in the DSM IV, Sociopathy and psychopathy have been labeled as Antisocial Personality Disorder:
DSM
Diagnostic Criteria1. There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:
1. failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
2. deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
3. impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
4. irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
5. reckless disregard for safety of self or others
6. consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
7. lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another
2. The individual is at least age 18 years.
3. There is evidence of Conduct Disorder with onset before age 15 years.
4. The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia or a Manic Episode.
Originally posted by Deja~vu
What would be the red flags that would alert you to people like this
generally speaking, there are no red flags, aside from a proper psychiatric diagnosis
Originally posted by lord xyz
I don't know, but I've come across as harsh.
contrary to popular scientific belief prior to proper investigation, people who have APD do not suffer from lack of self confidence or low self worth.
and your harshness, to them, would be irrelevant by the definition of the term
Originally posted by leonheartmm
^but i do not beleive that they are completely impervious to it.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The basis of therapy is totally counter to the basic thought pattern of sociopaths. You can't appeal to the emotions of someone who either lacks or ignores them completely and you can't argue logic with a person who insist the validity of his/her own lies in the face of absolute evidence against them.
actually:
Cognitive behaviour therapy for violent men with antisocial personality disorder in the community: an exploratory randomized controlled trial.
Davidson KM, Tyrer P, Tata P, Cooke D, Gumley A, Ford I, Walker A, Bezlyak V, Seivewright H, Robertson H, Crawford MJ.
psychological medicine
30, 1-9, 2008.
BACKGROUND: Little information exists on treatment effectiveness in antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). We investigated the feasibility and effectiveness of carrying out a randomized controlled trial of cognitive behaviour therapy (CBT) in men with ASPD who were aggressive.
Method: This was an exploratory two-centre, randomized controlled trial in a community setting. Fifty-two adult men with a diagnosis of ASPD, with acts of aggression in the 6 months prior to the study, were randomized to either treatment as usual (TAU) plus CBT, or usual treatment alone. Change over 12 months of follow-up was assessed in the occurrence of any act of aggression and also in terms of alcohol misuse, mental state, beliefs and social functioning.
RESULTS: The follow-up rate was 79%. At 12 months, both groups reported a decrease in the occurrence of any acts of verbal or physical aggression. Trends in the data, in favour of CBT, were noted for problematic drinking, social functioning and beliefs about others.
CONCLUSIONS: CBT did not improve outcomes more than usual treatment for men with ASPD who are aggressive and living in the community in this exploratory study. However, the data suggest that a larger study is required to fully assess the effectiveness of CBT in reducing aggression, alcohol misuse and improving social functioning and view of others. It is feasible to carry out a rigorous randomized controlled trial in this group.
bold added for emphasis.
Overall, however, the point I want to make is that this is largely a condition that requires more research before anything like either of these statements can be said. Largely I side with Sym on this one, though I believe Leo is correct, were it possible to motivate a APD person to want to change, they would not be immune, which may be what is going on above, but let me say, this is most certainly not my area of psych.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Only through brain damage.
tumors also
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I wouldn't define one. Psychology rarely has anything so precise.
To further highlight this, the first DSM criteria is:
DSM
1. failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
something like chronic marijuana use, would likely not qualify as this.
Nor would breaking some laws in nations that abuse human rights.
Etc.
again to just parrot Sym, there aren't lines like this in psychology.
Originally posted by inimalistIsn't Socio passive aggressive and Psycho aggressive?
in the DSM IV, Sociopathy and psychopathy have been labeled as Antisocial Personality Disorder:
contrary to popular scientific belief prior to proper investigation, people who have APD do not suffer from lack of self confidence or low self worth.I'd still avoid them.and your harshness, to them, would be irrelevant by the definition of the term
Originally posted by lord xyz
Isn't Socio passive aggressive and Psycho aggressive?
as far as I know, and some researchers believe that the distinction should still be made, their stuff is easy to find on Pub Med (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/) and the wiki for psychopathy looks promising (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopath)
Originally posted by lord xyz
I would've categorised it as "Irrational acts against authority/enemies/people" because it's the irrationality that makes it of a psychopath.
it is the complete indifference to the effect on the person or other people that makes it psychopathy.
for instance, someone who TPs a house, is not doing real harm to someone. There are also probably underlying causes, like home trouble or feeling of being picked on by the principal. But most specifically, it shows general regard for societal norms, like lashing out in a acceptable way.
