Originally posted by GN.
So if the Presence came in the Marvel universe he woudent be omnipotent anymore? 😂 Your logic is to flawed.
No. You obviously don't understand my logic. In order for the beyonder to be omnipotent and a supreme diety, he'd have to have a wrealm in which to rule. An omniverse of sorts. He has none. He himself is part of the marvel omnireality. Which means ALL, everything. He certainly is a property of marvel and thus he cannot be supreme if he didn't create marvel and only discovered it.
Originally posted by llagrok
So basically, in 83 the Beyonder was the Supreme being, in an omniverse much bigger than ours?
Originally posted by fangirl101Or he was the supreme being of marvel and yet he didnt' create marvel
and had only had self discovery and discovered the Marvel multiverse.
The supreme being of marvel doesn't know his own creations?
It took a major event just for him to notice. (the creation of Molecule Man > LT)
I hate analogies,
but it's like a single celled organism trying to get a Human being's attention,
look at it that way,
when Owen Reece had his accident,
finally the single celled organism was able to shout, HEY LOOK!!! We're over HERE!!! (sorta speak)
Originally posted by Mr Master
But your ignoring the fact friend,
that the reason Beyonder didn't notice the Marvelverse,
was because it was so insignificant to him.It took a major event just for him to notice. (the creation of Molecule Man > LT)
I hate analogies,
but it's like a single celled organism trying to get a Human being's attention,
look at it that way,
when Owen Reece had his accident,
finally the single celled organism was able to shout, HEY LOOK!!! We're over HERE!!! (sorta speak)
Originally posted by fangirl101Doesn't matter how insignifigant it was to him.
He didn't create the Multiverse.
Thus he wasn't that eras supreme being.
Beyonder did not create that drop of water
Beyonder created the Ocean surrounding that drop. 🙂
Originally posted by fangirl101He being a creation himself is proof of that.
I think I understand fangirl's point (which is worrying as most of the time s/he seems absurd) and it's actually quite a fundamental one.
supreme being traits include (and must include) OMNISCIENCE and OMNIPRESENCE. to discover anything is an impossibility, logically, if the being doing the discovery is in actuality supreme.
it's why all mono-theistic religions with a free-will/test/reward motif fall flat on their faces.
the best that can be speculated, imo, is that The Beyonder did indeed create everything within and without his realm, but that at some point decided to annex off a infinitesimally minute speck of it and leave it to evolve/develop according to his ideas, then he went and wiped from his mind all memory of such an existence and time and sent himself to sleep to re-awaken as The Beyonder (Pre-retcon) whom we have come to see as the most powerful being ever in Marvel history.
this way, TOAA would basically be Beyonder... which is convenient as we've never seen TOAA (as far as I'm aware) and it would also fit Beyonder's character of repeatedly attempting to "get" humanity/mortality/the world/existence of the finite and inferior... because he can be nothing other than supreme, it requires a pretence or a "forgetting" to even begin to experience anything else.
Originally posted by janus77
I think I understand fangirl's point (which is worrying as most of the time s/he seems absurd) and it's actually quite a fundamental one.supreme being traits include (and must include) OMNISCIENCE and OMNIPRESENCE. to discover anything is an impossibility, logically, if the being doing the discovery is in actuality supreme.
it's why all mono-theistic religions with a free-will/test/reward motif fall flat on their faces.
the best that can be speculated, imo, is that The Beyonder did indeed create everything within and without his realm, but that at some point decided to annex off a infinitesimally minute speck of it and leave it to evolve/develop according to his ideas, then he went and wiped from his mind all memory of such an existence and time and sent himself to sleep to re-awaken as The Beyonder (Pre-retcon) whom we have come to see as the most powerful being ever in Marvel history.
this way, TOAA would basically be Beyonder... which is convenient as we've never seen TOAA (as far as I'm aware) and it would also fit Beyonder's character of repeatedly attempting to "get" humanity/mortality/the world/existence of the finite and inferior... because he can be nothing other than supreme, it requires a pretence or a "forgetting" to even begin to experience anything else.
Originally posted by fangirl101
The only problem with this theory is that the beyonder himself cannot be the TOAA as he was retconned by TOAA. We all know TOAA can never be retconned.
Beyonder would be both TOAA (some part/aspect of his consciousness left separate and operational at trans-Marvel levels) and Beyonder (another, intentionally limited aspect of consciousness operating within established parameters) within Marvel.
