Adam and eve or evolution

Started by Quiero Mota5 pages
Originally posted by Evil Dead
nowhere, I repeat, nowhere in the bible is it stated that anything contained within the pages of both testaments are less than 100% literal. If you are saying that these people knew these things were absurd when they were written and were meant to not be taken seriously as the author was just pulling their legs, you open up another can of worms. Invisible/magical dieties wouldn't exist so there goes the Old Testament. We know it doesn't rain cats (not really know, but know it's not plausible) because it has never been proven to do so. People do not resurrect from the dead so there goes the New Testament. If your implication is that the authors of the Holy Bible intended to take all of the outlandish stories as nothing more than metaphors because the audience should have automatically known these things don't happen because it is scientificly unsound.....there is no bible. No god makes for a boring first chapter and no Jesus makes for a less than spectacular sequel. So what was the point, a very very long winded bedtime story?

But on the same token, nowhere, I repeat, nowhere does it assert it is to be taken 100% literally. So, using deductive reasoing we can assume that the stories of Adam & Eve and Noah's Ark are metaphorical moral tales.

Unlike the Koran, which repeatadly and in no uncertain terms asserts that it isn't up to interpretation, no such thing is said within the Bible.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
But on the same token, nowhere, I repeat, nowhere does it assert it is to be taken 100% literally. So, using deductive reasoing we can assume that the stories of Adam & Eve and Noah's Ark are metaphorical moral tales.

Unlike the Koran, which repeatadly and in no uncertain terms asserts that it isn't up to interpretation, no such thing is said within the Bible.

but we can't pick and choose. there is no distincition made in the book between outlandish shit like Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark. etc. and Jesus virgin birth, miracles, son of god, resurrection. It's more outlandish. Adam and Eve are no more absurd than the rest of Genesis, so that's out the window too.

it's all absurd. Either the book as a whole is to be presented as factual by the author or the book as a whole is to be presented as a wild flight of fiction by the author as a morality tale, no different than Little Red Riding Hood.

I see too much evidence towards evolution to think that it all started with 2 naked people.

Originally posted by Evil Dead
but we can't pick and choose. there is no distincition made in the book between outlandish shit like Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark. etc. and Jesus virgin birth, miracles, son of god, resurrection. It's more outlandish. Adam and Eve are no more absurd than the rest of Genesis, so that's out the window too.

it's all absurd. Either the book as a whole is to be presented as factual by the author or the book as a whole is to be presented as a wild flight of fiction by the author as a morality tale, no different than Little Red Riding Hood.

It's not arbitrary "picking and choosing" which you seem to be implying. It's deciphering. If a story is scientifically unsound, then you can safely assume it is a metaphor. And that's exactly what Biblical scholars do: decipher.

"Either the whole book"? Who are you to decide that? Are you a Biblical scholar?

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
It's not arbitrary "picking and choosing" which you seem to be implying. It's deciphering. If a story is scientifically unsound, then you can safely assume it is a metaphor. And that's exactly what Biblical scholars do: decipher.

"Either the whole book"? Who are you to decide that? Are you a Biblical scholar?

Ha. Deciphering IS picking and choosing, it's just done under the facade of "scholarship." Hundreds of years ago, plenty more people believed the Bible as literal fact. Fast forward past numerous scientific advancements, and the same beliefs would seem rather silly. It's a retreat to a more intellectually defensible position.

Pretty much all of it that deals with the divine is scientifically unsound, so why is it so abhorrent to most Christians to see Jesus as the same metaphor that you can clearly see the others as?

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Ha. Deciphering IS picking and choosing, it's just done under the facade of "scholarship." Hundreds of years ago, plenty more people believed the Bible as literal fact. Fast forward past numerous scientific advancements, and the same beliefs would seem rather silly. It's a retreat to a more intellectually defensible position.

No, it's called placing the text in proper context and analyzing what may be meant by sections that are obvious metaphors. Science is allowed to reevaluate its position as times change and people look at things from new perspective. Religion cannot be attacked for the exact same process simply because you dislike it.

It's not arbitrary "picking and choosing" which you seem to be implying. It's deciphering. If a story is scientifically unsound, then you can safely assume it is a metaphor. And that's exactly what Biblical scholars do: decipher.

"Either the whole book"? Who are you to decide that? Are you a Biblical scholar?

