Originally posted by the ninjak
In a forum fight the Gods will not be allowed to leave and make deals and gather Kryptonite.That would be BFR Battle Field Removal. And would result in instant dismisal.
If it were a film though I see no reason why they couldn't obtain some.
I was hoping someone would point that out.
I agree, but only partially.
Limiting the gods' powers and tools is gimping. It's like removing superman's ability to fly at super speeds because no matter where he flies at super speed, he will quickly BFR. It's like removing a wizard's ability to apparate away to grab a weapon and then apparate back: that's a clear ability and something they do in the movies. It's like removing the jumpers' ability to jump and grab something and then jump back: Griffin was seen doing that as his primary MO in a fight.
So we cannot remove the abilities of other characters just because we think it is a BFR. There's too much fantasy involved in some of these characters. Adding a "BFR" rule to a versus matchup when it would clearly remove some of the tools or resources of another character that they were seen using in them movie is a form of gimping. HOWEVER, I still think the thread starter has the right to call that because it is only an indirect gimp, not direct.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I was hoping someone would point that out.I agree, but only partially.
Limiting the gods' powers and tools is gimping. It's like removing superman's ability to fly at super speeds because no matter where he flies at super speed, he will quickly BFR. It's like removing a wizard's ability to apparate away to grab a weapon and then apparate back: that's a clear ability and something they do in the movies. It's like removing the jumpers' ability to jump and grab something and then jump back: Griffin was seen doing that as his primary MO in a fight.
So we cannot remove the abilities of other characters just because we think it is a BFR. There's too much fantasy involved in some of these characters. Adding a "BFR" rule to a versus matchup when it would clearly remove some of the tools or resources of another character that they were seen using in them movie is a form of gimping. HOWEVER, I still think the thread starter has the right to call that because it is only an indirect gimp, not direct.
Usually in fights involving characters like Superman it is assumed the battlefield is enlarged if high speed flying is involved.
Though Supes wouldn't require such a gimping due to the fact that Routh Supes is fast and strong enough to obliterate the Gods from that film. Not to mention his durability which is wayyyyy beyond what the gods showed.
Though feats like Supes flying around the planet and changing time should be automatic BFRs for obvious reasons.
Supes has every advantage in this fight. Movie Supes has no weakness to magic. And the Gods in the Immortals are much weaker than comic counterparts.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I was hoping someone would point that out.I agree, but only partially.
Limiting the gods' powers and tools is gimping. It's like removing superman's ability to fly at super speeds because no matter where he flies at super speed, he will quickly BFR. It's like removing a wizard's ability to apparate away to grab a weapon and then apparate back: that's a clear ability and something they do in the movies. It's like removing the jumpers' ability to jump and grab something and then jump back: Griffin was seen doing that as his primary MO in a fight.
So we cannot remove the abilities of other characters just because we think it is a BFR. There's too much fantasy involved in some of these characters. Adding a "BFR" rule to a versus matchup when it would clearly remove some of the tools or resources of another character that they were seen using in them movie is a form of gimping. HOWEVER, I still think the thread starter has the right to call that because it is only an indirect gimp, not direct.
I think we should just look at it logically. Superman flying around doesn't stop the actual fight, he's just doing something to defeat them using flight. Likewise a wizard apparating away might be this, depending on what exactly they're doing. As long as the fight continues its fine imo.
But if the Gods have to run away, go make deals with people and gather kryptonite, thats it. The fights over. What, is Superman going to just stand there and wait for them to get back? No, he's going to assume he's won and go bang Lex Lois. The Gods would have to track him down again to fight him again in a new battlefield. Key word: Again. The first fight is over and they lost because they had to run away.
As I understand the BFR rule its only if you can quickly come back and continue fighting that you'r exempt. If you're away for days gathering kryptonite, its pretty hard to say you're still fighting.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I think we should just look at it logically. Superman flying around doesn't stop the actual fight, he's just doing something to defeat them using flight.
I agree. And herein lies the logic of everything else I mentioned and you captured it beautifully.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Likewise a wizard apparating away might be this, depending on what exactly they're doing. As long as the fight continues its fine imo.
I agree. And you also stated this better than I could.
Originally posted by Nephthys
But if the Gods have to run away, go make deals with people and gather kryptonite, thats it. The fights over.
