The Overseers Vs Living Tribunal, Eternity, and Infinity

Thanks a bunch. Do you have a scan of the Overseers?

Originally posted by cloud102
In DC's The Next, the term "Omniverse" was used. The Oblivion Shadow threatened all creation. Or Omniverse. So the Oblivion Shadow was a Omniverse threat.

But the DC Omniverse has only one infninite Multiverse. I mean the infinity is called Multiverse, sometimes Omniverse in DC right? ^^

just curious 😛

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
But the DC Omniverse has only one infninite Multiverse. I mean the infinity is called Multiverse, sometimes Omniverse in DC right? ^^

just curious 😛

That was never explained. Anyway, it was mentioned by a scientist that "Superman saved the Omniverse". Later Metron needed the aid of The Next heroes AND Superman to SAVE the Metaverse. Whatever that is. It was also said that the Oblivion Shadow was a threat to ALL creation. Thus a threat to the Omniverse.

Originally posted by cloud102
Thanks a bunch. Do you have a scan of the Overseers?

If I remember correctly, they haven't actually appeared on panel, just reffered to when Adjudicator's history was revealed.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
If I remember correctly, they haven't actually appeared on panel, just reffered to when Adjudicator's history was revealed.

Could it be that they are the artists and writers from DC? Since we can't see them, they have no shape, just an name like TOAA. Though TOAA is alone and they seem to be many.

If it's so then Overseers >>>> LT, Eternity Infinity, Thanos with HOTU and Pre-Rectonn Beyonder 🙂.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
No 🙂

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

Marvel Omniverse = all of Marvel Reality

DC Multiverse (Pre Crisis) = all of DC Reality = Current DC Multiverse (or Omniverse, it really doesn't matter how you name it)

DC Universe is not = Marvel Universe per se

all of DC Reality = all of Marvel Reality

Meh, it's enough for me, but many, most actually will call that hyperbole,
since it's a single statement with no illustrated depiction of this "Omniverse."

On the other hand I disagree with you
if you're comparing pre-crisis DC's size to Marvel's current.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

infinity x infinity = infinity

In Marvel there are different levels of infinity.

They base this idea on the real world's "Cantor's Theorem,"
mathematician who proved there are indeed, "levels of Infinity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_theorem

Cantor's Theorem:

"The theorem is named for Georg Cantor, who first stated and proved it."

:

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

Since you an expert in the Marvel cosmic history ^^, I have some questions.

In those Pre-Recton Beyonder an MM days,
the Marvel Reality was classified (by Marvel) as an Multiverse, right?
Or was it already classifed (by Marvel) as an Omniverse?

I mean,
did they use the Word Omniverse to classify their Marvel Verse BACK THEN?

The term Omniverse was being used by Marvel since 1983,
but it was isolated in UK titles only,
which were not part of continuity at the time.

Officially, the Omniverse was introduced into continuity in 92'

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

I don'T mean what is beyond the Multiverse,
DC had that too I guess after reading this thread.

A scan of a face that states it can destroy universes with a shrug surely doesn't.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

So the Marvel Multiverse, or Marvel-Verse was renamed to an Omniverse "recently", or expanded (though you can't expand infinity, anyway, comics don't have to follow the rules of logic^^),

Also, as I said, in Marvel, like in the real world,
there are levels of infinity:

=====================================

I'm not surprised, in Marvel, there are different levels of infinity: (omnipotence)

Kubik says,

"Our power is as nothing to the Celestials"

Kosmos replies,

"But Kubik, do we not possess Infinite Power (Omnipotence)

Kubik retorts,

"Yes, Our might is Infinite. But there are Levels of Infinity"

..............................................................

CONTINUES ...

Kubik finishes:

"Thus are demonstrated two levels of infinity,

there are of course, an infinite number more"

=====================================

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

the Beyonder was depowered while LT was promoted by his boss^^?

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

I don't know much about the Overseers,
but it sounds like the DC Version of the Pre-Recton Beyonder,
existing outside of the Multiverse etc.

Existing outside of creation is common place in Marvel.

They might be DC's version of the Masters of the Matrix at best.

Beyonder wasn't only outside of creation,
Beyonder was completely disconnected from the Multiverse,
an entire separate reality. (like another company is the best way to describe it)

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

Anyway,
if all of Reality was an Multiverse back in those glorious Pre-Rectonn Beyonder days,
and this Multiverse is now only an small Part of the larger Marvel Omniverse, wouldn't that mean that the Multiverse was depowerded too?

The Prime Multiverse contains 99% of all the power in Marvel.

