The path of science leads to killing?

Started by DigiMark0076 pages

What Pitt and X said. Apparently he comments on what good points you guys make when you're the one saying that his argument is BS, but when I say it I get attacked. Lucky me.

Also lulz at saying "he copy/pastes" as an excuse to ignore X's comments. That's pretty much all ushome ever does. And an argument should stand or fall on its merits (or lack thereof), not on its source.

Also, double lulz at rearranging ID to say it doesn't attempt to account for life ("attempt" being the key word). If it makes no claims, it's not a theory. Speaking against evolution isn't a theory ushome. It, well, that's the only way to say it. It isn't. And if it does attempt to explain life, it has no evidence. Catch-22 there.

And as for his selective memory and repeated claims that I don't address his points, he's apparently forgotten the tomes I used write in response to his threads (all of which were the same things he's still saying). I stopped at some point because I realized the futility...which is only reinforced when his ignorance of any earlier debates leads me to believe he never paid attention to my arguments in the first place.

If you can't remember my responses, that's your problem ushome....not my responsibility to re-type every time you go MIA then reappear when it's safe to assume the previous argument has been forgotten.

So why don't you get to the point, Digi?

Originally posted by ushomefree
So why don't you get to the point, Digi?
😕 I think his point is quite clear since he has posted it over and over as well as many others.

Da Pittman-

Intelligent Design focuses on the complexity of life and documents all within. Have people expounded on such? Absolutely! But, "origin," is not something ID attempts to explain or credit. All ID does is note that biological organisms, down to the simple cell, appear to be "designed!" A cell is more complex, more cunning, and more intricate than any man-machine. Right?! In addition, ID also presents examples of biological organisms--the cell too--that cannot be accounted for by Darwinian processes. It is that simple. I went out of my way to post a message on this thread to relay a little insight--the eye and how Darwinian evolution fails to explain such biological systems. Could Darwinian evolution have the answer in time? Absolutely! Science is not written in stone; but at this moment in time, evolution only accounts for micro processes, not macro processes. You disagree with that?

That's a flat out lie.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Da Pittman-

Intelligent Design focuses on the complexity of life and documents all within. Have people expounded on such? Absolutely! But, "origin," is not something ID attempts to explain or credit. All ID does is note that biological organisms, down to the simple cell, appear to be "designed!" A cell is more complex, more cunning, and more intricate than any man-machine. Right?! In addition, ID also presents examples of biological organisms--the cell too--that cannot be accounted for by Darwinian processes. It is that simple. I went out of my way to post a message on this thread to relay a little insight--the eye and how Darwinian evolution fails to explain such biological systems. Could Darwinian evolution have the answer in time? Absolutely! Science is not written in stone; but at this moment in time, evolution only accounts for micro processes, not macro processes. You disagree with that?

I’m not an authority on micro or macro evolution so that I can not say however you are still incorrect that ID does give a theory to the origin of life and that is through God or a creator. This is their theory and the reason that they “do not attempt” to explain it is because they say that it can’t because they are not the creator of God. Their only way to “try” and prove their theory is by trying to disprove all others for their flawed logic is that if they prove all others wrong then theirs has to be right. Darwin’s theory is not and has never claimed to be the be-all and end-all to the answer to life; it is a theory just like everything else. I think it is held in higher regard and a lofted position in more of the religious community then in the non-religious community.

That you say that Darwin’s theory could in time explain and be ratified to explain all stages of life from micro to macro is encouraging which would mean that you are open to the possibility that your theory of ID could be wrong as I (can’t speak of all) and open to the idea that mine may as well be.

Originally posted by Devil King
That's a flat out lie.