I disagree.
Removing prep time for someone like Ozymandias is a direct gimp: Ozy's biggest ability is his brain.
Likewise, if a character also uses their immense resources to win their fights, removing all of those resources is a massive gimp.
And, damnit, I thought you were going to be supporting my side with those opening comments. 🙁
Originally posted by Nephthys
What, is Superman going to just stand there and wait for them to get back? No, he's going to assume he's won and go bangLexLois. The Gods would have to track him down again to fight him again in a new battlefield. Key word: Again. The first fight is over and they lost because they had to run away.
I agree: and this is why having oracles and seers on your side is super awesome. Do you agree?
Originally posted by Nephthys
As I understand the BFR rule its only if you can quickly come back and continue fighting that you'r exempt. If you're away for days gathering kryptonite, its pretty hard to say you're still fighting.
How about none of the above? How about they simply send their people off to find out?
Originally posted by the ninjak
Usually in fights involving characters like Superman it is assumed the battlefield is enlarged if high speed flying is involved.
Okay, good. In that case, since the god's realm spans a universe, there would be a BFR in the case of going into a different universe.
Originally posted by the ninjak
Though Supes wouldn't require such a gimping due to the fact that Routh Supes is fast and strong enough to obliterate the Gods from that film. Not to mention his durability which is wayyyyy beyond what the gods showed.
Maybe. lol
I haven't even seen the damn films.
Originally posted by the ninjak
Though feats like Supes flying around the planet and changing time should be automatic BFRs for obvious reasons.
I disagree. That's an ability and one he can use.
Originally posted by the ninjak
Supes has every advantage in this fight. Movie Supes has no weakness to magic. And the Gods in the Immortals are much weaker than comic counterparts.
Probably. I'm arguing from a devil's advocate perspective. I just think there are multiple ways to gimp and the "BFR" gimp that people have been trying to use for the last 2 years is one of them.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree. And herein lies the logic of everything else I mentioned and you captured it beautifully.I agree. And you also stated this better than I could.
Yes, your praise pleases me.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree.Removing prep time for someone like Ozymandias is a direct gimp: Ozy's biggest ability is his brain.
It's not a direct gimp at all. 😬
While Ozy's brain is very big, he's hardly useless without the ability to prepare himself. If theres a sitaution where the only way he could win would be prep, like vs Doc Manhatten, then you might be able to argue a 'gimp'. But the purpose of this forum is to determine which character can defeat another, mainly in combat. It is entirely up to the thread starter whether a character should recieve prep time or not, using their own disgression about whether the thread warrants it. If you don't like the way an OP has 'gimped' a character, just don't post, or make your own thread.
Besides which, Ozy's only shown prep over years against Manhatten, an individual he extensively studied. I doubt he could replicate anything similar in a regular forum match.
In fact, Ozy never successfully utilised prep time against a single opponent.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Likewise, if a character also uses their immense resources to win their fights, removing all of those resources is a massive gimp.And, damnit, I thought you were going to be supporting my side with those opening comments. 🙁
I completely disagree. By that logic Captain America should beat Wolverine because he has the US military on his side. Or Voldemort should be able to apparate away and call his Death Eaters in every fight. Hitler from Inglorious Basterds would be able to beat Spiderman because he has the entire Thrid Reich on his side. You are warping the entire point of these versus fights. All we want to do is debate about who can beat who in a fight. You (In the vein of the late, great RJ) are making this much too complicated in an absurd way to win.
Unless stated, the fight should solely be against the characters in the thread, unless theres some obvious way in which a populace would factor in, such as zombie threads.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree: and this is why having oracles and seers on your side is super awesome. Do you agree?
Not really. Whats this about seers? Are you agreeing with me or not?
Originally posted by dadudemon
How about none of the above? How about they simply send their people off to find out?
Are they still fighting Superman?
Because it sounds like you're arguing that the Gods will run away from their fight against Superman, somehow find out about his weakness to kryptonite, send out their agents to gather kyrptonite and then find Superman again and surprise him with the kryptonite and kill him.
Well when you put it like that of coooourse they can beat Superman. He's nooooo match for them. 🙄
Originally posted by dadudemon
Probably. I'm arguing from a devil's advocate perspective. I just think there are multiple ways to gimp and the "BFR" gimp that people have been trying to use for the last 2 years is one of them.