It was never depowered, one can argue it was in fact empowered further,
when we consider new characters that have performed incredible feats,
like Protege, Wanda, Alien Entity, Edifice Rex, Vanguaard, to name a few.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

It's Infinity is limited by the infinity of the larger Omniversal infinity.

But, for the record, the prime Multiverse > rest of the Omniverse. (not in scale, but power)

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

Hence
the DC Infinity of the "single" DC-Multiverse = the Infinity of the Pre-Rectonn Marvel Multiverse = the infinity of the new Marvel Omniverse >>>>>>>> the new Marvel Multiverses?

The infinity of the of the Prime Multiverse has always been the same,
well not exactly,
it went from nigh-infinite in 1983,
to infinite in 1984,
to beyond infinite in 1990.

(this is aside from realities outside the Multiverse,
but still connected to the Marvelverse.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

So we can say that the DC Multiverse (all of DCs Reality)>>>>>>> an Marvel Multiverse (small Part of all Reality).
DC Multiversal threats = Marvels Omniversal Threats >>>>>>> Marvel Multiversal Threats

Simply put, nowadays,

DC = Marvel.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

Well, the Terms are used in different ways by both companies, but who cares

But we were specifying pre-crisis DC to current Marvel,
in which case in size > current Marvel > DC pre-crisis.

Now again,
I believe that nowadays both companies are equal in size,
regardless of terms.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

Could it be that they are the artists and writers from DC?
Since we can't see them, they have no shape,
just an name like TOAA. Though TOAA is alone and they seem to be many.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

If it's so then Overseers >>>> LT, Eternity Infinity,
Thanos with HOTU and Pre-Rectonn Beyonder

Originally posted by Mr Master
Ya. 🙂

No 🙂

Originally posted by Mr Master

DC can have an Omniverse now, that doesn't bother me one bit,
in fact, I've said it before, I wish they cemented that as a fact,
unfortunately the most we've seen is a scientist claim that Supes saved the Omniverse.

Meh, it's enough for me, but many, most actually will call that hyperbole,
since it's a single statement with no illustrated depiction of this "Omniverse."

It wouldn't bother me too, but I prefer the simple Infinite Universe concept, in DCs case, else we will need a thousand more crisises to fix what the writers will do 🙁.

Originally posted by Mr Master

On the other hand I disagree with you
if you're comparing pre-crisis DC's size to Marvel's current.

That depends, you write it yourself, though in an different way, the Marvel Prime Multiverse holds 99% of the Marvel Omniverse power. That DC Multiverse holds 100% of DC power which equals in power and size the current DC Multiverse which, is equal to the Marvel Omniverse, to be fair 😉.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Nah.

In Marvel there are different levels of infinity.

They base this idea on the real world's "Cantor's Theorem,"
mathematician who proved there are indeed, "levels of Infinity."

It's a Theory, and I understand what you try to tell me about the lesser infinity ^^though my statement is still true, infinity x infinity = infinity. The Paradoxon, for this theory isn't mentioned in my example as I don't define the term Infinity except with the word infinity. To make the complicated simple lets say infinity is = 1, between 0 and 1 there is an infinite number of 0,1xxxxx 0,2xxxxxx 0,001xxxx etc. that is the infinity you talk about i assume, the infinity that is limited by it's own infinity, say the limited infinity, the theory marvel uses.

So we have an infinite DC-Verse (in size as empty as it may be) = 1
and
an infinite Marvel-Verse = 1 (maybe not so empty but who cares^^)

DC-Verse is an Multiverse, hence DC Multiverse = 1 (I guess they prefer other theories)

Marvel-Verse is an Omniverse, hence Marvel Omniverse = 1
to simplfy the rest we say that an Megaverse is = 0,1 and an Multiverse = 0,001

DC Multiverse (1) > Marvel Multiverse (0,001)
DC Multiverse >= Marvel Prime Multiverse (in power as you said) (0,9999999999999999....)

DC uses another Theory i guess but in the end they still use their old Pre Crisis Multiverse concept which ist as infinite as the omniverse concept from marvel, THOUGH under its own rules, and theory.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Mr Master

Officially, the Omniverse was introduced into continuity in 92'

Was this before or after Beyonder was rectonned?

Originally posted by Mr Master

I haven't seen anything that proves that yet.

A scan of a face that states it can destroy universes with a shrug surely doesn't.

I haven't seen anything either, i just took the word of the one claiming it, call me naive 😄

Originally posted by Mr Master

It expanded, like I said, by 92' it was official.

