Originally posted by Ordained
i looked at it and they are really powerful. to bad one is crazy and the other's evil. and why is there so much fuss over phoenix if there's others out ther who could kill her a thousand times a second?
Because the Phoenix is a fundamental force of the universe. She is the spark that initiates the big bang, but not the big bang itself. Without her, the universe would theoretically wither away into nothing without being reborn.
However, her status doesn't have anything to do with her power level. There are several beings not as important who are more powerful than her.
Originally posted by OrdainedLike Celestial said, Phoenix is essential to the universe.
i looked at it and they are really powerful. to bad one is crazy and the other's evil. and why is there so much fuss over phoenix if there's others out ther who could kill her a thousand times a second?
Although Merlyn himself, the Omniversal Guardian, considered MJJ to be a major threat.
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Mad Jim Jaspers can erase the entire Omniverse.
No he cant. A precog saw in a future timeline that he could destroy the omniverse. The details of how that would come to play were never defined.
We can only go by what hes done on panel. That is warp planet Earth as stated on panel and get beat by the Fury. 😬
Originally posted by celestialdemon
Because the Phoenix is a fundamental force of the universe. She is the spark that initiates the big bang, but not the big bang itself. Without her, the universe would theoretically wither away into nothing without being reborn.However, her status doesn't have anything to do with her power level. There are several beings not as important who are more powerful than her.
The Phoenix Force is the Big Bang itself and triggers the creation cycle according to several writers interpretations.
However there is more to the Phoenix than what you see at a universal level(i.e the life force of reality).
There is the Phoenix Consciousness of the White Hot Room from where all Phoenix manifestations stem.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Phoenix Force is the Big Bang itself and triggers the creation cycle according to several writers interpretations.However there is more to the Phoenix than what you see at a universal level(i.e the life force of reality).
There is the Phoenix Consciousness of the White Hot Room from where all Phoenix manifestations stem.
Where does it say she is the big bang itself? All I've ever seen it said on panel is she is the spark. If you have something that says otherwise, please post it.
Originally posted by celestialdemon
Where does it say she is the big bang itself? All I've ever seen it said on panel is she is the spark. If you have something that says otherwise, please post it.
The Phoenix Force is the energies of creation that give birth to reality:
"Galactus was transformed by the energies of creation itself...Call it the Big Bang or the Phoenix Force or what have you"
It is literally the Big Bang turned sentient.
Its manifestation within reality(the Firebird avatar) keeps the creation cycle revolving:
All life derives from the Force:
"All that is i am"
"Nothing lives that is not touched by a part of me"
"The stars are my children"
Confirming the fact that the energy of creation derives from the Phoenix Force.
Kubik the Cosmic Cube being talks of how all life comes from the stars:
He then says how the well from which the stars draw their energy from sometimes ignites as Dark Phoenix. Further confirming the Phoenix Force as the source of all life energy for the marvel universe:
So not only is the Phoenix Force the sentient energies of creation, but its avatar within reality ensures its own "death" and rebirth.
None of those scans specifically mention her as being the big bang itself, except for the first one, and that is an origin of Galactus that goes against the other multiple origin showings of him.
The second scan simply shows the PF stating how she came into being, which was from the big bang.
The Watcher in the third mentions the PF being the spark that ignites creation, which I agree with, but again doesn't say big bang.
The rest of the scans just mention how the PF is the fuel of creation, which again I will agree with.
Ultimately, none of this proves power, only function. I'm not arguing that the PF doesn't have the power to destroy creation. That's it's whole purpose. However, that doesn't make Jean the most powerful mutant.
Originally posted by celestialdemon
None of those scans specifically mention her as being the big bang itself, except for the first one, and that is an origin of Galactus that goes against the other multiple origin showings of him.
This doesn't contradict the other origins at all. It doesn't totally re-write what came before it adds more detail.
The Phoenix Force by canon is the life force of reality, the energies of creation. The previous Galactus origins stated that Galactus developed with Eternity within the Cosmic Egg and was transformed by the energies of creation.
This issue of Fantastic Four doesn't change that, its just verifying the point that the PF is the energies of creation within Marvel. That isnt a change to Galactus' origin, its clarification.
Originally posted by celestialdemon
The second scan simply shows the PF stating how she came into being, which was from the big bang.