No, it's called placing the text in proper context and analyzing what may be meant by sections that are obvious metaphors. Science is allowed to reevaluate its position as times change and people look at things from new perspective. Religion cannot be attacked for the exact same process simply because you dislike it.

are you now implying that virgin births, miracles and resurrection are scientificly sound? No diety is scientificly sound...just as the Adam and Eve story isn't scientificly sound. Your words Mota, not mine.

if god himself and Jesus Christ are both merely "obvious metaphors" as they are neither scientificly sound, again, then isn't the whole book a metaphor? Correct me if I'm wrong but the old testament is 100% about god and his doings...while the new testament is about Jesus Christ and his doings.

what are the qualifications of being a "bible scholor"? I've read the book a couple times. What credentials do I need to read the book again and all of a sudden see new words and verses contained therein?

If knowing the old testament is dedicated to god and the new testament is dedicated to J.C. makes one a scholar, I believe there are probably a billion or so bible scholars floating around.

Originally posted by Evil Dead
are you now implying that virgin births, miracles and resurrection are scientificly sound? No diety is scientificly sound...just as the Adam and Eve story isn't scientificly sound. Your words Mota, not mine.

if god himself and Jesus Christ are both merely "obvious metaphors" as they are neither scientificly sound, again, then isn't the whole book a metaphor? Correct me if I'm wrong but the old testament is 100% about god and his doings...while the new testament is about Jesus Christ and his doings.

Technically strawman.

Originally posted by Evil Dead
what are the qualifications of being a "bible scholor"? I've read the book a couple times. What credentials do I need to read the book again and all of a sudden see new words and verses contained therein?

None. You simply have to be able to express and defend those interpretations to others.

if evolution is true then to an extent adam and eve can be true. if we evolved from monkeys then there had to be a male and a female around the same time period, so one could argue that they would be adam and eve.

Originally posted by achangel death
if evolution is true then to an extent adam and eve can be true. if we evolved from monkeys then there had to be a male and a female around the same time period, so one could argue that they would be adam and eve.

Problem 1: We did not evolve from monkeys. Humans and other apes evolved from a common ancestor that does not exist on the Earth today. Monkeys diverged from apes, including humans, from an even older ancestor. To put is simply, everything on the Earth today evolved from earlier animals that do not exist today.

Problem 2: The human race could not have come from one mating pair. The interbreeding would have lead to the extinction of the human race long ago.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Problem 1: We did not evolve from monkeys. Humans and other apes evolved from a common ancestor that does not exist on the Earth today. Monkeys diverged from apes, including humans, from an even older ancestor. To put is simply, everything on the Earth today evolved from earlier animals that do not exist today.

Problem 2: The human race could not have come from one mating pair. The interbreeding would have lead to the extinction of the human race long ago.

👆

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Ha. Deciphering IS picking and choosing, it's just done under the facade of "scholarship." Hundreds of years ago, plenty more people believed the Bible as literal fact. Fast forward past numerous scientific advancements, and the same beliefs would seem rather silly. It's a retreat to a more intellectually defensible position.

Deciphering is not picking and choosing. When Egyptologists decipher hieroglyphics, does that mean they arbitrarily attach meanings that they came up with? "The falcon means this because I want it to"? No, absolutely not. They learn exactly what it means, and how it was meant to be. Same with Biblical scholars. And if you think scholarship is a facade then you don't have much respect for people who bust their ass to get a PhD.

Originally posted by Evil Dead

what are the qualifications of being a "bible scholor"? I've read the book a couple times. What credentials do I need to read the book again and all of a sudden see new words and verses contained therein?

If knowing the old testament is dedicated to god and the new testament is dedicated to J.C. makes one a scholar, I believe there are probably a billion or so bible scholars floating around.

The same qualifications for being any scholar; going to school and studying the subject. A professor of Biblical history knows much more than a joe blow who just watches History Channel shows on the Bible.

Originally posted by Evil Dead
are you now implying that virgin births, miracles and resurrection are scientificly sound? No diety is scientificly sound...just as the Adam and Eve story isn't scientificly sound. Your words Mota, not mine.

if god himself and Jesus Christ are both merely "obvious metaphors" as they are neither scientificly sound, again, then isn't the whole book a metaphor? Correct me if I'm wrong but the old testament is 100% about god and his doings...while the new testament is about Jesus Christ and his doings.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

Pretty much all of it that deals with the divine is scientifically unsound, so why is it so abhorrent to most Christians to see Jesus as the same metaphor that you can clearly see the others as?

Since both of these posts are basically the same, I'll kill both birds with one stone:

Now virgin births are not unsound. They've been observed and recorded many times in the animal kingdom, and since humans are animals, why is that so hard to believe? Being gay is not unique to humans, so why should virgin births be unique to animals?

And yes; I admit that God's existent is scientifically unsound. The reason for that is because science is only concerned with the material world, and God is transcendent/exists outside of time and space (which I know neither one of you believe anyways). So what it comes down to is that you both are hard-nosed doubters of anything that can't be seen.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Technically strawman.

