The de-construction of Here Comes Tomorrow ... the final debate!

Started by Mr Master5 pages

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Bottom line:

When Scott changed his mind,
that "Possible" Future (Reality 15104) was nulled/altered.

Nothing more imo..

15104 is just ONE of Countless possible Futures of 616,
nothing more imo.

This is why the BIO clearly states,

"ensuring that At least ONE apocalyptic Future would not come to fruition"

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Every "What if" (which is what "Here Comes Tomorrow" is, basically)
as in "What if Scott left the X-Men and Emma"
can be altered/nulled in the SAME manner.

Go back into 616's Past before the divergence,
and stop whatever occured that created said divergence,
but the "Future" never had to come, because it was happening already 150 years later,
while the Present Reality is happening now, in this continuum called 616.

I mean think about it,
what everything else that's happening? Like 20 years from now, or 52 years from now,
or 1000 years from now, like in that 2099 arc, when events are taking place like 1000 years AFTER HCT's year 2154 setting,
so that Future set 1000 years later and STILL taking place,
was nulled then re-created to accommodate the year 2154 to be taken over by HCT?
And ALL the other stories, involving 616's supposed "Future" between and after HCT?

Now yall see why there is NO 616 Future,
it's just possible Futures, the Future will only be known when it comes.

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Quite simple really.

If yall,
wish to believe "Here Comes Tomorrow"
outweighs ALL the OTHER "possible" FutureS, whatever.

But Marvel has been creating stories set in 616's Future for over 25 years,
and honestly, and no offense to anyone (sincerely)
but to suggest that This particular story is the end all and be all of 616 FutureS,
is in all honesty incorrect imo.

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Any who,

here are several FUTURES that are direct products of 616.

Yea, as in actual "FutureS" of 616,

yes, as in,
if you travel back in time from these Realities, you end up in 616.

Furthermore,
most of these Realities I'll be presenting
[b]have been manipulated and/or altered[/u]
by affecting the MODERN Age of 616 (yes ... as in the Present)

Just like the events of Reality 15104 and Jean.

First off ...

+++ "Here Comes Tomorrow" is just ANOTHER Alternate Reality: +++

(does anyone see anything special/distinguishing next to the title? ... Me neither) 😬

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Is it still a debate if you're just talking to yourself?

😐

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======== Days of Future Past - Earth - 811 (a Future of 616) =======

(Rachel is from the Future ... and came to 616)

Kate/Rachel/PhoenixForce going back and forth in Time (from 616 to the Future)

They literally altered the Future, by their actions in 616:

"The Force followed Rachel BACK to Her TIME (the Future)
the Force possessed Rachel,
and used her power to SEND her BACK to the Earth-616 of the Past,
Ahab, learned of Rachel's TIME TRAVEL and sought to locate her,
Kate/Ahab merged and became Widget,
while Ahab set about preventing any FURTHER REWRITING of what was, for him HISTORY
"

"Soon after,
adult Franklin from Rachel's TIME appeared in the MODERN ERA
(Present) of Earth-616"

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======= Earth - 8410 (the Year 2020 of 616) another Future =======

The Iron-Man of the this Future, travels BACK in TIME (to 616)

to change events in his Future:

"Arno used a Time Machine to seek a retina scan of Saunders' younger self,
ARRIVING in the MODERN ERA of Earth-616,
he only succeeded in scarring the YOUNG Earth-616 Saunders
"

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==== Earth - 928 (the Year 2099 of the 616) another Future ====

"2099's Spider-Man twice encountered the heroes of Earth-616's MODERN AGE,
616's Fujikawa & 2099's Stark-Fujikawa opened temporal rifts,
sending Peter Parker forward into 2099
and Miguel O'Hara BACK nearly 100 YEARS into the PAST
"

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======== Earth - 4935 (the Year 3806 of 616) ========

This Future (in it's entirety) is ALTERED from again,

the MODERN ERA of 616 (Present)

"Christmas Day in 3806 Canaanites consolidate control,
Stryfe fled to Earth-616's MODERN ERA
, (Present)
Tyler was captured by the Canaanites and ... was SENT to the PAST as well"

To the WHAT? ... TO THE PAST!!! (616's Modern Era)

"Nathan ALSO went BACK in Time,
hoping to PREVENT Apocalypse's rule from ever occurring,
ARRIVING Years BEFORE His Birth, he took the name Cable,
Ultimately, Cable destroyed Apocalypse in the PRESENT,
DIVERGING His FUTURE from Earth-616
"

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Hmm ...
Isn't that exactly what Jean did?
(change A Future by affecting Scott on 616?) ... 🙂

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======= Earth-691 (the 31st Century of 616) =======

616 Heroes Time Travel to "the" FUTURE (the Year 3014)

Guardians of the Galaxy Time Travel BACK in Time to Present (616)