So you're not actually arguing the above seriously? Great.
Though I personally think this forum is obsessed with this idea of 'gimping' fights. If you don't think a fight is fair, whine about it, but don't think you can or should change forum policy just because you don't like it.
I disagree with all this "gimping" talk. The conditions are up to the OP. If the "gimped" character loses, then he is only inferior under those conditions. There is nothing wrong with "gimping". It's about finding out how each character would fare in certain conditions.
If people want to discuss how Ozymandias fares in a unarmed fight against Batman, then its up to them. It's silly to jump in and say the discussion is somehow invalid because Ozymandias isn't allowed to use prep.
People only resort to the "gimp" complaint if they know the character they are supporting loses under the set conditions and for some reason they are uncomfortable with that.
The only time I find "gimping" is an issue is if the OP does it in spite and then pretends that "gimped character" is overall inferior while not acknowledging that they only lose in those conditions.
Take a visit to the Comics Vs forum, almost all of the characters are "gimped" in one way or another.
If after all that you still can't accept the discussion, just say: "my character would lose without prep, but would win with prep". Easy. Start another thread.
Originally posted by Placidity
I disagree with all this "gimping" talk.
I don't think you do.
Originally posted by Placidity
The conditions are up to the OP.
I already said that:
Originally posted by dadudemon
HOWEVER, I still think the thread starter has the right to call that
Originally posted by Placidity
There is nothing wrong with "gimping".
Other than it being against unofficial rules set by Impediment...
If a thread is gimped too far, Imp has and can close the thread.
Originally posted by Placidity
It's about finding out how each character would fare in certain conditions.
Sometimes. But not always. Most of the time, it is matching up one character against another to see who wins.
Originally posted by Placidity
If people want to discuss how Ozymandias fares in a unarmed fight against Batman, then its up to them. It's silly to jump in and say the discussion is somehow invalid because Ozymandias isn't allowed to use prep.
Incorrect: the silly thing is to ignore the defining abilities from each character in an opening post because you want to gimp someone. OR...to forget about major abilities of another character to gimp the.
All powers and abilities should be taken into consideration when creating the OP. You should design your OP to include all powers and abilities. To do so otherwise is gimping.
Originally posted by Placidity
People only resort to the "gimp" complaint if they know the character they are supporting loses under the set conditions and for some reason they are uncomfortable with that.
Incorrect: people use gimp when there's a gimp. Keep in mind that the majority have used gimp, from day 1, against posters like RJ for designing threads that favored one over the other.
Originally posted by Placidity
The only time I find "gimping" is an issue is if the OP does it in spite and then pretends that "gimped character" is overall inferior while not acknowledging that they only lose in those conditions.
That may be your way but it is not the ONLY way. Someone can accidentally gimp. I have done that, before. (Like forgetting to include weapons they commonly use.) Someone can indirectly gimp (such as the example of limiting a masterminding super genius from being able to mastermind anything). Then there's direct gimping which is the most common.
Originally posted by Placidity
Take a visit to the Comics Vs forum, almost all of the characters are "gimped" in one way or another.
I do and on a regular basis. I do not comment in there because it is mostly shit I do not like, conversations that are not interesting, or versus matchups that have clear winners.
Originally posted by Placidity
If after all that you still can't accept the discussion, just say: "my character would lose without prep, but would win with prep". Easy. Start another thread.
I agree. But you have to get that cleared with Imp or he will close the thread: it's a duplicate.
In conclusion, you actually do agree with me.
Originally posted by Nephthys
It's not a direct gimp at all. 😬While Ozy's brain is very big, he's hardly useless without the ability to prepare himself. If theres a sitaution where the only way he could win would be prep, like vs Doc Manhatten, then you might be able to argue a 'gimp'. But the purpose of this forum is to determine which character can defeat another, mainly in combat. It is entirely up to the thread starter whether a character should recieve prep time or not, using their own disgression about whether the thread warrants it. If you don't like the way an OP has 'gimped' a character, just don't post, or make your own thread.
I disagree, yet again, concerning Ozy.
Everything he does has something to do with how intelligent he is. Even his hand 2 hand fighting ability is due to how awesome his brain is. Also, I already said it should be up to the thread starter, so we are just saying the same thing with slightly different takes.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Besides which, Ozy's only shown prep over years against Manhatten, an individual he extensively studied. I doubt he could replicate anything similar in a regular forum match.
