Lightsaber Dueling and Precognition

As we all know thanks to our favorite little green friend, Jedi use the force to 'see' for them and to predict incoming blows- at least, incoming blaster bolts. We could see even little Padawans in AOTC block blaster bolts by being able to predict them.

Now then, I ask you; in theory, this same method of predicting should also be applicable in lightsaber combat. However- people still get defeated in lightsaber combat, DESPITE, supposedly, being capable of predicting every single strike made by their targets. If you can predict everything, how do you get beaten in lightsabers? It makes no sense. Well, it does make sense when we compare little padawans to Masters, because masters are simply faster and stronger, but how can seemingly evenly matched people, with no particular speed gaps and such between them- like ROTS Anakin and Dooku- have their fight ended? Especially if you predict everything?

Furthermore, Vaapad was called 'unpredictable'. How can something be unpredictable if you can predict every single blow via the force? It really doesn't make any sense.

My thoughts- could it be that possibly, in close-ranged combat, precognition can't be used in the same way or at least to the same extent that it can be used against blaster bolts?

So, what do you people think?

my feeling on it, is in, sword fighting, people learn a certain sequence of blows. or combinations (as witnessed by POD) In saber combat, they both know what blows are coming, its just a matter of who executes better.

Originally posted by truejedi
my feeling on it, is in, sword fighting, people learn a certain sequence of blows. or combinations (as witnessed by POD) In saber combat, they both know what blows are coming, its just a matter of who executes better.

Hmm... I've thought about this for some time now, and I've reached the conclusion that a Jedi does not truly see the attack before it is coming- he merely used the force as his eyes, allowing him to see attacks from all angles, from behind him, etc... this is why spins and behind the back blocks are often used.

I think this is how Jedi are capable of matching people like Sidious and Bane, who move faster than the eye can see; they use the force to 'see' them, allowing them to trace them and their attacks. Not exactly knowing where each attack will be, but at least allowing them to keep up with their opponents.

However, I also believe that stronger Jedi are better in this- note how, when matched with Sidious' speed, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto were simply overmatched; they could not see him, he was simply too fast and too vicious. Mace and Yoda, however, were a different story; calling upon the power of the force, they could see him and therefore match him in combat.

My interpretation has always been that, Jedi can "see" an attack with the Force, but that does not mean they have the speed to keep up with, and counter it.

Originally posted by Tangible God
My interpretation has always been that, Jedi can "see" an attack with the Force, but that does not mean they have the speed to keep up with, and counter it.

I agree. Knowing what an enemy will do doesn't help much if you don't have the speed/skill/reflexes to react accordingly.

It is also stated in 'Path of Destruction' that Jedi/Sith can use the Force to 'jam' their opponents precognitive ability. Not render it completely useless, just enough to make it harder to get a precise reading.

Originally posted by Tangible God
My interpretation has always been that, Jedi can "see" an attack with the Force, but that does not mean they have the speed to keep up with, and counter it.

Precisely. If one were to have prior knowledge that a nuclear warhead is six seconds away from detonating in one's current location, does that mean one is capable of avoiding or deflecting it? No.

As Path of Destruction has shown us, Force aptitude, strength, and mastery is infinitely more decisive than actual technical prowess. Kas'im is miles ahead of Darth Bane in terms of technical ability and acquired experience but was unable to achieve a true advantage until he utilized a lightsaber form that Bane had no prior understanding -- no prior memorized techniques, styles, or sequence to counter.

Also, Vaapad's most likely unpredictable in the way in which each individual move joins together to form a combo, or how they work together to eliminate an opponent's defence. While each individual move would easily be seeable, and thus wouldn't be labelled unpredictable, precognition isn't something that would give you insight into what I was just describing about how individual moves would work together.

Obi Wan could see Darth Mauls showstopper a few second before it happened.

Interestingly enough, it actually mentions Vaapad in PoD, which I thought as odd at the time. Didn't Mace Windu invent it? Was that just an oversight?

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Interestingly enough, it actually mentions Vaapad in PoD, which I thought as odd at the time. Didn't Mace Windu invent it? Was that just an oversight?

The author of that novel, in his usual manner, attempted to imbue one of his characters with the deadliest lightsaber form that wasn't created at the time -- and realized that he had just bitchslapped canon -- and so he addressed it in an interview: "LOLZ I WAS UP LATE AND FORGOT THAT MACE INVENTED VAAPAD... the ****er!"

It was an oversight.

Thank's. But does it still count as canon?

Originally posted by Tangible God
My interpretation has always been that, Jedi can "see" an attack with the Force, but that does not mean they have the speed to keep up with, and counter it.

This sounds good and now that I think about it it makes perfect sense. You don't lose a saber battle by not seeing the next move; you lose it by not being fast enough. It all comes down to precision, execution, and speed.
And possibly fooling your opponent into predicting to wrong move.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Thank's. But does it still count as canon?

No. It was a mistake.

As far as I'm concerned, the whole 'memorized sequences' idea was simply for training purposes during the Sith Wars when they were trying to turn out hundreds of Sith students as quickly as possible. In truth, I do not think that that method is used beyond training. No mention was made of it in Rule of Two, if I recall correctly, when Darth Bane has become the Dark Lord of the Sith and is no longer a student.

As for why lightsaber duels don't just keep going...

1) Precognition cancels itself out when both opponents are attempting to use it. Jedi and Sith have the ability to jam each other's precognitive abilities, making it difficult for them to predict each other's moves.

2) Physical prowess and pure skill over the opponent will usually win the fight, excluding plot-based reasons for the underdog winning and such.

3) Jedi and Sith have a great stamina for battle, relying on the Force to assist them, but they can only go for so long before they tire out and slip up.