The dead puppy shows total lack of empathy for the puppy, its owners, and the principal to a degree that shows no regard for social norms.
The more I think about it, the more I like them (psychopathy and sociopathy) as one term, but I'm sure nuance is lost.
Originally posted by inimalistWouldn't that make anyone who likes to see murders etc die and be sent to prsion, psychopaths?
it is the complete indifference to the effect on the person or other people that makes it psychopathy.for instance, someone who TPs a house, is not doing real harm to someone. There are also probably underlying causes, like home trouble or feeling of being picked on by the principal. But most specifically, it shows general regard for societal norms, like lashing out in a acceptable way.
The dead puppy shows total lack of empathy for the puppy, its owners, and the principal to a degree that shows no regard for social norms.
The more I think about it, the more I like them (psychopathy and sociopathy) as one term, but I'm sure nuance is lost.
Originally posted by lord xyz
"The dead puppy shows total lack of empathy for the puppy, its owners, and the principal to a degree that shows no regard for social norms." Take out the social norms part, yeah it is.
The destructive behavior is a major psychopathy. Simply liking to watch isn't enough. If you find death funny, you're a creep. If you murder people because it amuses you, you're a psychopath.
Originally posted by lord xyz
"The dead puppy shows total lack of empathy for the puppy, its owners, and the principal to a degree that shows no regard for social norms." Take out the social norms part, yeah it is.
1) I'm not a psychotherapist, meaning what I say is not definitive on this matter anyways, meaning you can't extrapolate from something I might have typed to something like that
2) That is a overgeneralized statement meant to quickly give you the idea of what my opinion of those two scenarios was
3) Disorder diagnosises are based on multiple symptoms in patterns of behaviour, not single events. The puppy event, in isolation, would not be evidence of psychopathic behaviour. Actually, it would, but alone it would not be enough for a proper diagnosis, human behaviour is far too variable for this
4) The line between what is and what isn't a social norm is fuzzy. Killing a puppy and TPing a house were chosen, presumably, because they are extreme cases. A human taking pleasure at the justice of someone else suffering clearly falls into this gray region, especially given that you are talking about the prison establishment, something that is a social norm.
5) You aren't a psychologist, so without someone doing direct empirical results that you have seen, its really not advisable for you to make leaps like this.
6) The statement seems unnecessarily politically motivated
7) With regard to the actual content of comparing someone taking pleasure at hurtful justice vs a child murdering a puppy and leaving it in his principals car. To begin with, you would have to prove that there is something abnormal about taking pleasure in justice. I am perfectly happy when a murder is put behind bars, in fact, I take personal pleasure knowing they will never harm someone outside of prison again (lets just assume perfect world for now, it doesn't change the point and needlessly complicates wording if not). This may not be a good example, because I am also concerned about prisoner rights.
Take my mother for example. A firm believer that someone who breaks the rules of society deserves no rights. She is totally indifferent to the suffering of people in prison (blah, to clarify, my mother isn't a monster, I'm just being overly general). The fact that this supports authority, for one, makes it seem non-phychopathic. Along this line of reasoning, my mother also fails a proper psychiatric analysis for ASPD, so she isn't psychopathic.
EDIT: The point being, that someone who takes pleasure in justice, even at someone else's expense, is not showing a pattern of behaviour in line with psychopathy. If one assumes that the puppy murderer has a patter of behaviour that is similar, odds are they do fit the behavioural profile.
I'll not rant and let you clarify whats unclear 🙂
Originally posted by lord xyz
What characteristics do you have?
To make things simpler I'll just copy+paste the ones that have been listed that relate to me the most.
3. impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
4. irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
6. consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.
7. lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.
And aside from that I just have a problem communicating with people in general, so I avoid them. I avoid going to parties, I avoid public speaking, sports, or anything where I might have to talk to someone or interact with someone. The only people I can stand are my closest friends, and there aren't very many of those, though the number is growing steadily. I've gotten better.
weird
is it something that affects you day to day?
