Originally posted by carver9
I agree and good post, so how are we to know hancocks limit if he never failed to do anything and if you havent seen a limit to his ability then why is this battle going on. You cant say that someone would beat another person if they havent shown a weakness. Can you show me superman getting hit by a train and not even flinching, no, can I show you hancock lifting a island, no because both scenrio never happened.Answer this for me though, when superman 1st arrived at the island to confront superman, why was he so weak that he was unable to even swing his fist at lex luthor and basically almost got killed if it wasnt for lois but he had enough strength to pick up that same island that took all of his strength in the beginning. HMMM, makes you think about that feat.
Honestly I dont know who would win, I just gave it to hancock because he showed no weakness and again got hit by a diesel and didnt even register it. I guess I'll wait until hancock 2.
Precisely. We can't deduce Hancock's limits/abilities with any kind of logical accuracy from his feats thus far, and therein lies the problem, because as it is right now, Superman's feats > Hancock's feats. The lack of a limit has not been shown by Superman either, so that argument, if it is one, applies both ways. Do you remember that particularly asinine assumption by someone here that the Cloverfield monster must be assumed to have unlimited durability as no arguable limits were shown by it during the movie? Yeah. Adding on to the point on quality of feats, if a being showed the ability to destroy a universe and no apparent limits, can it be assumed to be above the UN? The answer is "possibly", but not at the current moment, as that universe feat is well within the UN's shown ability and the being's lack of current limits does not equate to a lack of limits.
As for why all that happened in Superman Returns, my guess would be that it was meant to showcase Superman's strength of will and sense of duty overcoming his weaknesses. I don't think it was particularly well done, but that's besides the point.
Fair enough. Hancock may very well win, and we would have a better gauge if he went all out, but Superman has to take this on current information.
Originally posted by Placidity
Those are good feats that I was already aware of.Just cause they are impressive, doesn't make him faster.
Also, where is it stated that Superman can fly at light speed in SR???
Curious that.If you check the title of this thread, we are discussing about Routh's Superman - i.e Superman Returns. Not other movies.
Superman did not speed in front of bullets FROM ORBIT. Good way to take that out of context. He was already on his way there way before the thug turned the gattling gun on the cops. He did however, speed infront of the bullets from an unknown distance behind the gattling gun after the bullets were fired.
Hancock speedblitzed a group of terrorist and BFR'ed them before the leader could see or even know what just happened.
That obviously shows how fast Hancock is, but its not proof that he is faster than Superman.
Hancock is definitely great (and he passes the 'bullet test' that i had put before in this thread, which Superman also passes but both Hulks fail ....Hulk 1 & 2). However, Superman is more formidable than Hancock.
But to respond to your comments:
You claimed that nothing shows Superman is faster ....and that we are talking about Routh Superman and not the other Supermen.
First of all note that it is the same Superman in movie continuity, but for the sake of argument I will not use the other depictions (the Christopher Reeves Supes) and just focus on the Routh Superman.
In the movie (if you watched it, that is) when he comes back and starts rescuing people, he is shown on TV in a myriad countries rescuing people from that and this and this-that. And the commentator states that for him to be saving all those people at basically almost the same time, he must be travelling at around light speed around the world.
That was Routh Superman.
Hancock is fast .....it is shown that he blitzed people (although blitzing a human being doesn't mean you are moving that fast .....move at anything above Mach 1.5 to mach 2, and a human sized object within a small visual frame of reference would seem nigh invisible). We also saw that Hancock was creating sonic booms when he flew, although flying at even mach 1 will create a sonic boom.
However, Routh Superman was saving people in opposite corners of the globe, under such a small time scale that the commentators noted he was moving at around C.
I'd say that Routh is faster ....far faster. Based on actual feats seen on screen, not speculation based on 'since we did not see X do Y, then how can we say X cannot do Y.'