Don't forget his H2H combat ability (which relies on his ability to predict what they will do...with his big ass brain), don't forget his calculation of how everyone else would fit into the team, as well. I doubt he couldn't replicate massive planning against any character in any matchup: that's Ozy's MO. But this is not about Ozy: this is about gimping people like Ozy by removing his ability to plan.
Originally posted by Nephthys
In fact, Ozy never successfully utilised prep time against a single opponent.
Actually, Ozy succeeded in his prep against every single opponent. The only "fail" that can be seen, on his part, is not accounting for Manhattan's ability to reform. Regardless, that turned out to be a win in the end.
Get the former team to recognize that his plan was the best: check.
Eliminate the Comedian, who would have foiled his plans: check.
Become the world's most successful businessman: check.
Intimidate peer businessmen and blackmail them with threats of buying them out: check.
Fake assassination attempt: check.
Anticipate every move from Owl and Rorschach: 90% check. He didn't count on Rorschach sending his journal BEFORE going to the his hideout. But everything else, he planned for, flawlessly.
Predict Manhattan's motives and detect his lying to manipulate him into doing what he wanted: check.
Play off of Manhattan's attachment to HotStuff: check.
I'm having a hard time seeing where Ozy failed to plan for anything besides one or 2 things.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I completely disagree. By that logic Captain America should beat Wolverine because he has the US military on his side.
Actually, you don't disagree. The difference between the gods and Captain is CA couldn't order the US military around to do his bidding. That's a non sequitur comparison.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Or Voldemort should be able to apparate away and call his Death Eaters in every fight.
Why not? That was a clear ability seen by Voldemort: he CAN call them with his magical "skull face in the sky" call. Then there's that marking on their wrist, too. Then there's the curse on his name.
Remove his ability to use his subordinates, you gimp him. Just like any magical commander with people under his control. It's like taking away all of Sauron's minions or his ability to use them. WTF? Why?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Hitler from Inglorious Basterds would be able to beat Spiderman because he has the entire Thrid Reich on his side.
Correct. But that thread would be closed because it is spite.
However, allow Hitler control of some of his forces (not all..because that could be spite, as well) then maybe we would have a legit thread. Like I said, it would be up to the OP and clear gimp threads would be closed by the boss.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You are warping the entire point of these versus fights.
I disagree. You're proving my point, not showing how I'm warping it. I think you agree with my point, entirely, but just don't realize it (no, this is not me saying something smartass or trying to make you angry: I honestly believe you agree with me but don't realize how much you do).
Originally posted by Nephthys
All we want to do is debate about who can beat who in a fight. You (In the vein of the late, great RJ) are making this much too complicated in an absurd way to win.
Actually, you're incorrect. Not all threads are about who can beat who in a fight. Additionally, RJ didn't overcomplicate things: he did the opposite and was accused, left and right, of gimping the shit out of people. I'm arguing the opposite of what you thought RJ did. I'm arguing that OPs should be constructed most carefully (like the way Placidity does his threads: his are always the most carefully done and he never gimps. I think Ninjak does a damn good job, too).
Originally posted by Nephthys
Unless stated, the fight should solely be against the characters in the thread, unless theres some obvious way in which a populace would factor in, such as zombie threads.
I agree. It should be up to the OP unless it is obvious gimping. I'm arguing for the less obvious gimping such as removing the resources or abilities from a character in your OP (I used removing Ozy's ability for prep as an example). I don't like indirect gimps, either. I want all abilities of each character to be fully expressed...that includes dark magical commanders, as well. lol
Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really. Whats this about seers? Are you agreeing with me or not?
I am. I am saying your points are valid which is why the gods would need their oracles and seers to help even the odds.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Are they still fighting Superman?Because it sounds like you're arguing that the Gods will run away from their fight against Superman, somehow find out about his weakness to kryptonite, send out their agents to gather kyrptonite and then find Superman again and surprise him with the kryptonite and kill him.
Well when you put it like that [b]of coooourse
they can beat Superman. He's nooooo match for them. 🙄[/B]
No, I'm saying that they would consult their oracles or seers before making such a drastic decision, realize that they would need Krypto and bring it to the fight.