Tell me about it...

1. you claim that the Adam and Eve story is obviosly a metaphor because it isn't scientificly sound. You, however, believe that god and Jesus are both true.......even though they are equally, if not more, scientificly unsound. Explain how this is a strawman? You do know the definition of a strawman position, right?

2. please give examples and link to sources of these virgin births among sexually reproducing species of the animal kingdom. You have piqued my interest with this.

3. you negated to mention miracles such as turning water into wine or walking on water. you also negated to mention resurrection. I'm not a genius by any stretch of the imagination but all of that appears to be scientificly unsound.

4. you admitted your diety is scientificly unsound but do not mention Jesus. Please explain how any of the items I've listed above distinguish the story of Jesus Christ from that of Adam and Eve, which you call an obvious metaphor.

who are adam and eve are they famous ???

Originally posted by Evil Dead
1. you claim that the Adam and Eve story is obviosly a metaphor because it isn't scientificly sound. You, however, believe that god and Jesus are both true.......even though they are equally, if not more, scientificly unsound. Explain how this is a strawman? You do know the definition of a strawman position, right?

2. please give examples and link to sources of these virgin births among sexually reproducing species of the animal kingdom. You have piqued my interest with this.

3. you negated to mention miracles such as turning water into wine or walking on water. you also negated to mention resurrection. I'm not a genius by any stretch of the imagination but all of that appears to be scientificly unsound.

4. you admitted your diety is scientificly unsound but do not mention Jesus. Please explain how any of the items I've listed above distinguish the story of Jesus Christ from that of Adam and Eve, which you call an obvious metaphor.

Easy down David Hume.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
No, it's called placing the text in proper context and analyzing what may be meant by sections that are obvious metaphors. Science is allowed to reevaluate its position as times change and people look at things from new perspective. Religion cannot be attacked for the exact same process simply because you dislike it.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending, science tries not to make statements like "this is the absolute fact of the matter" (scientists are human, thus imperfect, and a lot have made that statement). Religious texts are hardly, if ever, coined as incomplete or lacking clarity, but instead are addressed as the sole word of truth in the world.

Religion gains its institutional authority from being the mediator between truth and people. This is exacerbated by the idea that there is a specific truth through which one must use religion and the institution to obtain and follow. This is built upon the idea that there truly is a known and correct way to engage in worship and truth aquisition. If this known process is wrong or subject to revision, religion loses much of this authority. It is soely because they have the claim on truth that religion has power, if their truth is no longer true, they lose power. Much like how the protestant reformation was as much a socio-economic movement as it was a religious movement, subjective interpretation of religious literature is corrosive to the establishment of the church, and athema to the concept of a known way to acquire divine knowledge.

Thus, the process of revision hurts the church. Because it claims to know an unchanging, divinly inspired truth, changing what that truth is defines past religious truth as errorous. Because the mechanism of knowing truth is never revised (ie, biblical scholarship, social pressure, priestly revelation) this indicates that there is no specific reason to believe that the revised truth is any closer to reality than the unrevised truth.

Science is pretty much the same, with one major exception. Built into science is the idea that no single fact is ever true, just the best current explanation. This is something lost in public debates of science, where all sides want to claim scientific superiority, as it is the narrative of authority in modern times. A democrat trying to say why science supports stem cell research will rarely point out that science is neither authoratative nor ethical (which most anti-stem cell arguments are), rendering the scientific argument moot with the exception of addressing issues of specific empirical knowledge (although, still not authoritative). To show this further, I recently asked a few of my profs questions relating to post-modernism and the how we know what we know sort of stuff, the most common answer was a laugh and addmition that we cannot really know anything, just explain what we see. The best comment was "Anything you write down is wrong", which I feel to be quite demonstrative of scientific thinking, although no in how the public conceptualizes it.

lol, I guess this turned into a bit of a rant, but summarized, the specific claims to truth that a religion makes are argued against by the act of revision. Science, while not understood well publicly, integrates the fact that we cannot ever know for sure, and thus embraces revision as something that strengthens the foundation of the "truth" revealed by its methods. Mabye attacking religion for revision is unnecessary, but it undermines any claim used by religion to maintain its authority on truth. Religion cannot simultaniously be the unaltered word of God and his directives for action on earth and subject to social pressures and historical revision. blah, I will stop there for reasons of conscision

Originally posted by inimalist
Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending, science tries not to make statements like "this is the absolute fact of the matter" (scientists are human, thus imperfect, and a lot have made that statement). Religious texts are hardly, if ever, coined as incomplete or lacking clarity, but instead are addressed as the sole word of truth in the world.