As for strength, same holds. Hancock is super-strong, but his high end feats are no where near Routh's. And his strength scale actually has superior peers (e.g. his 'wife' was far stronger, and she even told him so). Flinging a whale a mile out is a good feat by any measure, but based on ACTUAL FEATS SHOWN (and NOT speculation based on 'we did not see it, so maybe he also can' circular logic), Routh's lifting of the Kryptonite laden land mass was FAR greater.
As for invulnerability ....erm, why was Hancock butt-@$$ naked cooling his behind with ice-cream after an apartment fire?
Anyways, Hancock's feats are far superior to those shown by either movie Hulk, but based on actual feats shown he is not (yet ....maybe there will be a Hancock 2) equal to Routh's Superman.
He is not even equal to his 'wife.'
Originally posted by lft4ded
But we really only have her word for that. At the end of their fight he had her pinned to the ground struggling to get him off.
I agree kinda. The reason for my "kinda", is because she might actually be stronger than him, but its just that she may only allow him to be as strong as she wants. For example she mentioned that being a hero is part of him its what he naturally is. He was the one to always save her from "bad ppl". Is it because she was unable to save herself? No, but she allowed him to be the "stronger" one. Its really hard to say.
After seeing the movie, i think Hancock and Supes would be a great fight. Imma call it a stalemate imo. Also, despite what anyone says, i cant consider Routh Superman in continuity with Reeve's. Sorry.😬
Originally posted by spetznaz
Hancock is definitely great (and he passes the 'bullet test' that i had put before in this thread, which Superman also passes but both Hulks fail ....Hulk 1 & 2). However, Superman is more formidable than Hancock.But to respond to your comments:
You claimed that nothing shows Superman is faster ....and that we are talking about Routh Superman and not the other Supermen.
First of all note that it is the same Superman in movie continuity, but for the sake of argument I will not use the other depictions (the Christopher Reeves Supes) and just focus on the Routh Superman.
In the movie (if you watched it, that is) when he comes back and starts rescuing people, he is shown on TV in a myriad countries rescuing people from that and this and this-that. And the commentator states that for him to be saving all those people at basically almost the same time, he must be travelling at around light speed around the world.
That was Routh Superman.
Hancock is fast .....it is shown that he blitzed people (although blitzing a human being doesn't mean you are moving that fast .....move at anything above Mach 1.5 to mach 2, and a human sized object within a small visual frame of reference would seem nigh invisible). We also saw that Hancock was creating sonic booms when he flew, although flying at even mach 1 will create a sonic boom.
However, Routh Superman was saving people in opposite corners of the globe, under such a small time scale that the commentators noted he was moving at around C.
I'd say that Routh is faster ....far faster. Based on actual feats seen on screen, not speculation based on 'since we did not see X do Y, then how can we say X cannot do Y.'
As for strength, same holds. Hancock is super-strong, but his high end feats are no where near Routh's. And his strength scale actually has superior peers (e.g. his 'wife' was far stronger, and she even told him so). Flinging a whale a mile out is a good feat by any measure, but based on ACTUAL FEATS SHOWN (and NOT speculation based on 'we did not see it, so maybe he also can' circular logic), Routh's lifting of the Kryptonite laden land mass was FAR greater.
As for invulnerability ....erm, why was Hancock butt-@$$ naked cooling his behind with ice-cream after an apartment fire?
Anyways, Hancock's feats are far superior to those shown by either movie Hulk, but based on actual feats shown he is not (yet ....maybe there will be a Hancock 2) equal to Routh's Superman.
He is not even equal to his 'wife.'
I've always wanted Superman to win this fight, but I've always thought there was insufficient proof to that Superman would absolutely win. I think my opinion has changed.
In the speed department, I'm still not convinced. Superman sure has a superior feat going for him when he races across the globe in seconds. However, personally, I've always seen the plane rescue scene as displaying Superman's lack of speed in trying to overtake the airplane. Anyway, at best we should say he's speed is inconsistent throughout the movie.
Strength-wise, so far Supes has proven to be much superior with the continent-lifting feat (while embedded with K-nite).