Originally posted by Nephthys
So you're not actually arguing the above seriously? Great.Though I personally think this forum is obsessed with this idea of 'gimping' fights. If you don't think a fight is fair, whine about it, but don't think you can or should change forum policy just because you don't like it.
I'm not sure how you got "not seriously" from those words. There's a difference from showing others why there are more than one way to gimp versus joking a shit ton about stupid stuff.
I am the one obsessed with not gimping. I don't like gimps. I think people don't realize that they can gimp any character at any moment and not realize it.
And the "no gimping" policy already exists. No one has to invent it.
If someone creates a thread, like so:
"Ozy vs. Captain America
Ozy gets his suit and armor. Blade gets his sword and glasses.
No prep time for either character.
The fight takes place in the warehouse that BigDaddy cleaned out: all props are there. They start at opposite ends on the ground floor."
I would automatically whine and cry about both characters being gimped. Ozy doesn't get to think about his actions beforehand nor does he get to study his enemy. By the end of the movie, CA also planned ahead and thought about his actions before taking them: he was like a detective. If neither party gets at least 30 minutes of prep and research on the other, then I will cry "indirect gimp". I would change my mind if someone pointed out that they wanted to test their combat improvisation against the other. Then I would say, "well, okay...in that case...it's fine. But it's still a gimp because you've removed the ability to think before they act for both parties."
Originally posted by Placidity
I disagree with all this "gimping" talk. The conditions are up to the OP. If the "gimped" character loses, then he is only inferior under those conditions. There is nothing wrong with "gimping". It's about finding out how each character would fare in certain conditions.If people want to discuss how Ozymandias fares in a unarmed fight against Batman, then its up to them. It's silly to jump in and say the discussion is somehow invalid because Ozymandias isn't allowed to use prep.
People only resort to the "gimp" complaint if they know the character they are supporting loses under the set conditions and for some reason they are uncomfortable with that.
The only time I find "gimping" is an issue is if the OP does it in spite and then pretends that "gimped character" is overall inferior while not acknowledging that they only lose in those conditions.
Take a visit to the Comics Vs forum, almost all of the characters are "gimped" in one way or another.
If after all that you still can't accept the discussion, just say: "my character would lose without prep, but would win with prep". Easy. Start another thread.
Well I disagree with your position on this.
Particularly about the bit about 'the only people who object are losing' bit.
I myself have had to call people out for it.
Either its a fair match, with no character attributes changed to suit a pre decided outcome, or its pointless.
Annie Wilkes from Misery could beat Professor X from Xmen, for example, if only Wilkes can use full displayed abilities, yet Proffesor X isnt allowed to use his powers......we all know that.
Sure..Forrest gump could kill Superman.
(If Superman is wearing a Krytonite suit, cannot fly and cannot use any non human abilities.)
We dont need threads to tell us that.
A thread should exist to discuss the likelihood of a full power Wilkes succeeding against a full powered Prof.X....
So no, its not about anyone using that cause they "lost" a debate:
People resort to the gimp complaint when people are lowering the standards of and room for debate with stupid, unfair contests.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
People resort to the gimp complaint when people are lowering the standards of and room for debate with stupid, unfair contests.
My posts still stands, although this is another possibility I would agree with regarding when "gimping" is unhelpful:
"Gimping" would also be an "issue" when the OP does it intentionally, or misjudges the equality of the match-up. However, it is about whether there can be a meaningful discussion about the fight, not at all about "fairness".
While you disagree with me, am I right to assume you take a different stance to DDM? I mean you would agree a prepless fight between Ozymandias and Batman is perfectly valid?
The reason I tend to think people complain because they are uncomfortable with a character losing is because often the conditions do give each opponent a chance to win, but they lose simply because they are beaten by a superior opponent. Then they want to argue that limiting a certain attribute is "unfair", when if given that attribute the fight would actually be a spite thread or pointless. That and they get very emotional.
Basically this is how I see it:
"Valid Limiting Gimping":
* Set conditions where on face value, both opponents have a chance to win.
* It DOES NOT matter that important attributes of a character is being limited given the first point still holds true. (E.g Hulk vs. Superman w/o Superspeed, Flight, Heat Vision, Ice Breath).