Either you are the one lying here, or else you do not know your biology.
Let me simplify this for you:
There are structures that exist in nature (for example the organelles of a cell) that would have no survival benefit independent from each other (in the cell example, a ribosome would give no advantage to survival without a nucleus to provide codons in mRNA). So, these structures should not exist through the processes of natural selection. But yet they do.
Why?
And that is where Intelligent Design comes in;
these highly complex structures (which have the appearance of being designed like man-made machines!) were, in fact, intelligently designed, thusly explaining both the generation and complexity of certain structures.

Originally posted by Transfinitum
Either you are the one lying here, or else you do not know your biology.
Let me simplify this for you:
There are structures that exist in nature (for example the organelles of a cell) that would have no survival benefit independent from each other (in the cell example, a ribosome would give no advantage to survival without a nucleus to provide codons in mRNA). So, these structures [B] should not exist
through the processes of natural selection. But yet they do.
Why?
And that is where Intelligent Design comes in;
these highly complex structures (which have the appearance of being designed like man-made machines!) were, in fact, intelligently designed, thusly explaining both the generation and complexity of certain structures. [/B]
The process of natural selection doesn’t mean that it makes the “perfect” creature only that it evolves to better adapt to its environment. Even things that we have considered to be “Useless” have been found out later to server a vital purpose after more study, this can go both ways to the argument. Here is one that claims that there are no “useless organs” so that would prove intelligent design which would be in contrary to your point.

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/evolutions_useless_organ_argument

Originally posted by Da Pittman
The process of natural selection doesn’t mean that it makes the “perfect” creature only that it evolves to better adapt to its environment. Even things that we have considered to be “Useless” have been found out later to server a vital purpose after more study, this can go both ways to the argument. Here is one that claims that there are no “useless organs” so that would prove intelligent design which would be in contrary to your point.

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/evolutions_useless_organ_argument


It is not that there are "useless organs", but rather co-dependent structures (in my example organelles in cells, not organs) that do not serve a purpose without another structure in conjunction. In my example, ribosomes make proteins by chaining long strands of amino acids; but without the instructions for making the proteins (mRNA sent out by the nucleus) they are useless for they cannot assemble proteins and therefore provide no evolutionary advantage.

Abiogenesis and evolution are two separate but related fields of science.

RNA world hypothesis.

Originally posted by Transfinitum
It is not that there are "useless organs", but rather co-dependent structures (in my example organelles in cells, not organs) that do not serve a purpose without another structure in conjunction. In my example, ribosomes make proteins by chaining long strands of amino acids; but without the instructions for making the proteins (mRNA sent out by the nucleus) they are useless for they cannot assemble proteins and therefore provide no evolutionary advantage.
So you are saying that if something provides no “evolutionary” advantage then it is proof that evolution is false? Do you deny that species do adapt and become better suited to their environment?

Originally posted by Transfinitum
Either you are the one lying here, or else you do not know your biology.
Let me simplify this for you:
There are structures that exist in nature (for example the organelles of a cell) that would have no survival benefit independent from each other (in the cell example, a ribosome would give no advantage to survival without a nucleus to provide codons in mRNA). So, these structures [B] should not exist
through the processes of natural selection. But yet they do.
Why?
And that is where Intelligent Design comes in;
these highly complex structures (which have the appearance of being designed like man-made machines!) were, in fact, intelligently designed, thusly explaining both the generation and complexity of certain structures. [/B]

Based on these claims, perhaps it is yourself that does not understand. ID and creationism feel the need to justify the legitimacy and purpose of biologial factors. Clean lines and specific purpose are the side effects of creationism, not evolution. Evolution is a messy and illogical process. ID is not.

Originally posted by Transfinitum

And that is where Intelligent Design comes in;
these highly complex structures (which have the appearance of being designed like man-made machines!) were, in fact, intelligently designed, thusly explaining both the generation and complexity of certain structures.

Too bad that's not an acceptable answer.

How does this resemble a man-made machine?

Translation: the only reason you say it looks like a man-made machine is because it looks like a man-made machine... wait for it... wait for it... to you!