The second scan illustrates the point that the Phoenix is the Big Bang made sentient. You have the the Big Bang depicted on panel and the Phoenix Force illustrated as its energies.
That coincides with Reeds comments in the F4 scan.
The Phoenix is the ambient energies of reality. During the creation cycle it acts within reality through avatars who help restart the cycle, aid evolution, before ending the cycle. At the end of the cycle everything converges into the Crunch. Then with Big Bang everything is restarted and as we saw in the scan the Force gradually regains its sentience. It is reborn in the Big Bang event.
Originally posted by celestialdemon
The Watcher in the third mentions the PF being the spark that ignites creation, which I agree with, but again doesn't say big bang.
The Phoenix Force is the ambient energies of creation as stated on panel. Its avatar, be it the Firebird or a human host manifest within reality to set off the Big Bang or to burn away reality at the end of the cycle.
Originally posted by celestialdemon
The rest of the scans just mention how the PF is the fuel of creation, which again I will agree with.
Then how can you doubt that Phoenix is the Big Bang? The Big Bang is the energies of creation. You have scans stating Phoenix to be the Big Bang, scans saying the Phoenix Force is the fuel of creation and that stars and all life derive from its energies. Its not hard to see where Marvel was going CD 😬
Originally posted by celestialdemon
Ultimately, none of this proves power, only function. I'm not arguing that the PF doesn't have the power to destroy creation. That's it's whole purpose. However, that doesn't make Jean the most powerful mutant.
All of this proves that the Phoenix Force is the fundamental force from which many of the other cosmics derive. Not only does it keep the cycle revolving, but its power fuels it.
Your query was regarding Phoenix as the Big Bang. I have answered that. If you had questioned how powerful it is then i would provided you with a number of scans depicting some of the best feats in Marvel.
No mutant, not Wanda, Jaspers or Franklin Richards have outdone the White Phoenix in terms of feats.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This doesn't contradict the other origins at all. It doesn't totally re-write what came before it adds more detail.The Phoenix Force by canon is the life force of reality, the energies of creation. The previous Galactus origins stated that Galactus developed with Eternity within the Cosmic Egg and was transformed by the energies of creation.
This issue of Fantastic Four doesn't change that, its just verifying the point that the PF is the energies of creation within Marvel. That isnt a change to Galactus' origin, its clarification.
In all of the other origin stories, it doesn't mention anything about the Phoenix Force. Even in the scan, Richards
The second scan illustrates the point that the Phoenix is the Big Bang made sentient. You have the the Big Bang depicted on panel and the Phoenix Force illustrated as its energies.
That coincides with Reeds comments in the F4 scan.
The Phoenix is the ambient energies of reality. During the creation cycle it acts within reality through avatars who help restart the cycle, aid evolution, before ending the cycle. At the end of the cycle everything converges into the Crunch. Then with Big Bang everything is restarted and as we saw in the scan the Force gradually regains its sentience. It is reborn in the Big Bang event.
The Phoenix Force is the ambient energies of creation as stated on panel. Its avatar, be it the Firebird or a human host manifest within reality to set off the Big Bang or to burn away reality at the end of the cycle.
Then how can you doubt that Phoenix is the Big Bang? The Big Bang is the energies of creation. You have scans stating Phoenix to be the Big Bang, scans saying the Phoenix Force is the fuel of creation and that stars and all life derive from its energies. Its not hard to see where Marvel was going CD 😬
All of this proves that the Phoenix Force is the fundamental force from which many of the other cosmics derive. Not only does it keep the cycle revolving, but its power fuels it.
I'm not going to go into a lengthy debate with you as it has been done before by people with access to more resources than I have. From what I've read, it is never specifically said that the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang, except in the scan with Reed. Even it's bio states it was born from the Big Bang, not the Big Bang itself.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Your query was regarding Phoenix as the Big Bang. I have answered that. If you had questioned how powerful it is then i would provided you with a number of scans depicting some of the best feats in Marvel.No mutant, not Wanda, Jaspers or Franklin Richards have outdone the White Phoenix in terms of feats.
I've seen your scans before, including your lauded "greatest feat in Marvel". Impressive, yes. More impressive than what Wanda or Jaspers were? No.
Originally posted by celestialdemon
I'm not going to go into a lengthy debate with you as it has been done before by people with access to more resources than I have. From what I've read, it is never specifically said that the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang, except in the scan with Reed. Even it's bio states it was born from the Big Bang, not the Big Bang itself.
