All-Encompassing Debate

Earlier tonight, a couple of friends and I got into an argument/debate about what is more important, the Olympics or film. Being a movie buff etc., I sided on the side of film, while they seemed to think that the Olympics were more important to the world/people (them being more into athletics, but still intellectual). All of us offered valid reasons, mine being the film can teach one about love, beauty, history, morals, politics, etc. Their's being that the Olympics symbolize unity and peace, determination, etc. Obviously, our arguments were more fleshed out, but I'm just giving you guys the nutshell synopsis.

Anyway, the argument and the ideas expanded and I came up with the idea of requesting KMC's thoughts/opinions on a broader, more-encompassing version of this argument.

Out of the choices listed: literature, film, music or athletics/sports, which do you think:

A) Has been the most influential/important in your life personally? No answer is wrong, but provide details and explanations to vaildate your point.

B) Has had the greatest role in shaping the world thusfar? Which has had the greatest positive affect on our culture as a whole? Which has had the greatest negative affect?

C) Offers the greatest potential in unifying people and bringing them together, making them learn/grow. Key word is potential.

Note: I decided to keep religion and politics out of this, but if anyone feels they must include one or the other, feel free. At the same time, however, I'd like to discuss the options I listed earlier as well.

That's about it, have at it.

Edit: If a mod could create a poll with the four choices I listed up there, I'd appreciate it, it slipped my mind. Thanks.

A.) Literature
B.) Literature
C.) Literature.

Why would sports even be a valid choice? If it wasn't a quick way to money, hardly anyone would ever consider it.

Are we allowed to point out that film, especially in the way it is being used here (ie: not the technical skills and presentation unique to film, but its ability to teach and express), comes directly from literature?

and ya, art>sports

and the Olympics can be seen as divisive as much as they can be seen as promoting unity.

so, a,b,c) literature

Science ftw in all categories... 🙂

But of the choices I pick the arts (literature, music etc) as a whole over sport in terms of contribution to humanity...

Shakespeare, Mozart, Beethoven, da Vinci et al. These names that shaped the culture of their time and have been remembered and renowned for centuries and presumably will be for centuries to come.

Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps are fantastic and remarkable athletes, but they don't really shape or influence the world particularly. They're in the headlines for a bit and then disappear from them until the Olympics come around again in four years time. And while 8 gold medals and being the world's fastest man are phenomenal achievements they probably won't stand the test of time as well as Hamlet, The Marriage of Figaro, Symphony No 9 or the Mona Lisa. And more on topic, but to a lesser extent film epics of the last century.

A: music...for me it's always been an accompaniment to life...

B: literature...it can't be denied...the written word has more power over more people than anything in the history of man...the Bible, the Quran...enough said

C: sport...while film, music and literature often emphasise cultural differences...sport are generally the same...particularly athletics..all over the world...granted some cultures are more adept at some sports than other...Chinese at ping pong, US at basketball, britain at water based sports such as sailing and rowing....but the rules are universal

nothing else has nations from almost every country in the world competing together than the Olympic games...

already in this Olympics we've seen Russian and Georgian athletes side by side on the podium when their respective countries were blowing the shit out of each other

film is more just a mirror for society...or escapism...i dont think it has massive cultural implications

Although I agree that for the C) category, film generally does little to "unify" people. And I agree that the Olympics and the spirit it is meant to encompass does far more to promote unity. Doesn't that example in a way also illustrate the limitations of sport in terms of uniting people? For fleeting moments two people may have stood side-by-side for a photo-op while Russia continues to trample over South Ossetia, before, during and after their shooting match...

I suppose it's a glass half-empty half-full thing though... I think I may just be too much the cynic.

true...it could be argued that those 2 athletes embracing actually meant nothing in real terms...but symbolism can have a massive effect

look at tianaman square in China when the man stood in front of the tanks...the reality is he didn't accomplish anything then...but the symbolic gesture reverbarated around the world

in sport you only need to look at Jesse Owens in the 1936 Berlin Olympics...in reality he only got a few records in sport...but him doing so against the backdrop of a facist and racist regime led by Hitler...

his four gold medals made hitler refuse to acknowledge or congradulate any medal winners because he refused to shake hands with Owens

then, of course, in the same year there was the Max Schmeling v Joe Louis fight...highly symbolic and significant

A Iranian martial artist, considered by some to be a contender for the gold and certainly heavily the favorite in his bout, refused to fight in his match against an Israeli martial artist as he did not consider Israel a nation and thus they should not have sent a fighter to the Olympics. By refusing to fight he forfeited the match and brought international condemnation to Iran.

Sports are a mirror of society.

Originally posted by jaden101
true...it could be argued that those 2 athletes embracing actually meant nothing in real terms...but symbolism can have a massive effect

look at tianaman square in China when the man stood in front of the tanks...the reality is he didn't accomplish anything then...but the symbolic gesture reverbarated around the world

A symbol used to slam the authoritarian Chinese is a symbol of peace and unity?

resistance, sure, but resistance isn't peace nor is it solidarity.

Originally posted by jaden101
in sport you only need to look at Jesse Owens in the 1936 Berlin Olympics...in reality he only got a few records in sport...but him doing so against the backdrop of a facist and racist regime led by Hitler...

his four gold medals made hitler refuse to acknowledge or congradulate any medal winners because he refused to shake hands with Owens

Again though, this is divisive and not uniting. Had Hitler, the racist fascist, been able to put aside his differences and congratulate Owens, sure, I'd see your point. But he didn't. It was an act of victory over fascism, not of unity between athletes...