Originally posted by janus77I think I understand fangirl's point (which is worrying as most of the time s/he seems absurd) and it's actually quite a fundamental one.
supreme being traits include (and must include) OMNISCIENCE and OMNIPRESENCE. to discover anything is an impossibility, logically, if the being doing the discovery is in actuality supreme.
it's why all mono-theistic religions with a free-will/test/reward motif fall flat on their faces.
the best that can be speculated, imo, is that The Beyonder did indeed create everything within and without his realm, but that at some point decided to annex off a infinitesimally minute speck of it and leave it to evolve/develop according to his ideas, then he went and wiped from his mind all memory of such an existence and time and sent himself to sleep to re-awaken as The Beyonder (Pre-retcon) whom we have come to see as the most powerful being ever in Marvel history.
this way, TOAA would basically be Beyonder... which is convenient as we've never seen TOAA (as far as I'm aware) and it would also fit Beyonder's character of repeatedly attempting to "get" humanity/mortality/the world/existence of the finite and inferior... because he can be nothing other than supreme, it requires a pretence or a "forgetting" to even begin to experience anything else.
But actually Starlin placed Beyonder completely outside,
dis-connected from the Marvelverse.
Sounds silly but let's say, like another company (Beyonder) blending into the Marvelverse,
one way I can describe in my own words what Shooter said.
So another reason Beyonder didn't notice the Marvelverse,
was because the Marvelverse was not part of the Beyond Realm,
it was that speck yes, but a speck disconnected but ever so close.
If a breach between realities had not been pricked open,
they would've continued existing oblivious to each other.
Here's Starlin's word on it,
tell me your take from this:
I particularly enjoyed the part where Shooter states
the Beyonder even discovered him as part of the Paramecium,
swimming in a drop of water that was the infinite Marvelverse. 😂
Originally posted by Mr Master
👆 That's a brilliant theory, sincerely I enjoyed that,
sounds sweet, and I would've like it if it were true.But actually Starlin placed Beyonder completely outside,
dis-connected from the Marvelverse.Sounds silly but let's say, like another company (Beyonder) blending into the Marvelverse,
one way I can describe in my own words what Shooter said.So another reason Beyonder didn't notice the Marvelverse,
was because the Marvelverse was not part of the Beyond Realm,
it was that speck yes, but a speck disconnected but ever so close.If a breach between realities had not been pricked open,
they would've continued existing oblivious to each other.Here's Starlin's word on it,
tell me your take from this:I particularly enjoyed the part where Shooter states
the Beyonder even discovered him as part of the Paramecium,
swimming in a drop of water that was the infinite Marvelverse. 😂
I think that's what attracted me to cosmic-comics, their hierarchies and topology and mythos all provide an interesting avenue for thinking about metaphysical matters more 'concretely'.
from that quote, it sounds like The Beyonder was not so much supreme as independent and self-sufficient. he needed for no other power, no other beginning (nor end) but himself. it would be more in-keeping with the idea of a space of multiple Gods, who each either inhabit and manifest some fragment of an underlying 'verse or are discrete and separate fabrics that exist in absolute nothingness.
that's more of a polytheistic take, but it of necessity reduces him/any god at all, down to something less than supreme and definitely takes away omniscience and omnipresence.
like say the Greek pantheon, they're gods they create, guide and control life, of lower order creatures, but they in-turn are the playthings of forces beyond them.
in sum:
Beyonder and the Marvel Universe both exist as 'sets' either as independent sets (in which case you invent an absolute nothingness with which to delineate them) or as subsets of a more essential and primal universe (say our reality?), in which case any "god" within either of the sub-sets (Beyonder or MU) would be defined as being less-than supreme.
Hey, you lost me there a bit buddy, you're speculating a little too much now.
I like your ideas, but they're not really relating to Marvel comics entirely.
It's simple.
There's Two realities:
1. the Marvelverse (including the LT, Eternity and ... even Jim Shooter) 😂
2. the Beyond Realm (everything outside the Marvelverse)
The Marvelverse is an infinite Multiverse, (droplet)
but in comparison with the grander of the Beyond Realm, (ocean)
it's like a drop of water to an the ocean.
And yes, "Our Own" Universe is the Infinite Multiverse:
(that's Shooter talking, remember in his interview he placed himself as part of the Marvelverse)
That's it. 🙂
what you state there is exactly what the quote says, what I was talking of goes more towards the technical definition of Supreme being and the metaphysics that goes with it (questions of omniscience and such), which is more than the comics can support (and not their intended purpose either).
the relations are as you state, the problem is that if there exists (in any reality whatsoever) an unknown and independent quantity, then the being discovering that state of affairs (The Beyonder) has just also discovered that he is not omniscient (and thus, by implication that he ma not be omnipotent).
I guess, if we include our own reality, then we're positing a limited conception of infinite/supreme (paradoxical but acceptible within the parameters of comic thinking), in which case Beyonder is closer to true omniscience and other qualities of a Supreme being, within the confines of comics, than any other marvel character we've witnessed.