In the area of actual scholarly discussion of religious text absolutes are avoided.

Originally posted by inimalist
Religion gains its institutional authority from being the mediator between truth and people. This is exacerbated by the idea that there is a specific truth through which one must use religion and the institution to obtain and follow. This is built upon the idea that there truly is a known and correct way to engage in worship and truth aquisition. If this known process is wrong or subject to revision, religion loses much of this authority. It is soely because they have the claim on truth that religion has power, if their truth is no longer true, they lose power.

And?

Originally posted by inimalist
Much like how the protestant reformation was as much a socio-economic movement as it was a religious movement, subjective interpretation of religious literature is corrosive to the establishment of the church, and athema to the concept of a known way to acquire divine knowledge.

Thinking is a perfectly valid way to seek divine knowledge.

Originally posted by inimalist
Thus, the process of revision hurts the church.

You must be aware that there is no "the church" anymore. Revision can simply branch off into new versions of the faith.

Originally posted by inimalist
Because it claims to know an unchanging, divinly inspired truth, changing what that truth is defines past religious truth as errorous. Because the mechanism of knowing truth is never revised (ie, biblical scholarship, social pressure, priestly revelation) this indicates that there is no specific reason to believe that the revised truth is any closer to reality than the unrevised truth.

Depends on the church. Many simply claim that the Bible contains the truth and that they have interpreted it.

A thinking person can see simply from the number of different faiths (in Christianity alone it tops 30,000) that the "truth" is constantly revised and can be open to interpretation. The only thing that really matters is which one you choose.

Originally posted by inimalist
Science is pretty much the same, with one major exception. Built into science is the idea that no single fact is ever true, just the best current explanation. This is something lost in public debates of science, where all sides want to claim scientific superiority, as it is the narrative of authority in modern times. A democrat trying to say why science supports stem cell research will rarely point out that science is neither authoratative nor ethical (which most anti-stem cell arguments are), rendering the scientific argument moot with the exception of addressing issues of specific empirical knowledge (although, still not authoritative). To show this further, I recently asked a few of my profs questions relating to post-modernism and the how we know what we know sort of stuff, the most common answer was a laugh and addmition that we cannot really know anything, just explain what we see. The best comment was "Anything you write down is wrong", which I feel to be quite demonstrative of scientific thinking, although no in how the public conceptualizes it.

You're making universal assumptions about thousands of different faiths again.

Originally posted by inimalist
Mabye attacking religion for revision is unnecessary.

Completely.

Originally posted by inimalist
[Revision] undermines any claim used by religion to maintain its authority on truth.

I agree. I simply disagree with the claim that religion cannot be allowed to assess its texts just as a science can go back and look at evidence again.

Originally posted by inimalist
Religion cannot simultaniously be the unaltered word of God and his directives for action on earth and subject to social pressures and historical revision. blah, I will stop there for reasons of conscision

It can if one assumes that human beings are imperfect.

Originally posted by Evil Dead
1. you claim that the Adam and Eve story is obviosly a metaphor because it isn't scientificly sound. You, however, believe that god and Jesus are both true.......even though they are equally, if not more, scientificly unsound. Explain how this is a strawman? You do know the definition of a strawman position, right?

"A equals B, so therefore B must equal C." is a logical fallacy. Are you asking just for the sake of it?

And I already agreed that God is unscientific.

Originally posted by Evil Dead
2. please give examples and link to sources of these virgin births among sexually reproducing species of the animal kingdom. You have piqued my interest with this.

Knock yourself out...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=virgin+births+among+animals

Now since humans are also animals, why is the virgin birth of Jesus so hard to believe?

Originally posted by Evil Dead

3. you negated to mention miracles such as turning water into wine or walking on water. you also negated to mention resurrection. I'm not a genius by any stretch of the imagination but all of that appears to be scientificly unsound.
.

Even if I did, would it really matter? You don't believe in miracles which is your problem.

Originally posted by Evil Dead

4. you admitted your diety is scientificly unsound but do not mention Jesus. Please explain how any of the items I've listed above distinguish the story of Jesus Christ from that of Adam and Eve, which you call an obvious metaphor.

Jesus and Adam & Eve are two different ballgames; what are you getting at?

But in all those cases, are you saying god was the responsable party? No. In those examples, the breeding occured when the females were seperated from males, and Mary wasn't seperated from a male. So, if the shark or komodo or snakes had given birth after being continiously in the company of a male or males and the zoos had called a press conference to announce a vigin birth, who would believe them?

Are people really using the asexual reproductive capabilities of certain reptiles and fish as valid proof that Mary was a virgin, seriously?