Funny: Batman or Bush?
Interesting to note: most people in this thread who don't think those themes are there on purpose are liberals who don't support the Bush administration. Shocking coincidence. 😛
The answer is: yes. Of course it's there on purpose.
It's not the main point of the movie or anything, but those questions are raised to be thought about and discussed. I'd say the movie is more about modern America after 9/11 than the war in iraq in particular.
All the points raised in the opening post are valid: Batman is around the law, uses wire-tapping like technology, interrogates through torture (maroni's broken legs, anybody?), and does whatever he has to to get the job done.
I don't think he's meant to represent Bush or his administration, but rather the general American attitude towards terrorism after 9/11. (and let's not pretend that in the first few months when everybody was scared that we weren't all at least halfway thinking: "Do whatever, however to keep us safe."😉
And further, this isn't necessarily presented as a good thing. In fact, it makes Batman look kinda scummy and Luscious Fox is against it. I think that's the Nolan brothers position on things, IMO.
Alfred on the other hand is your John McCain, with his polite but firm "Stay the course" advice about being hated and burning down the village to catch the bandit.
The movie isn't pro-Bush as some would seem to say, but it also is definitely asking some big questions about things behind the comic story and it's all rather obvious. (if you're pro-bush, it's easy to say that he's like batman doing all these things for the greater good and so on, but you'd be remiss to not take the other points into consideration: alot of good people die, close friends and family are destroyed, and you're not better off than you started...which again I think was a clear point of Nolan's.)
You can look at the whole "Escalation" theme and see where just like Batman being in gotham and getting rid of Falcone brought the joker, the US (who I believe Batman stands for) being in Baghdad and getting rid of Saddam only brought more destruction than what was there under Saddam.
But whatever. People see what they want, I guess.
To me:
Joker - Liberals. Full of chaos and doing whatever they want, when they want. Society will be destroyed by legal drugs, prostitution, abortion, gay marriage, polygamy, transsexual men who have babies, etc... and will be a bunch of "civilized people who eat each other." if the libs have their way and America becomes a secular-progressive nation like Holland. Some of the above things are already happening and our country has gotten progressively worse.
Batman- conservatives. Kicking butt and taking names, standing for justice and what's right and decent. What was good and could be again. Belief in people that they do deep down want to do what's right and moral.
😖hifty:
Back at work today. argued more with my boss. In addition to what he said previously, now he is saying that the opening shot of the film (panning forward in Chicago/Gotham until it stops and the window blows out) is a parralel to 9/11. Personally, I just don't believe that's an allusion to current events.
Re: Batman... comparable to George Bush?
Originally posted by SnakeEyes
During the past week or so, I've been telling my boss at work that he needs to see The Dark Knight due to how good it is. He finally saw it, and he asked me "Did you catch the main theme of the movie?" I told him, "Well, yeah, a lot of it dealt with the corruption of man as a whole, etc." And he said "No, no, no."At this point he explained to me how the whole movie paralleled our current war on terrorism (Batman being the Bush Administration, The Joker representing the terrorists in the Middle East). He supported this using the example about how Batman uses the sonar/wire-tapping technique to spy on people in order to catch The Joker, etc. He also used the more general example of how Batman is hated by the public, yet he's doing what he has to (similar to how he views George Bush).
Now my question is: Do you agree that the film was a parallel to the current Bush Administration/the War on Terror, and if so, do you think this was an intentional and/or prominent theme in the movie?
I'd very much appreciate any feedback on this, thanks.
If you look hard enough you can find a political metaphor relating to your personal interests in just about anything. How certain are you that your Boss wasn't being facetious?
I suppose it is a creative correlation that your Boss came up with, but i think the only credence to his metaphor lies in his mind. Many Batman story lines usually have both, heavy political and societal undertones. Unlike many other vigilante's, Batmans' character (or the comic in general) tries to explore more philosophies other than what is right and what is wrong. In the comics, Batman ALWAYS does what it takes to complete his goals, if he believes he is right. The joker IS a terrorist, so, in this regard i don't know what your boss thinks he discovered other than common knowledge.
As for the Sonar gadget. It is very possible that Nolan and company were inspired by the topical issue of wire tapping in it's creation. I would wage, however, if this were the case. It was an isolated inspiration that comes not only from the current issue's of wire tapping, but the age old fear of big brother and the moral questions of how much is to much power. I could be wrong, but i think that Nolan and company were only trying to make a good crime thriller based off of comic characters and not pose any questions that the Batman comics haven't already asked.