Durability - this seals deal for me. Hancock has shown an inferior level of "invulnerability" than Superman, mainly due to his discomfort after being in a mere fire. Superman, on the other hand was submerged unharmed in lava, again with a piece of k-nite in him.
But then again, the fire scene seems like PIS, and in my opinion, for a humour/comedy element in the movie. I mean, someone being able to withstand a speeding train, gunfire and RPG's really shouldn't have any problems with a fire.
Anyway, I guess there won't ever be any concrete evidence of who would win, but I'm leaning towards Superman now 🙂
Originally posted by spetznaz
He is not even equal to his 'wife.'
This doesn't prove anything regarding Han vs Supes though. I would agree that his wife is stronger. I mean she was able to summon storms and cyclones during the fight. At least I assume it was her doing...
I definitely agree with Ouallada when it comes to Superman lifting the land mass against all odds. That's what heroes do. I forget which comic I read it in (maybe Thor) but this line has always stuck with me: "Beyond endurance must I strive".
The incident with Hancock and the fire I don't view as any sort of true limitation. I honestly think it was, as Ray made a point of saying, that Hancock was being an ******* to a lot of people. The movie largely takes place in Florida. What is a single ice cream cone going to do that a 2 second flight to the nearest body of water wouldn't?
Regarding the relative strength between Hancock and Mary (though irrelevant): The reason why Hancock had all those scars is that, from Mary's 'always the hero' speech, is that even after they were together long enough to be completely powered down, it was still in Hancock's nature to attempt to help those less fortunate, but especially risking his life to save hers, the true measure of his love for her. As his powers would slowly return to their peak his healing became faster and faster and I see no reason to think that fully powered, he wouldn't heal as fast as Hulk 2003.
All that said, for now I'd give the speed edge to Superman. He gets dressed into and out of a business suit it less than a second. In the bank incident Superman could've removed the explosives before the guy knew what had happened (placing them on the guy) or simply removed the detonater from the guys hand, and holding the trigger before the spring expanded. That would've been impressive! Though taking the guys hand seems more in his nature.
If memory serves from the DVD extras, while Hulk had already reached his maximum size, his strength would continue to grow. Downside is that if'd be out before he ever became a serious threat to either of them.
Was it stated that Mary could control the weather? In the same way their being in the same location caused an exothermic reaction - really going at it when fighting could probably cause even more pronounced environmental effects. Though this is irrelevant too. ;-)
For now I'd say stalemate between Superman and Hancock (or the greatest fight this world has ever seen). I'm uncertain if Superman could cause Hancock more than mild discomfort and vice versa. However I think he's more than capable of playing keep-away.
Originally posted by Symbiotic
OK, so it's basically a given that the Hulk stands no chance here. Hancock is immortal, and has no shown weaknesses, as his wife is not at the battlefield, or could fly away. It's a tossup between him and Superman, but I'm leaning towards Hancock.
Erm ...the same could be said about Superman.
He is basically immortal, and he has no known weaknesses that can be used in the battle (Hancock does NOT have Kryptonite, and he does not have magic, nor does he have the ability to exude red solar radiation).
Thus Superman, in this battle, also has no weaknesses.
On top of that, Superman has a list of other powers .....on top of strength and speed and flight (which is where Hancock stops).
Thus, even without including feats (Superman's movie feats are far greater than hancock's), Superman is already everything that Hancock is, AND MORE!
He also does not need to cool himself with icecream after a simple apartment fire, and has been shown tunneling into the Earth's core (using his strength and heat vision) while surrounded by red hot magma!
Even without feats, Superman has everything Hancock has, plus much much more.
After watching Hancock, Ruth does have better feats them him so its very likely he would be taking the majority; It however, wont be easy, he (Hancock) flew into space and painted or did whatever to the moon and it was large enough to see from earth. Thats pretty damn impressive IMO.
But in response to his own wife being stronger; it could of meant just overall power; as in the fact that she can also control the weather (apparently?); not just physical strength. Like someone else said, at the end of their fight, he had her pinned and she couldn't get him off.