To an extent, yeah. As noted above I'm not very social. I will sit in a classroom and fail an entire semester's worth of lessons, rather then tell the teacher that I don't understand or, even more mortifying, raise my hand. 😐
I have a girlfriend though, and my ASPD seems to have become less severe, so doctors aren't sure now if I actually even have it or if I might just have a less severe form of autism, which would make sense because my older brother has a severe case of autism. It might be hereditary.
Originally posted by inimalistI see what you mean.
1) I'm not a psychotherapist, meaning what I say is not definitive on this matter anyways, meaning you can't extrapolate from something I might have typed to something like that2) That is a overgeneralized statement meant to quickly give you the idea of what my opinion of those two scenarios was
3) Disorder diagnosises are based on multiple symptoms in patterns of behaviour, not single events. The puppy event, in isolation, would not be evidence of psychopathic behaviour. Actually, it would, but alone it would not be enough for a proper diagnosis, human behaviour is far too variable for this
4) The line between what is and what isn't a social norm is fuzzy. Killing a puppy and TPing a house were chosen, presumably, because they are extreme cases. A human taking pleasure at the justice of someone else suffering clearly falls into this gray region, especially given that you are talking about the prison establishment, something that is a social norm.
5) You aren't a psychologist, so without someone doing direct empirical results that you have seen, its really not advisable for you to make leaps like this.
6) The statement seems unnecessarily politically motivated
7) With regard to the actual content of comparing someone taking pleasure at hurtful justice vs a child murdering a puppy and leaving it in his principals car. To begin with, you would have to prove that there is something abnormal about taking pleasure in justice. I am perfectly happy when a murder is put behind bars, in fact, I take personal pleasure knowing they will never harm someone outside of prison again (lets just assume perfect world for now, it doesn't change the point and needlessly complicates wording if not). This may not be a good example, because I am also concerned about prisoner rights.
Take my mother for example. A firm believer that someone who breaks the rules of society deserves no rights. She is totally indifferent to the suffering of people in prison (blah, to clarify, my mother isn't a monster, I'm just being overly general). The fact that this supports authority, for one, makes it seem non-phychopathic. Along this line of reasoning, my mother also fails a proper psychiatric analysis for ASPD, so she isn't psychopathic.
EDIT: The point being, that someone who takes pleasure in [b]justice
, even at someone else's expense, is not showing a pattern of behaviour in line with psychopathy. If one assumes that the puppy murderer has a patter of behaviour that is similar, odds are they do fit the behavioural profile.I'll not rant and let you clarify whats unclear 🙂 [/B]
Originally posted by Blax_HydraliskI'm kinda like that, but not so much. If I was diagnosed, I don't think I'd be classed as having it.
To make things simpler I'll just copy+paste the ones that have been listed that relate to me the most.3. impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
4. irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
6. consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.
7. lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.And aside from that I just have a problem communicating with people in general, so I avoid them. I avoid going to parties, I avoid public speaking, sports, or anything where I might have to talk to someone or interact with someone. The only people I can stand are my closest friends, and there aren't very many of those, though the number is growing steadily. I've gotten better.
To an extent, yeah. As noted above I'm not very social. I will sit in a classroom and fail an entire semester's worth of lessons, rather then tell the teacher that I don't understand or, even more mortifying, raise my hand. 😐
I have a girlfriend though, and my ASPD seems to have become less severe, so doctors aren't sure now if I actually even have it or if I might just have a less severe form of autism, which would make sense because my older brother has a severe case of autism. It might be hereditary.
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
To an extent, yeah. As noted above I'm not very social. I will sit in a classroom and fail an entire semester's worth of lessons, rather then tell the teacher that I don't understand or, even more mortifying, raise my hand. 😐I have a girlfriend though, and my ASPD seems to have become less severe, so doctors aren't sure now if I actually even have it or if I might just have a less severe form of autism, which would make sense because my older brother has a severe case of autism. It might be hereditary.
thats lame 🙁
though, congrats on it getting better, thats got to be all you, and shit, probably not easy!