"Pointless Gimping":
*Set conditions where it makes a winner obvious. There is little to discuss - it is pointless. (e.g Wolverine vs Professor X w/o telepathy).
* Sometimes done unintentionally
* Sometimes done in spite
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Annie Wilkes from Misery could beat Professor X from Xmen, for example, if only Wilkes can use full displayed abilities, yet Proffesor X isnt allowed to use his powers......we all know that.
Sure..Forrest gump could kill Superman.
That would fall under "Pointless Gimping". Obviously it was done intentionally and to the extreme in this example (which I have not seen on the forums unless its a joke thread, and theres not one thread like that on the first page atm so this is a rare event). It is pointless, but the proper response would be to point out its pointless and not get emotional (see it all the time), and then make your own thread with proper conditions. And yes, people usually only get emotional when the characters they support are in question. If it was Professor X vs Cyclops people would just laugh it off. If it was McClane vs someone else, well the mudslinging kicks in real fast.
Originally posted by NemeBroThis is the kind of human being you've always been a tattle tale. Just because I win a debate don't get upset. learn from it. Grow. 🙂
Yeah... You're obviously trolling.Reported. 🙂
Originally posted by RobtardI am citing how they reacted in their own movie. That isn't taking their powerset and arguing however I want it's taking a battle scenario and what they are capable of as in what I saw in the movie and working with it there.
Again you're scripting out a little scenarios of the gods taking on human form and having all the time(ie prep) needed to deduce that Superman has a weakness to kryptonite and then they'd find some. Scripting doesn't fly here. You fail again, snowball.He's wasn't weakened by kryptonite in that scene in Superman 2, he was effectively turned human by his own doing. Really, watch the film and stop embarrassing yourself. Moving on.
Greatest feats is what we debate by. Accept it and move on. Stop trying to down-play who you want to lose and boost who you want to win. Greatest feats for all, follow it.
You've already inadvertently stated that the Immortals gods have no chance against Superman in a Vs fight and you need to script out little silly scenarios so they can win; you effectively concede the Vs match, man-up to it, clowny.
Not my fault you didn't see the movie, sport.
He was affected by k-nite in superman returns and crushed by random street thugs including Luthor. LOL. It's the same Superman but yes in a diner he gets stomped because he gave up his powers because he's weak.
Superman isn't fast enough in combat to do the things you are saying. In combat he can move fast but can struggle with trucks and knocked back and hurt by manhole covers. What a badass.
I said in a movie vs. movie battle and the Immortals clearly not only win but stomp the Superman films. It isn't even close.
Originally posted by dadudemonYou seem to have a good grasp on debating and are pretty fair. Robbie and others seem too biased and ignorant most of the time. I feel most of these posts are to increase their post count. Maybe they will change.
That bassturd. I dislike it when people do that. At least see the movie (or read the comic book) before weighing in on a versus. That's just how I feel/roll, mang.Surely not?
Edit - And the following vid clearly shows why Superman's fighting speed is too slow meaning he'll get beaten down by a Titan or God from Immortals:
Originally posted by quanchi112
I am citing how they reacted in their own movie. That isn't taking their powerset and arguing however I want it's taking a battle scenario and what they are capable of as in what I saw in the movie and working with it there.Not my fault you didn't see the movie, sport.
He was affected by k-nite in superman returns and crushed by random street thugs including Luthor. LOL. It's the same Superman but yes in a diner he gets stomped because he gave up his powers because he's weak.
Superman isn't fast enough in combat to do the things you are saying. In combat he can move fast but can struggle with trucks and knocked back and hurt by manhole covers. What a badass.
I said in a movie vs. movie battle and the Immortals clearly not only win but stomp the Superman films. It isn't even close.
Incorrect, you're scripting and saying there will be a scenario where the Immortals will both discover that Superman has a weakness and be able to find it. Scripting and giving unlimited prep, it's the only way the Immortals have a chance, you inadvertently said as much and are now trying to backpedal.
Incorrect again. I've not only seen Immortals, I own it and can look into it for reference purposes anytime I want; all for free. While you paid to go see the shitty movie twice; why you're so bitter with life. Condolences.