Originally posted by jaden101
then, of course, in the same year there was the Max Schmeling v Joe Louis fight...highly symbolic and significant

I'm not familiar with this

I understand you aren't saying, with these points necessarily, that sport bring people together (although you did mention it before), one of your points was that film just "mirrors" life, as if that were a real criticism. How then, can the same not be said of sport?

Tommie Smith and John Carlos raising the fist on the podium was powerful, but surely only a reflection of society and the political atmosphere at the time.

oh, and I'm the spam king:

There is also the USSR vs Canada hockey tournament that occurred in the 70s. While it did open up the NHL to allow in European players and did change the sport to reflect that the world was now globalizing (again, sport reflecting life), to most Canadians, and even to this day, it is remembered as a victory over Russia, and in the Canadian narrative it is not simply a sporting victory. Disney actually stole the story and made it about Americans with similar narrative tones, I forget the name though....

Originally posted by inimalist
oh, and I'm the spam king:

There is also the USSR vs Canada hockey tournament that occurred in the 70s. While it did open up the NHL to allow in European players and did change the sport to reflect that the world was now globalizing (again, sport reflecting life), to most Canadians, and even to this day, it is remembered as a victory over Russia, and in the Canadian narrative it is not simply a sporting victory. Disney actually stole the story and made it about Americans with similar narrative tones, I forget the name though....

It was "Driving Miss Daisy." Starring Samuel L. Jackson as Mace Windu.

Originally posted by inimalist
A symbol used to slam the authoritarian Chinese is a symbol of peace and unity?

resistance, sure, but resistance isn't peace nor is it solidarity.

Again though, this is divisive and not uniting. Had Hitler, the racist fascist, been able to put aside his differences and congratulate Owens, sure, I'd see your point. But he didn't. It was an act of victory over fascism, not of unity between athletes...

I'm not familiar with this

I understand you aren't saying, with these points necessarily, that sport bring people together (although you did mention it before), one of your points was that film just "mirrors" life, as if that were a real criticism. How then, can the same not be said of sport?

Tommie Smith and John Carlos raising the fist on the podium was powerful, but surely only a reflection of society and the political atmosphere at the time.

it united the Chinese student population to fight against their regime and it united the world in condemnation of the Chinese human rights abuses

Jesse Owens was also seen as being an ambassador for sport and promoting equal rights for blacks through his actions...

as for the Max Schmeling thing...he was a poster boy for facism in 1936...he came to the US to fight Joe Louis and was defeated...at which point he said he was relieved to no longer be being used to promote facism in Nazi Germany and helped unite many Germans against the regime

there is also the aspect in sport of making political statements...the refusal of cricket teams to play against Zimbabwe may seem trite at face value...but they highlight issues for people who would otherwise be ignorant...someone may love cricket but hate politics might say to themselves..."well why are they refusing to play?" and find out these issues for themselves

Well if the IOC really wanted to promote an advancement of peace, unified humanity etc etc it should have really refused the Beijing Olympics bid on the grounds of China's human rights record. And specify to the Chinese Government that they wouldn't host the Olympics until such matters were rectified or at least dramatically improved. Ignoring all the crap about fake fireworks and lipsynching (who gives a shit? It's just an opening show) a backdrop of Tibetan unrest and police issuing old grannies warnings of being sent to hard labour camps for simply lodging applications to protest against their homes being confiscated does not reflect well.

But then the fact that there was a Berlin Olympics in Nazi Germany or the Moscow games... really shows the IOC's record on such matters...

At least in 1980 countries boycotted the games.

ok, but to the matter of the thread

these issues are hardly as important, say, as the writings of Jeremy Bentham or Rousseau in promoting human equality and unity, as they reflect rather than drive international politics. The banning of South Africa from the olympics reflected that the world had already condemned racism, and the individual efforts of the Bishop Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela are surely more important than the international shame of not competing in sport.

That thing about Schmeling is awesome though 🙂

Originally posted by inimalist
oh, and I'm the spam king:

There is also the USSR vs Canada hockey tournament that occurred in the 70s. While it did open up the NHL to allow in European players and did change the sport to reflect that the world was now globalizing (again, sport reflecting life), to most Canadians, and even to this day, it is remembered as a victory over Russia, and in the Canadian narrative it is not simply a sporting victory. Disney actually stole the story and made it about Americans with similar narrative tones, I forget the name though....

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Miracle, and it's not the story of the Canadian team but the American team that was made of college players that beat USSR in the Semifinals.

i know

its hockey though

the idea that an American hockey movie was made offends my nationalist sensibilities (also, the mighty ducks, boooooooo, lol)

but thanks for the title 😉 even if it is the exact same as summit on ice

Originally posted by inimalist
Disney actually stole the story and made it about Americans with similar narrative tones, I forget the name though....

Originally posted by SnakeEyes
Out of the choices listed: literature, film, music or athletics/sports, which do you think:

A) Has been the most influential/important in your life personally? No answer is wrong, but provide details and explanations to vaildate your point.

B) Has had the greatest role in shaping the world thusfar? Which has had the greatest positive affect on our culture as a whole? Which has had the greatest negative affect?

C) Offers the greatest potential in unifying people and bringing them together, making them learn/grow. Key word is potential.

A. Literature
B. Literature
C. Toughie. I'm tempted to say sports, because you don't need to be literate to benefit (and much of the world isn't); plus film requires some comparatively sophisticated equipment (at the very least, film and a projector). On the other hand: given the very nature of sports--competitiveness--this may divide as much as unify. As for music: too diverse to unify. Eg, I can't imagine that--overall--the hip-hop / pop-rock gotta-have-noise-in-my-head-25/8 generation would really appreciate classical music.