Also, as I said, in Marvel, like in the real world,
there are levels of infinity:

=====================================

I'm not surprised, in Marvel, there are different levels of infinity: (omnipotence)

Kubik says,

"Our power is as nothing to the Celestials"

Kosmos replies,

"But Kubik, do we not possess Infinite Power (Omnipotence)

Kubik retorts,

"Yes, Our might is Infinite. But [B]there are Levels of Infinity"

..............................................................

CONTINUES ...

Kubik finishes:

"Thus are demonstrated two levels of infinity,

there are of course, an infinite number more"

=====================================
[/B]

That's Marvel way of handling their infinity which isnt greater nor smaller then the DC infinity.
Or do you think that the Theories Marvel uses for their comics should be forced upon the DC-Verse?
^^

Originally posted by Mr Master

The infinity of the of the Prime Multiverse has always been the same,
well not exactly,
it went from nigh-infinite in 1983,
to infinite in 1984,
to beyond infinite in 1990.

(this is aside from realities outside the Multiverse,
but still connected to the Marvelverse.

So it WAS night infinite in 1983
it WAS infinite in 1984
and it IS beyond infinite (in the Marvel way) since 1990?

I say was because if we would talk about it 1984 it indeed would be infinte and not beyond infinite.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Too much calculating good friend..

Simply put, nowadays,

DC = Marvel.

I guess we agree at least, maybe not in the detail but in the greater sense. 🙂

I also say that Marvel was always = DC as it doesn't matter if one Verse limits or expands itself. If one compares both Verses of companies each one is as infinite as the other.

For example, if Marvel would say that the Marvel verse is just one infinite Universe it would be as infinite as the whole DC Multiverse. 😉

Originally posted by Mr Master

Omniverse specifically translates to "all UniverseS"
whether it's a Multiverse, or Megaverse.

But we were specifying pre-crisis DC to current Marvel,
in which case in size > current Marvel > DC pre-crisis.

Now again,
I believe that nowadays both companies are equal in size,
regardless of terms.

I agree, except that I'm not sure (I can't find the statement in my comic books, I don't have so many, maybe someone else might enlighten me 😉 )that the current DC Multivers is bigger in size then the Pre-Crisis Multiverse

but current MarvelOmniverse = current DC-Multiverse 🙂

Originally posted by Mr Master
Marvel's BeyonderS have never been seen,
and likewise their a race, with just a name,
this doesn't make them writers/artists, in fact, we know they aren't.

Heh, I don't think so.

The Beyonder was drawn and written and named, even limited by himself, and with one the whole race was damned to become one fictional race, that forces the will of it's creators upon the Marvel comics. It's simillar to DC' Presence. The Overseers sound more like TOAA to me.

All were born in the second someone wrote their name, or draw them. All came to be because of the fantasy of RL people. How Supreme they are is open for debate i guess 🙂.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

No 🙂

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

It wouldn't bother me too, but I prefer the simple Infinite Universe concept, in DCs case, else we will need a thousand more crisises to fix what the writers will do.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

That depends, you write it yourself, though in an different way, the Marvel Prime Multiverse holds 99% of the Marvel Omniverse power. That DC Multiverse holds 100% of DC power which equals in power and size the current DC Multiverse which, is equal to the Marvel Omniverse, to be fair

But I'll stick with current Marvel > pre-criss DC in size.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

It's a Theory, and I understand what you try to tell me about the lesser infinity ^^though my statement is still true, infinity x infinity = infinity. The Paradoxon, for this theory isn't mentioned in my example as I don't define the term Infinity except with the word infinity. To make the complicated simple lets say infinity is = 1, between 0 and 1 there is an infinite number of 0,1xxxxx 0,2xxxxxx 0,001xxxx etc. that is the infinity you talk about i assume, the infinity that is limited by it's own infinity, say the limited infinity, the theory marvel uses.

So we have an infinite DC-Verse (in size as empty as it may be) = 1
and
an infinite Marvel-Verse = 1 (maybe not so empty but who cares^^)

DC-Verse is an Multiverse, hence DC Multiverse = 1 (I guess they prefer other theories)

Marvel-Verse is an Omniverse, hence Marvel Omniverse = 1
to simplfy the rest we say that an Megaverse is = 0,1 and an Multiverse = 0,001

DC Multiverse (1) > Marvel Multiverse (0,001)
DC Multiverse >= Marvel Prime Multiverse (in power as you said) (0,9999999999999999....)

DC uses another Theory i guess but in the end they still use their old Pre Crisis Multiverse concept which ist as infinite as the omniverse concept from marvel, THOUGH under its own rules, and theory.