Originally posted by SnakeEyesSnakeEyes, this is an interesting topic you brought up. I do think that the parallels are coincidental. I belive there was no intention of having the movie resemble our current war.
I see no reason at all why this topic should be closed. It pertains to the film completely and it is something I'm genuinely interested in.As for the rest of your post, thanks for the contribution, I'd like to hear more opinions.
Originally posted by Quincy
I can see the parallels of your bosses opinion. Although, I'm sure it wasn't the movie makers intentions.
Originally posted by Endrict Nuul
Your boss either thinks too much or is nuts. Tell him, just watch the focking movie and enjoy it for what it is.
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I think your boss took this film waaaaay too seriously. Rather than enjoy the story and entertain himself...he try to find connections with the film and current political events.This has happen before with other films. Land of the Dead is such case, there was also the same theory with Episode III. Heck! Even M. Night's The Village was consider some sorta of a metaphor for modern day america.
I can't change your opinion nor your boss opinion. But I think is time people need to start learning to have some fun.
Stop looking for signs of things everywhere. Connecting 2+2 will give you 4....it will never give you a 8...never...no matter how much philosophy thinking you can come up....
Sure, I'll give you the fact that Harvey Dent say the word "terrorist" but life is always been like that...terrorism didn't begin with 9/11 and it certainly will not end there...
Basically and to the core not directly at you....Stop over analyzing everything and watch the movie.
Again every one skips the fact that in this film a terrorist is killing people by using bombs and broadcasts home made videos of victims tied up, while Batman fights when the people want him to give in. And Alfred (as I said, in the John McCain role) politely but firmly advises him to "stay the course". Fear in the public, wiretapping, torturing for info? (maroni)
Can nobody really see the parallels?
Like I said in my first post (would love some real responses to it, btw), they aren't the main point of the movie or anything, but it is asking us questions about how we've all changed since 9/11. And it's there and not too hard to find.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Again every one skips the fact that in this film a terrorist is killing people by using bombs and broadcasts home made videos of victims tied up, while Batman fights when the people want him to give in. And Alfred (as I said, in the John McCain role) politely but firmly advises him to "stay the course". Fear in the public, wiretapping, torturing for info? (maroni)Can nobody really see the parallels?
Like I said in my first post (would love some real responses to it, btw), they aren't the main point of the movie or anything, but it is asking us questions about how we've all changed since 9/11. And it's there and not too hard to find.
And the Joker hasn't been doing that since his first appearance in issue no.1 in 1940? In the very first issue he murdered people and made threats over the radio! I get the cell-phone set up being a point you guys can bring up, but can the Republican's really be so desperate for inspirational figures in their party that they have to point at a comic book character and claim he represent's their president that can not be re-elected? Desperately searching for themes that don't exist is typically the accusation leved against the intellectual, touchy-feely, "f@ggots" that spend too much time inside their own heads. At the very least, folks like Mr. Limbaugh and the gentleman who wrote the article should realize the hypocrisy of their accusations when the tables are turned and the straw-clutching is their claim against the other side.
And I agree with that. It's not necessarily supposed to be some pro-rebuclican, pro-bush film. It's actually critical of Batman's stance, especially in the character of Lucious Fox.
See my original post:
"It's not the main point of the movie or anything, but those questions are raised to be thought about and discussed. I'd say the movie is more about modern America after 9/11 than the war in iraq in particular.
All the points raised in the opening post are valid: Batman is around the law, uses wire-tapping like technology, interrogates through torture (maroni's broken legs, anybody?), and does whatever he has to to get the job done.
I don't think he's meant to represent Bush or his administration, but rather the general American attitude towards terrorism after 9/11. (and let's not pretend that in the first few months when everybody was scared that we weren't all at least halfway thinking: "Do whatever, however to keep us safe."😉
And further, this isn't necessarily presented as a good thing. In fact, it makes Batman look kinda scummy and Luscious Fox is against it. I think that's the Nolan brothers position on things, IMO.
Alfred on the other hand is your John McCain, with his polite but firm "Stay the course" advice about being hated and burning down the village to catch the bandit.