"In 3014, Tarin was accidentally SENT BACK to Earth-616's MODERN ERA,
CA/Thing/Sharon Carter accompanied Tarin BACK to her Time,
where they teamed with the Guardians to liberate NYC from the Badoon ...
learning that the Badoon
had staged a failed invasion of Earth in the HEROIC AGE
(616)
the Guardians ...
VIA TIME TRAVEL, visited Earth-616's Modern Era, meeting that era's YOUNG Vance
"

+++++++ Wow, look at that

Vance is literally Young in 616, signifying the direct link between Time periods,
obviously, the GOTG's 31st Century is a direct FUTURE of 616,
but This Future is labeled 691, just like Here Comes Tomorrow" is labeled 15104,
just like ALL "possible" FutureS of 616,
are labeled something other than 616. +++++++

"After erasing young Vance's knowledge of the Guardians and their period,
the Guardians returned to the 31st-Century Earth-691
"

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I guess (actually I knew) this was accurate:

Earth 691 - GOTG: (the 31st Century of the 616 Universe)

"There is a Second that wrestles with Eternity.
A heartbeat forever frozen in the tapestry of Time,
This is such a moment ...

The Year is 3017 A.D in ONE of the MANY Possible Futures of the Multiverse"

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A guess I'll throw in this On Panel proof
to give the above evidence more substance.

Here's the FF traveling to the Future,
what's amazing is, even before they reach the Future,
already there's HUNDREDS of other Diverged FFs mirroring their actions:

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BTW. After they did reach said Future,
the Writer first points out that this is another Dimension,
the Dr Strange of that Future, who has risen to the position of the Ancient One there,
clearly differentiates this Reality as another Dimension:

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This is why I've told yall,
there's an infinite amount of Future Timelines,
because every action that takes place in 616,
is constantly Diverging other selves of the decision maker into other UniverseS.

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It's exactly the reason when a fan asked the Editor's of 2099,
if placing the REAL FF in this Future Timeline,
wouldn't cause a Continuity disaster for the FF on 616 he was replied with ...
actaually, read for yourselves:

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All the Sources that state Here Comes Tomorrow took place an Alternate Future:

NOT a single source states it was first 616, and then became 15104, NOT one!

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First .... I'll post the Handbooks:

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(Here Comes Tomorrow bio - 2005 - Alternate Universes)

"Here Comes Tomorrow" ... Core Continuum Designation: Earth-15104

First appearance: New X-Men #150

(bare in mind, Jean amputated this Timeline's future in NX-M #154)

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(Mkraan Crystal bio - 2007 - Official Marvel Handbook Update)

"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future ... OF ... Reality - 15104"

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Second .... I'll post the officially sponsored Marvel Comic sites:

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(Marvel.com)

http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Bibliography-AZ_Update_1

Scroll down to - (Mkraan Crystal) - near the center of the page:

"Phoenix severed Reality-15104 from rest of multiverse (New X-Men #154, 2004)"

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(Marvunapp)

http://www.marvunapp.com/master/earthfl.htm

Scroll down to - (Earth-Here Comes Tomorrow) - center of the page:

"150 years in the future, Diverged WHEN Scott LEFT the Xavier Institute,
Phoenix/Jean altered time to put Scott and Emma together
and restart the school to prevent this reality-diverged
. X-Men II#154

Earth-15104 - X-Men II#150 ... 150-154"

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Third .... I'll post what the Editor's said about the Here Comes Tomorrow Timeline:

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Evidently, according to the Editor's of this arc, HCT is just another Timeline,
insignificant apparently from their reply to a question:

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During Here Comes Tomorrow,
in the questionnaires to the Writers page,
an individual asks in his 3rd question:

"Are there any more Proud People" ... Those are characters from the arc.

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Look at the answer to his 3rd question:

"Ditto for the Proud People,
though they may be now only a glimmer in the Phoenix's eye
along with the rest of this Timeline
."

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Originally posted by Scoobless
Is it still a debate if you're just talking to yourself?

😐

who knows?

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Fourth ... I'll post the un-official sites that define Comic book stories:

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(MarvelDataBase)

http://en.marveldatabase.com/Earth-15104

"Earth-15104 - First appearance - New X-Men #150

(bare in mind, Jean amputated this Timeline's future in NX-M #154)

"Divergent timeline"

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(MarvelDataBase)

http://en.marveldatabase.com/Category:Earth-15104/Appearances

"Earth-15104/Appearances"

New X-Men - vol 1 - 151 - 154

(they left out #150 ... cause Reality 15104 appears only in the last two pages)

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(MarvelDataBase)

http://en.marveldatabase.com/Jean_Grey_%28Earth-15104%29

"Aliases: Phoenix"

"Universe: Earth-15104"

"Appearances: Here Comes Tomorrow"

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(MarvelDataBase)

http://en.marveldatabase.com/Henry_McCoy#Henry_McCoy_.28Earth-15104.29

Henry McCoy (Earth-15104)

"Phoenix converge and absorbed the entire alternate future into it,
causing it to cease to exist.
She then psychically reached backwards in time to encourage Cyclops to "live",
to accept Emma Frost's love and thus remain at the Institute;
as a result,
the original timeline that led to Sublime's possession of the Beast has been negated."