Again, if you paid attention you'd have noticed that he was weakened enough to be beaten down by thugs because he was literally surrounded by kryptonite; the Immortals won't be able to get that much kyptonite (if any). Superman with a shard of kryptonite in him was still able to lift an island(made in part of kryptonite) from sea-level to orbit in about a minute and still durable enough to survive a drop from outer atmospheric heights. ie the Immortals can't even harm a weakened Superman; they would need an island of kryptoniteto have a chance.
Once again you're ignoring greatest feats for Superman and going with his worst showings while maxing out the Immortals. Try to have a little objectivity, you're embarrassing yourself again.
Yet you're unable to prove one of your points; just fanboy the Immortals and downplay Superman. See above concerning objectivity. Go make the Immortals Vs Superman thread, this is not the proper place; stop crying FFS.
Originally posted by Placidity
While you disagree with me, am I right to assume you take a different stance to DDM? I mean you would agree a prepless fight between Ozymandias and Batman is perfectly valid?
That question is poorly formed, actually. I have already stated that fights are doable like that (I said it was up the the thread starter) and that's a good matchup because it is an equally pressng gimp for both characters (because both love their prep...I'd say Ozy more than movie Batman (but not comic batman)). However, it is still a gimp to two of the best non-God level planners.
Originally posted by Placidity
[b]"Valid Limiting Gimping":* Set conditions where on face value, both opponents have a chance to win.
* It DOES NOT matter that important attributes of a character is being limited given the first point still holds true. (E.g Hulk vs. Superman w/o Superspeed, Flight, Heat Vision, Ice Breath). [/B]
Dude...removing that many super-abilities from Superman is crazy stupid gimping. How in the world would that even fly (pun) without getting the immediate close?
Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree, yet again, concerning Ozy.Everything he does has something to do with how intelligent he is. Even his hand 2 hand fighting ability is due to how awesome his brain is. Also, I already said it should be up to the thread starter, so we are just saying the same thing with slightly different takes.
I don't see how this strictly disagrees with me on the subject of Ozymandius. Not letting him have prep does not take away all of his intelligence or something. He can still use his brain in a fight. You seem to agree with me that he is hardly crippled without prep.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Don't forget his H2H combat ability (which relies on his ability to predict what they will do...with his big ass brain), don't forget his calculation of how everyone else would fit into the team, as well. I doubt he couldn't replicate massive planning against any character in any matchup: that's Ozy's MO. But this is not about Ozy: this is about gimping people like Ozy by removing his ability to plan.
Eh, I don't recall him predicting what an opponent would do in H2H. He just outfought them.
What do you mean, how everyone would fit into the team?
Originally posted by dadudemon
Actually, Ozy succeeded in his prep against every single opponent. The only "fail" that can be seen, on his part, is not accounting for Manhattan's ability to reform. Regardless, that turned out to be a win in the end.Get the former team to recognize that his plan was the best: check.
Eliminate the Comedian, who would have foiled his plans: check.
Become the world's most successful businessman: check.
Intimidate peer businessmen and blackmail them with threats of buying them out: check.
Fake assassination attempt: check.
Anticipate every move from Owl and Rorschach: 90% check. He didn't count on Rorschach sending his journal BEFORE going to the his hideout. But everything else, he planned for, flawlessly.
Predict Manhattan's motives and detect his lying to manipulate him into doing what he wanted: check.
Play off of Manhattan's attachment to HotStuff: check.
I'm having a hard time seeing where Ozy failed to plan for anything besides one or 2 things.
That is planning, not prep. He never utilised prep to defeat anyone. That is, he didn't actually prepare anything to deal with his opponents except against Manhatten. He didn't for example, poison the Comedian. He just kicked in his door and kicked the shit out of him. He didn't use any preperation to defeat Rorscach and Nite Owl, he just beat them up. He didn't use prep against Silk Spectre, he caught a bullet. The only one that he actually used prep against was Manhatten, which failed, and was reliant on the fact that Ozy had years to study Manhatten.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Actually, you don't disagree. The difference between the gods and Captain is CA couldn't order the US military around to do his bidding. That's a non sequitur comparison.
Captain was a captain, right? He could give them orders if he wanted, at least the division who fought Hydra with him.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Why not?
Because its completely against the reason we have these versus fights.
Originally posted by dadudemon
That was a clear ability seen by Voldemort: he CAN call them with his magical "skull face in the sky" call. Then there's that marking on their wrist, too. Then there's the curse on his name.