Not to mention, there are notable differences between eukaryotic ribosomes, and mitochondrial/prokaryotic ribosomes, primarily concerning eukaryotic ribosomes being more specialized and larger. Is it any surprise that more complex ribosomes are found in more complex cells as opposed to the simpler cells that came first?

Not to mention the observed self-assembly of such things as rna fragments, proteins, protobionts, etc etc in simulated early earth environments is also a pretty good indication that something may have happened.

Furthermore not to mention, lack of absolute proof of something does not automatically mean that the other side is correct, which is why ID completely fails on a scientific basis. It sits on the premise that lack of evidence from one view proves that the other view is right, without it actually having provide it's own evidence to support it.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Abiogenesis and evolution are two separate but related fields of science.

RNA world hypothesis.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
What Bardock said. We're not limited to 2 options in this case. Such dualistic thinking actually would lead us to believe ID (even without evidence) if evolution was ever disproven (as yet unaccomplished). But setting it up as such is a needless duality.

So sure, disprove one thing and the other is true, only if there is only 2 possible interpretations. There isn't in this case, nor has anything been disproven, so ID is lacking on both fronts. It's a niggling point that honestly should be implied when dealing with scientific theories.

I even know what the axiom of such a case is called. "tertium non datur"

Yeah, look at me, packin' da latin.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Why won't you watch it? Are you just simply not interested in the debate/topic?

I'm open to debate, but this film is nothing more than a money making scheme. ...straight up propaganda.

Originally posted by AngryManatee
How does this resemble a man-made machine?

Because it is a Graphical Interface Format (GIF) and man made 😛

Sorry couldn't resist 😄

Originally posted by AngryManatee
Not to mention, there are notable differences between eukaryotic ribosomes, and mitochondrial/prokaryotic ribosomes, primarily concerning eukaryotic ribosomes being more specialized and larger. Is it any surprise that more complex ribosomes are found in more complex cells as opposed to the simpler cells that came first?

>> But you forget a very important detail here:
Even though it is true that there were simpler ribosomes in simpler cells; we have NEVER found a ribosome that can make proteins without specific codon from mRNA, which is ONLY found in the nucleus. Now you mention that ribosomes existed in prokaryotic cells, the question we set out to answer is why.
Darwinian evolution provides no answer, for all the structures we see today were mutations that increased survival and were passed onwards.
Ribosomes in prokaryotic cells provided no advantage.
So we must take this observation and create hypotheses to try to solve it (scientific method); and one of these hypotheses is Intelligent Design, which introduces a "blueprint" so to speak, into the evolutionary process.

Not to mention the observed self-assembly of such things as rna fragments, proteins, protobionts, etc etc in simulated early earth environments is also a pretty good indication that something may have happened.

>>Ah, you are talking about Urey-Miller, the oft-spun experiment on abiogenesis. One problem with that experiment as empirical evidence for abiogenesis is that it DID NOT MAKE LIFE , in fact all it created were organic substances such as protiens. And because I know your next retort, "for them to assemble it would take millions and billions of years", let me provide you with a fact:

A thermodynamic analysis of a mixture of protein and amino acids in an ocean containing a 1 molar solution of each amino acid (100,000,000 times higher concentration than we inferred to be present in the prebiological ocean) indicates the concentration of a protein containing just 100 peptide bonds (101 amino acids) at equilibrium would be 10-338 molar. Just to make this number meaningful, our universe may have a volume somewhere in the neighborhood of 1085 liters. At 10-338 molar, we would need an ocean with a volume equal to 10229 universes (100, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000) just to find a single molecule of any protein with 100 peptide bonds.

http://origins.swau.edu/papers/life/chadwick/default.html pg 3

Furthermore not to mention, lack of absolute proof of something does not automatically mean that the other side is correct, which is why ID completely fails on a scientific basis. It sits on the premise that lack of evidence from one view proves that the other view is right, without it actually having provide it's own evidence to support it.