The Big Bang is the energies of creation. It is just the initial stage. You have a scan stating that the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang. You then have a scan showing the Phoenix Force to be the energies of the Big Bang turned sentient. You also have scans illustrating the point that all life, planets and stars derive from the energies of the Phoenix Force and yet you need it stated for you in every instance that the Phoenix Force stared off as the Big Bang?
Dont be fallacious CD.
The point is stated on panel, plus on top of that you have many instances on panel where the Forces power and nature are depicted on panel and those depictions are in line with Reeds comments.
The Big Bang is the sum of all energy within a universe. You cant have the Big Bang and then a separate power from which all stars, planets and life derive from.
The bio never states that the Phoenix is born from the Big Bang, it states that it is REBORN. The Phoenix is a constant within reality, inlike the abstracts. The Force is the formless energies of teh Big Bang, however following on from that event, the sentient Force as we know it is reborn every creation cycle i.e over time it becomes more than the ambient life force of reality and instead regains sentience:
Originally posted by celestialdemon
've seen your scans before, including your lauded "greatest feat in Marvel". Impressive, yes. More impressive than what Wanda or Jaspers were? No.
Wanda altered the reality of 616 to coincide with her vision, creating House Of M. She placed a veil over 616, she simply changed everyones perceptions of reality, which is why Layla Miller was able to wake characters up and get them to see past this veil Wanda had erected and see into the true 616 reality. Wanda just painted over what was already there.
616 Jaspers as stated in his bio and on panel merely warped the Earth. Its stated that if he was allowed to continue unhindered then his reality warp would gradually have overcome the omniverse.
There are a few implicatuons to that.
1) On panel 616 Jaspers onbly ever warped Planet Earth.
2) He never commanded total control of an entire reality just like that in the fashion of Thanos with the IG(where he could will half the universes population to die just like that) or Phoenix manipulating the entire matter of 616 in her palm just like that. His warp was a gradual build up which would expand unless he was stopped. He was stopped and at the point of that happening, he'd only warped the Earth.
Please reference marvunapp.com and his bio for confirmation of that point.
With all of that in mind, your assessment is incorrect and stems from ignorance of of the storylines behnd all of the aforementioned characters.
If you have need of further information, dont hesistate to ask.
Until then, that will be all. 😬
Further to my point about Braddock. Whats greater?
Someone who can manipulate the sub atomic matter of the entire planet just like that, or someone who creates a reality warp that consumes a state thats would gradually expand to consume a solar system unless stopped.
If Jubilee was given free reign to destroy as much of the planet as she could over an unrestricted time, she could eventually blow up most of the surface world. Does that make her greater than someone like Thor who in a instant can cover a state in a storm?
Jaspers could never assume total control over a reality in seconds. Never has that been demonstrated, not even by alternate reality counterparts. Its a gradual build-up of his reality warp that eventually allows him control on that scale.
And yet because he has been foreseen to consume the omniverse gradually without prevention, he's greater than powers who can consume or manipulate entire realities just like that with a gesture? 😬
Judge by the same standards.
What do you think Phoenix could do if allowed to gradually manipulate reality upon reality over time?
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
MJJ can only warp Earth?then wtf is this?
It was seen and predicted that MJJ would cancel the entire Omniverse if not stopped.
Your own evidence supports my point.
Its stated "If thisworld falls.."
616 Jaspers warped Earth and only Earth as stated in his last official bio and as shown on panel.
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/madjimj2.htm
(Check the summary for Might World of Marvel #9)
Whilst Jaspers may have allegedly had great potential, on panel he only ever warped the planet.
I think the list should just be the omega level mutants. I would not consider the Phoenix a mutant, like posted earlier it is a functional part of the universe. Like Galactus, or Death. Where is Iceman on this list, he at least has the potential to be an Omega level, but I would say Xman. Nate Grey.
Originally posted by Xplosive
Nothing from White Phoenix comes close to the Scarlet Witch.Scarlet Witch is the most powerful mutant and one of the most powreful beings ever in MU (altho there are more mutants among most powerful beings ever in MU such MJJ, Jamie, WPOTC).
Two of the three were present during her warp yet the place they were was hit by the chaos wave while the place where Jean was remained untouched