The thread says 'Voldemort vs', not 'Voldemort and the Death Eaters vs'. It would be against the rules about maximum combatants allowed in a thread, unless the other side is also a group/army. But if its just Voldemort vs another person (i.e. Gandalf or something) then it would be blatantly against the rules to allow him to summon his Death Eaters.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Remove his ability to use his subordinates, you gimp him. Just like any magical commander with people under his control. It's like taking away all of Sauron's minions or his ability to use them. WTF? Why?
Well for one thing it would be spite. Unless the thread was specifically tailored with Voldemort having all of his Death Eaters on his side, or Sauron and all his orcs, then it would just be ridiculous to actually allow him to use them and expect the thread to continue.
Secondly, it is not gimping him. Last time I checked armies do not count as standard gear. We wouldn't be arguing about Sauron and his forces, but rather Sauron himself. Unless actually an army thread, this forum isn't for deciding which character's army is better. The threads are for the characters themselves.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Correct. But that thread would be closed because it is spite.However, allow Hitler control of some of his forces (not all..because that could be spite, as well) then maybe we would have a legit thread. Like I said, it would be up to the OP and clear gimp threads would be closed by the boss.
It was an example. Giving Hitler his Third reich would not prove that he can beat Spiderman. It would prove that the Third Reich can beat Spiderman. It would be completely against the point of making that thread in the first place.
Again, this is merely an example. This applies to every case. Having a Voldemort vs Gandalf fight and allowing Voldemort to call his Death Eaters doesn't demonstrate that Voldemort is the superior combatant in anyway. What would even be the point of that thread?
Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree. You're proving my point, not showing how I'm warping it. I think you agree with my point, entirely, but just don't realize it (no, this is not me saying something smartass or trying to make you angry: I honestly believe you agree with me but don't realize how much you do).
My point is that you need to get over this absurd idea about 'gimping'. Not giving a character an army is not a gimp. Not giving them time to prepare is not a gimp. Get over it.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Actually, you're incorrect. Not all threads are about who can beat who in a fight. Additionally, RJ didn't overcomplicate things: he did the opposite and was accused, left and right, of gimping the shit out of people. I'm arguing the opposite of what you thought RJ did. I'm arguing that OPs should be constructed most carefully (like the way Placidity does his threads: his are always the most carefully done and he never gimps. I think Ninjak does a damn good job, too).
I agree. Some people behaved like children in threads regarding him. I regret that I can't confidently say that I was not one of them. However he was not some martyr who was above such things. Remember the Hall of Prophecy? God that was annoying.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree. It should be up to the OP unless it is obvious gimping. I'm arguing for the less obvious gimping such as removing the resources or abilities from a character in your OP (I used removing Ozy's ability for prep as an example). I don't like indirect gimps, either. I want all abilities of each character to be fully expressed...that includes dark magical commanders, as well. lol
I don't think there are such things as indirect gimps. In the case we were originally talking about, I don't feel that it was a gimp not to allow the Gods access to prep time or their followers. The actual hypothetical fight was spite, obviously, but I had no problem with them simply being there and not having access to such thing.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I am. I am saying your points are valid which is why the gods would need their oracles and seers to help even the odds.
I do not think that they would be gimped by not giving them access to such things.
Originally posted by dadudemon
No, I'm saying that they would consult their oracles or seers before making such a drastic decision, realize that they would need Krypto and bring it to the fight.
And I would say bullshit. Firstly that assumes that they have foreknowledge of the fight, aka, that they had prep. And secondly that assumes they could actually get their hands on kryptonite.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I'm not sure how you got "not seriously" from those words. There's a difference from showing others why there are more than one way to gimp versus joking a shit ton about stupid stuff.
When you are playing devils advocate it means that you don't necessarily believe the argument that you're using and that you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. No offense, but this took a while to write up, so if you're just arguing to kill some time, kill someone elses.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I am the one obsessed with not gimping. I don't like gimps. I think people don't realize that they can gimp any character at any moment and not realize it.And the "no gimping" policy already exists. No one has to invent it.
Well I don't agree with your concept of 'gimping'. I think its just whining and making threads needlessly annoying and complicated.
Really? I can't seem to find that rule in the Movie Versus Forum rules anywhere. Care to point it out? Kekekeke.