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(MarvelDataBase)

All the major characters involved in HCT have a mini separate reference here:

http://en.marveldatabase.com/Category:Earth-15104

Logan's (James Howlett) is here: (scroll down to the center of the page)

http://en.marveldatabase.com/James_Howlett#James_Howlett_.28Earth-15104.29

ALL of them .... were from Reality 15104

The Universe they came from (Reality 15104) first appeared in NX-M #150-151

(bare in mind, Jean amputated this Timeline's future in NX-M #154)

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(Wikipedia)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_Comes_Tomorrow

(at the top)

"Handbook of the MU: Alternate Universes
has given the numerical designation of Earth-15104
to the
Here Comes Tomorrow Timeline."

(towards the bottom)

Modern characters referenced:

"[i]Many characters from the modern X-Men/Marvel timeline
were shown
to be alive
or have someone carrying on their legacy in this POSSIBLE Future Timeline."

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Fifth ... I'll post the Here Comes Tomorrow review sites that critique the story:

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(Shaking Through)

http://www.shakingthrough.net/comics/reviews/2004/new_x-men_vol_7_2004.html

Here Comes Tomorrow ...

... "it takes place in a dark Future" ...
... "four-part storyline opens in that distant future" ...
... "E.V.A. is a member of this future's X-Men" ...
... "to prevent this particular future from ever coming to pass" ...

... "In Claremont's Days of Future Past,
the Kitty Pryde of our time is thrust into the alternate future,
and it's through her eyes that we encounter that bleak world.
All of the characters in Here Comes Tomorrow are of its time period,
and consequently
it's as if we've dropped in to their world
" (Reality 15104) "from our own." (616)

... after the whole alternate-future business has already been put to bed ...

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(The X - Axis)

http://thexaxiscom.site.securepod.com/newxmen/newxmen154.htm

"It's difficult to care
particularly about the fate of the characters from this alternate future,
since very few of them were given enough space to develop a personality
".

There's no real sense of what this world might be like to live in,
and consequently none of it feels real.

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(Comicvine)

http://www.comicvine.com/wolverine/29-1440/story-arcs/

Here Comes Tomorrow ... (scroll down to the center of the page)

"Here Comes Tomorrow is an alternate future
in which the sentient bacteria Sublime
."

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(Superhero Database)

http://www.superherodb.com/profile.php?hero=jean.grey

(towards the bottom)

"Jean was then resurrected in the last arc of
New X-Men: "Here Comes Tomorrow", bearing the PF entity once again
"

"This future timeline went wrong
when Scott Summers decided
to decline the offer of Emma Frost
to once again open up Xavier's Institute[/i]."

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(Comicbookshelf)

http://comicbookshelf.com/?rm=detail&id=191

(User Reviews)

"An alternate future storyline to tie up some of Morrison's loose ends."

"The alternate future Morrison creates has an interesting feel to it."

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Well, that's all the necessary info, I threw in my opinion,
but think it through, and perhaps you'll agree or come up with another opinion,
cause that's all this is, and opinion based on the materials presented,
that came from comic book stories I read,
and I encourage others to do so if necessary to formulate a clear, more detailed opinion.

Lastly, imo ....

If "Here Comes Tomorrow" is the "real" Future of 616,
simply because Jean touched Scott in the Present 616
to affect said Future (Here Comes Tomorrow)

Then Marvel has a truck load of "Real" FutureS,
since ALL of my examples revolve around the SAME exact action.
ALL of those stories above involve traveling to the PAST (Present 616)
in order to alter events in different FutureS.

Funny thing is ... I only posted some of them. (there's many more)

meh, and the Cable example is a strong argument,
as he ALTERED his entire FUTURE Reality,
by traveling to the Past
(Present 616) and manipulating events there.

Originally posted by Scoobless

Is it still a debate if you're just talking to yourself?


Originally posted by Raoul

who knows?


I was laying out all my opinions on the matter,
so I don't have to re-post them later,
I've debated this subject with a few individuals prior,
those are all my reasons behind said opinions,
the point was for others to go through them,
or pick a copy of New X-New relevant issues and participate in the debate.

btw. I haven't talked to my self since I was a kid
when I saw aunt lucia in the light at the wrong time. 😛

Originally posted by Raoul
oh my sweet jesus...

Indeed.
Originally posted by Mr Master
the final debate!

What the hell odes any of this have to do with WWH beating Superman though? ... that's the real question.

Originally posted by Scoobless
What the hell odes any of this have to do with WWH beating Superman though? ... that's the real question.

indeed it is...

Dayaaaaaaaaaaayum! To say that u put a loooot of effort and thought into this thread would be an understatement!

Holy shit, very nice work Master!!!!