I'm sorry, that's not an acceptable answer,
Intelligent Design looks at flaws in the Darwinian theory (observations) and creates reasoned hypotheses based upon those flaws. Intelligent Design is not as much its own theory as it is a supplement to the ailing problems of Darwinism. It takes most of the Darwinian theory and supplements a few hypotheses to explain such things as irreducible complexity, probability, and the inability of Natural Selection to explain observed phenomenon in the natural world. It looks at observations and makes hypotheses, much like (dare I say it) the Scientific Method !

Originally posted by Transfinitum
I'm sorry, that's not an acceptable answer,
Intelligent Design looks at flaws in the Darwinian theory (observations) and creates reasoned hypotheses based upon those flaws. Intelligent Design is not as much its own theory as it is a supplement to the ailing problems of Darwinism. It takes most of the Darwinian theory and supplements a few hypotheses to explain such things as irreducible complexity, probability, and the inability of Natural Selection to explain observed phenomenon in the natural world. It looks at observations and makes hypotheses, much like (dare I say it) the [B] Scientific Method
! [/B]
Just because it “may” have one part of the scientific method doesn’t mean that it is a scientific method.

What observed phenomenon can natural selection not explain? Because your posts show that you really just don't understand what evolution is...you seem to understand how creationists misconstrue it, but can't actually identify it's actual causes.

The argument from probability is old and tired, and also debunked. Natural selection isn't blind probability, but selection...and built up from the smallest order into infinitely gradual complexity. It keeps the good and eliminates the bad...the process supports itself. So the extravagant probabilities and Hoyle-esque arguments of claiming that hundreds of things would need to come together all at once are patently false. Only 1 tiny thing would need to happen. Then one more tiny thing, and so on for hundreds of millions of years....except as the "one more things" keep happening, the number of places for a new "one more thing" increase exponentially. So once you have, say, a bond between 2 proteins....it becomes not only possible but likely that some form of life will occur.

So lulz at the "FACT" as you called it. I've seen similar analyses from various times and the number grows with each decade to try to make it seem even more outrageous. All it does is show an inability to comprehend how natural selection actually works.

I could counter irreducable complexity with ID's inability to account for suboptimal design in nearly any organism. So I will. But now I'll also clarify that most cases of irreducable complexity are just ID'ists not looking long enough or thinking hard enough. You stop when it seems like a problem and declare God the winner. That's not how science works.

Famous "problems" like the eyeball have since been researched and reconciled with scientific data (turns out, part of an eyeball, even tiny amounts, is useful). Also generally ignored is the co-evolution of both species and specific gene clusters in organisms, which is likely how most of the "problems" came to be. Imagine lions who hunt gazelles...the fast lions get food, thus surviving, but the fastest gazelles survive and thus procreate, so only the even faster lions survive and become more numerous, then the fastest among that breed and so forth. Increments. Now imagine a complex joint where all of maybe 6 hinges are needed to move in a specific way. A crude example, but it will suffice. The first hinge is bred accidentally and no positive or negative benefit. Then a second is mutated, and it allows incredibly basic movement which may o may not have benefit. Remember, neutral mutations will continue to survive so any of it would need to be a negative in order to ensure extinction of that mutations. After a few million years the creature might have basic movement, which aids in food gathering (or any mundane survival task). Co-evolving in increments. Then one can easily imagine a species-level co-evolution like the lion/gazelle scenario to push such a joint to even greater fruition over millions of years.

So please, try reading something that isn't tinged with religious bias, because it's clear you're only familiar with one side of the argument.

....

Also, same question as for ushome...you said ID "supplements" evolution. How? What evidence is there to support ID? What do you have that is support for your own theory, not something against evolution? I have yet to see it except for "look! It looks designed!" Well, it doesn't to me. It looks evolved over hundreds of millions of years. And you'll need a better argument than that if you expect to convince anyone who isn't blinded by religion.