of Christ
getting exhausted and sweating after 1 minute of dueling maul on tatooine
of course qui gon was past his prime,
Originally Posted by Borbarad
On the other Handside we have Darth Maul. A "perfect Sith weapon" (DSSB), who's overall combat skills (force mastery and lightsaber skills) were not only enough to deal with two rather talented Jedi at once. No. He was also skilled enough to kill a guy who's lightsaber skill was "second to none" in the Jedi Order and another Jedi Master that has been on par with TPM Mace Windu in terms of overall duelling ability. That aside from almost killing Darth Sidious, who only barely managed to survive the fury of his own apprentice – in a situation where Maul lacked food and sleep for an month and was already badly injured.
To top it off, The Ultimate Visual Guide says that Maul is 'one of the deadliest Sith apprentices in history'. And idk if Jinn was in his prime of not, but remember, he was also running through the desert for who knows how long before that, while Maul was zipping around on his Sith Speeder.
Originally posted by tauros
So just because Maul was -smart- it makes him weak?"made maul desperate enough to resort to a force push"
Maul saw an opportunity, and he used it. How is that being desperate?
"couldnt beat both duelists at once so needed to separate them"
Firstly, again just a smart thing to do. Why take a risk? And even if he couldn't, how is that a criticism? Obi wan and Qui-Gon are both great fighters."taunting"
?"back up the whole duel (why not press the attack)"
Umm..?
heres why it is desperation for maul to use a force push in a duel.
his lightsaber form known as juyo focues on offensive physical strength and less on force powers being used offensively in a duel.
a quote from the wookiepedia article on juyo
"However, Darth Maul only devoted to the Form's physical focus, thus he remained silent during the duels on Tatooine and Naboo. Maul desired pure physical victory, rather than the "higher" Sith tradition of Dun Möch, which could dominate the opponent's spirit through taunts that expose inner doubts and weaknesses."
he had to resort to a force push because obi wan had matched/beat him in his specialty which was strict blade to blade contact. we see this when obi wan cuts his blade in half
Originally posted by darthsith19
To top it off, The Ultimate Visual Guide says that Maul is 'one of the deadliest Sith apprentices in history'. And idk if Jinn was in his prime of not, but remember, he was also running through the desert for who knows how long before that, while Maul was zipping around on his Sith Speeder.
again do you have an omniscient source holding qui gon as second to none or is that another jedi's OPINION?
Originally posted by Man of Christ
heres why it is desperation for maul to use a force push in a duel.his lightsaber form known as juyo focues on offensive physical strength and less on force powers being used offensively in a duel.
a quote from the wookiepedia article on juyo
"However, Darth Maul only devoted to the Form's physical focus, thus he remained silent during the duels on Tatooine and Naboo. Maul desired pure physical victory, rather than the "higher" Sith tradition of Dun Möch, which could dominate the opponent's spirit through taunts that expose inner doubts and weaknesses."
he had to resort to a force push because obi wan had matched/beat him in his specialty which was strict blade to blade contact. we see this when obi wan cuts his blade in half
No. It was an opportunity and he took it, not weakness. Maul could still continue fighting AT LEAST evenly with Obi-wan after his saber got cut in half.
Originally posted by Man of Christ
well you said he fought evenly UNTIL.......... so how could he have won?
MOC are you purposely ignoring my posts? But then again Obiwan's own opinion of the fight destroys your argument.
And the quote of Anoon Bondara being second to none is coming from the narrator and if I'm not mistaking is in two books.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
MOC are you purposely ignoring my posts? But then again Obiwan's own opinion of the fight destroys your argument.And the quote of Anoon Bondara being second to none is coming from the narrator and if I'm not mistaking is in two books.
1) you stated correctly that its obi wan's OPINION not neccesarily fact, so it doesnt destroy my argument. look at the video yoiull see what i mean
2)show me a text where he is second to none because that would mean he is better than yoda who was the greatest enemy darkness had ever known
Originally posted by Man of Christ
1) you stated correctly that its obi wan's OPINION not neccesarily fact, so it doesnt destroy my argument. look at the video yoiull see what i mean
Try for the fact that he was actively participating in the duel IN THE DUEL and it is very LOGICAL to say that he knows what is happening to his body in the fact that he was losing strength and he can determine what is happening to Maul since he is dueling him. And on the video you can't see someone's thoughts so you have no proof once again and you can't disprove Obiwan's comments on how he feels on the inside.
2)show me a text where he is second to none because that would mean he is better than yoda who was the greatest enemy darkness had ever known
Both are from Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter.
At least she was not standing there alone. Behind her and slightly to one side was her mentor, Anoon Bondara. Master Bondara epitomized what Darsha hoped to become one day. The Twi'lek Jedi Master lived in the Force. Always still and complacent as a pool of unknown depth, he was nevertheless one of the best fighters in the order. His skill with a lightsaber was second to none Darsha hoped that one day she might be able to exhibit a tenth of Anoon Bondara's adeptness.
Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council
And this is from Cloak of Deception
A Twi'lek, with slender head-tails and a heavily muscled upper body, his name was Anoon Bondara, a duelist of unparalleled skill. Qui-Gon engaged him in matches at every opportunity. For a match with Bondara, no matter how brief, was more instructive than twenty contests against lesser opponents.The lightsaber Master stopped in front of a female human student named Darsha Assant, who happened also to be his Padawan. Bondara squatted down on his haunches to regard her at eye level.
How many times has this been brought up and refuted. Yoda is second to none on the council and Anoon is second to none in the order. And just because Anoon is better swordsman prior to TPM does not mean he has the force strength to over come Yoda which I doubt he has even then prior to his death. Anoon would beat Yoda in a strict sabers contest at this time but lose in the force and all out probably. And by no means do these statement contradict the ROTS statement.