Let's stick to the simple facts.

Marvel has established the concept of different levels of infinity.

It's based on Canotr's Theorem,
a REAL World theory, like Calculus.

This theorem has been acknowledge since the early 1891,
and even Princeton University recognizes it.

................................................................................................................

Georg Cantor - the prestigious PRINCETON University website:

"One of the greatest revolutions in mathematics occurred
when Georg Cantor (1845-1918)
promulgated his theory of transfinite sets."

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/4740.html

................................................................................................................

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

Was this before or after Beyonder was rectonned?

Beyonder was retconned in 1990

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

I haven't seen anything either,
i just took the word of the one claiming it, call me naive

We have many clueless joes runnuing around because of this.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

That's Marvel way of handling their infinity
which isnt greater nor smaller then the DC infinity.

Or do you think that the Theories Marvel uses for their comics
should be forced upon the DC-Verse?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_theorem

Cantor's Theorem:

"The theorem is named for Georg Cantor, who first stated and proved it."

Notice Marvel even literally uses his name on panel.

What DC does with their reality is no concern to me.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

So it WAS night infinite in 1983
it WAS infinite in 1984
and it IS beyond infinite (in the Marvel way) since 1990?

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

I say was because if we would talk about it 1984
it indeed would be infinte and not beyond infinite.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

I guess we agree at least, maybe not in the detail but in the greater sense.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

I also say that Marvel was always = DC as it doesn't matter if one Verse limits or expands itself.
If one compares both Verses of companies each one is as infinite as the other.

For example, if Marvel would say that the Marvel verse is just one infinite Universe it would be as infinite as the whole DC Multiverse.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

I agree, except that I'm not sure (I can't find the statement in my comic books, I don't have so many, maybe someone else might enlighten me)that the current DC Multivers is bigger in size then the Pre-Crisis Multiverse

but current MarvelOmniverse = current DC-Multiverse

Although DC is bigger now, I believe.

Galan knows the details to this.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

The Beyonder was drawn and written and named, even limited by himself, and with one the whole race was damned to become one fictional race, that forces the will of it's creators upon the Marvel comics.

The BeyonderS have never been seen, just like these Overseers.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

It's simillar to DC' Presence. The Overseers sound more like TOAA to me.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

The Beyonder was drawn and written and named, even limited by himself, and with one the whole race was damned to become one fictional race, that forces the will of it's creators upon the Marvel comics.

The BeyonderS have never been seen, just like these Overseers.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

All were born in the second someone wrote their name, or draw them. All came to be because of the fantasy of RL people.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

How Supreme they are is open for debate i guess

If they've never been seen, like Marvel's BeyonderS,
then we'll know what they're capable of based on their creation.
Just like we know the Marvel's BeyonderS are uberdiculous
based on what a Cosmic Cube can do,
and a Cosmic Cube is literally a tiny fraction of their power.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Ya. 🙂

Marvel has established the concept of different levels of infinity.

It's based on Canotr's Theorem,
a REAL World theory, like Calculus.

This theorem has been acknowledge since the early 1891,
and even Princeton University recognizes it.

What DC does with their reality is no concern to me.

Not the Marvel way ... Cantor's Theorem's way. (from the Real World)

So in the end we can say that Marvel uses the Cantor's Theorem, a Real Wolrd Theory (which still is just one Theory, mind you there are a still others 🙂 ) and DC doesn't, which is only legal as we talk about an fictional Universe. Or did DC ever stated that it's Universal concept is based on the mathematical Cantor's Theorem ?

We are still left with the fact:

DC Multiverse = MArvel Omniverse

Oh yes, that reminds me, if TOAA can do everything, could he create a rock so heavy he couldn't lift it?

I bet even then WWH could lift it 😖hifty:

Originally posted by cloud102
The Overseers are on par with The Presence, but that's just one man's opinion.

I don't get it... Guess that's why it's not my list. *shrugs*

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
If I remember correctly, they haven't actually appeared on panel, just reffered to when Adjudicator's history was revealed.

Originally posted by Mr Master
the BeyonderS have had absolutely nothing to do with pre-retcon Beyonder.

The BeyonderS have never been seen, just like these Overseers.

What happend to the Beyonder after he was rectonned? Does he still exist? I mean what is he now, if he has nothing to do with the Beyonders of the Marvel Ominverse?

I hope not an Cosmic cube, cause if the cube is an fraction of the BeyonderS powers he has something to do with them 😉:

So wait, are the Overseers the DC equivalent of the Beyonders?