The movie isn't pro-Bush as some would seem to say, but it also is definitely asking some big questions about things behind the comic story and it's all rather obvious. (if you're pro-bush, it's easy to say that he's like batman doing all these things for the greater good and so on, but you'd be remiss to not take the other points into consideration: alot of good people die, close friends and family are destroyed, and you're not better off than you started...which again I think was a clear point of Nolan's.)
You can look at the whole "Escalation" theme and see where just like Batman being in gotham and getting rid of Falcone brought the joker, the US (who I believe Batman stands for) being in Baghdad and getting rid of Saddam only brought more destruction than what was there under Saddam.
But whatever. People see what they want, I guess."
Originally posted by sithsaber408
And I agree with that. It's not necessarily supposed to be some pro-rebuclican, pro-bush film. It's actually critical of Batman's stance, especially in the character of Lucious Fox.See my original post:
"It's not the main point of the movie or anything, but those questions are raised to be thought about and discussed. I'd say the movie is more about modern America after 9/11 than the war in iraq in particular.
All the points raised in the opening post are valid: Batman is around the law, uses wire-tapping like technology, interrogates through torture (maroni's broken legs, anybody?), and does whatever he has to to get the job done.
I don't think he's meant to represent Bush or his administration, but rather the general American attitude towards terrorism after 9/11. (and let's not pretend that in the first few months when everybody was scared that we weren't all at least halfway thinking: "Do whatever, however to keep us safe."😉
And further, this isn't necessarily presented as a good thing. In fact, it makes Batman look kinda scummy and Luscious Fox is against it. I think that's the Nolan brothers position on things, IMO.
Alfred on the other hand is your John McCain, with his polite but firm "Stay the course" advice about being hated and burning down the village to catch the bandit.
The movie isn't pro-Bush as some would seem to say, but it also is definitely asking some big questions about things behind the comic story and it's all rather obvious. (if you're pro-bush, it's easy to say that he's like batman doing all these things for the greater good and so on, but you'd be remiss to not take the other points into consideration: alot of good people die, close friends and family are destroyed, and you're not better off than you started...which again I think was a clear point of Nolan's.)
You can look at the whole "Escalation" theme and see where just like Batman being in gotham and getting rid of Falcone brought the joker, the US (who I believe Batman stands for) being in Baghdad and getting rid of Saddam only brought more destruction than what was there under Saddam.
But whatever. People see what they want, I guess."
So, you are under the impression that we've had 8 years of Batman as president and are expecting at least 4 more with Alfred Pennyworth? Oh, right Batman is America, but Alfred the butler is John McCain.
Now, as I said, the Joker has been doing all these things for the last 70 years. He's blown things up, killed people, devilverd tapes to news stations, taken over broadcasts, radio addresses, poisoned the water, murdered to make his point and he's been doing it far longer than bin Laden has been alive.
Of course he has.
But you don't find those other inclusions to be a little bit of a....coincidence, I guess? I mean the torture and wiretap stuff? The fear of the populace to give in to what he wants and all that? The whole "stay the course" logic that Alfred has?
Again, I'm saying that first and foremost it's a comic film (the BEST ever, in fact), but also that Nolan is a very talented and intelligent filmaker and I believe that there are quite a few sublte nods to current events/cultural attitudes that are included to provoke thought.
And not necissarily in Bush's favor either. I mean in a more general way.
But to me it's all right there and the thread starters boss and anybody else who picks up on the obvious is right on. In fact, I got that Alfred "Stay the course" bit from the New York Times film review, so apparently others are picking up on it too. (another review, can't remember which, metioned the "escalation" theme and how it compares specifically to the war in iraq, i.e, that our presence may have just made things worse.)
Re: Batman... comparable to George Bush?
Originally posted by SnakeEyes
During the past week or so, I've been telling my boss at work that he needs to see The Dark Knight due to how good it is. He finally saw it, and he asked me "Did you catch the main theme of the movie?" I told him, "Well, yeah, a lot of it dealt with the corruption of man as a whole, etc." And he said "No, no, no."At this point he explained to me how the whole movie paralleled our current war on terrorism (Batman being the Bush Administration, The Joker representing the terrorists in the Middle East). He supported this using the example about how Batman uses the sonar/wire-tapping technique to spy on people in order to catch The Joker, etc. He also used the more general example of how Batman is hated by the public, yet he's doing what he has to (similar to how he views George Bush).
Now my question is: Do you agree that the film was a parallel to the current Bush Administration/the War on Terror, and if so, do you think this was an intentional and/or prominent theme in the movie?
I'd very much appreciate any feedback on this, thanks.
Yeah I have to agree with your boss on this.Those were kinda my thoughts when wacthing this movie.Thats the thing I have always enjoyed about the Nolan Batman movies and always hated about that horrible Burton/Scumacher franchise is the Nolan Batman movies have realism and believeability in them.In real life,Batman would not be able to operate outside the law and take the law into his own hands and kill people and be treated like a hero for it like he was in the Burton films.Where in the Nolan films,its much more realistic and believeable cause he does all these great things like bringing in all these big time criminals but he is STILL wanted by the law which is the way it WOULD be.
But getting back to what your boss said,those were my thoughts as well the way Batman was playing big brother spying on every citizen to get to the joker.Nobody should have that kind of power,yet because of Bush,the us government DOES now and 1984 and what you read about in that novel Brave New World,thats happening right now at this moment thanks to Bush and his designed 9/11 plan.The only difference here is Batman US doing what he has to do and is hated for no good reason at all where Bush is lying to the public about his war on terror and is using it against the people with his wire tapping and everything he has abused so people have good solid reasons to hate Bush and want to see HIM impeached for his crimes.
I very much view this film as a parrallel on Bushs so called war on terrorism.I totally agree with your boss.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Of course he has.But you don't find those other inclusions to be a little bit of a....coincidence, I guess? I mean the torture and wiretap stuff? The fear of the populace to give in to what he wants and all that? The whole "stay the course" logic that Alfred has?
Again, I'm saying that first and foremost it's a comic film (the BEST ever, in fact), but also that Nolan is a very talented and intelligent filmaker and I believe that there are quite a few sublte nods to current events/cultural attitudes that are included to provoke thought.
And not necissarily in Bush's favor either. I mean in a more general way.
But to me it's all right there and the thread starters boss and anybody else who picks up on the obvious is right on. In fact, I got that Alfred "Stay the course" bit from the New York Times film review, so apparently others are picking up on it too. (another review, can't remember which, metioned the "escalation" theme and how it compares specifically to the war in iraq, i.e, that our presence may have just made things worse.)
Yeah, I "get it". I just don't think it's the flag waving madness and intentional Bushgasm you want it to represent. And the reason that so many people who agree with you are in such a joyus twist over it is because you think it clearly represents the good-intentioned, doing it for the people, totally non-malicious and heroic reasons that Batman breaks the law and that in the end Mr. Bush will do the right thing and destroy his illegal machine. You look at it as a validation of everything you've been saying for the last 6 years.
So the more you're telling us that Bush is the Batman who does the right thing and ends up getting hated for it even though he's doing it for our own good does not correspond to your admittance that he's broken the law. Im sorry, but The Joker nor Osama bin Laden are terrorizing us and holding us hostage. Bin Laden is not out for chaos and the only thing stopping him is George Bush swinging from the rooftops. It's an absoultely pathetic attempt to cash in on the publicity and success of a movie in a season when the Republicans are not doing so well. And if it were the democrats who were drawing a comparisson, Mr. Limbaugh would be sitting on his face blowing hard out of his ass telling the world how silly and stupid it really was. So, remember that the next time some neo-con leader casts dispersion on some silly tactic a democrat uses that involves using the brain. They've spent the last year telling us how all these liberal hollywood war movies and television shows have tanked because America can see through the liberal effort to discredit the war on terror, and now they're saying that the most successful movie of the year is really a huge metaphore for the war on terror?
*sighs*
I only said about 5 times that I DON'T think it's about Bush personally or a ringing endorsement of his administration. So stop saying that I do and that there are others "agreeing with you".
I said that I think it's meant to have us ask questions about the country, the feelings in society, and what we've allowed to happen.
I think that the film is in fact criticizing those type of actions (seen by all the death, loss, and destruction in everybody's lives) and that the Nolan's are probablly liberal and against Bush/Iraq/war on terror.
Limbaugh and any others who don't catch that part of the film are simply too dense to realize that the film is showing a critical look at what happens when you have that mentality: people, good people that you care about die and you are outcast. Is it worth it?
In their ignorance, they jump up and down and wave the film as some Bush endorsement, when really it's more of a critique on American society in the last 7 years.